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Lets be historically incorrect for a min or two....

...lets go back into history and consider this a scenario:

When the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Germany and they signed the peace agreement and such. What would have happened if USSR rather than stopping invaded the rest of Europe. Would the Americans be able to stop them? And if Europe did come under Soviet control what would Europe be like now?

You don't have to participate in this if you want to, and I don't want a history lesson. We are predicting what would have happened had Stalin gone to invade the rest of Germany rather than just stay in Eastern Europe right after the battle of berlin.

Re: Lets be historically incorrect for a min or two....

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid ...lets go back into history and consider this a scenario: When the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Germany and they signed the peace agreement and such. What would have happened if USSR rather than stopping invaded the rest of Europe. Would the Americans be able to stop them? And if Europe did come under Soviet control what would Europe be like now? You don't have to participate in this if you want to, and I don't want a history lesson. We are predicting what would have happened had Stalin gone to invade the rest of Germany rather than just stay in Eastern Europe right after the battle of berlin.

He (Joe) would have overextended his military capacity. No way a Soviet empire that comprised of most of Europe would have held together long.

The UK, strategically would have been almost impossible for Joey to conquer w/o letting up on other fronts.

But at least Israel wouldn't exist!

Re: Re: Lets be historically incorrect for a min or two....

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey He (Joe) would have overextended his military capacity. No way a Soviet empire that comprised of most of Europe would have held together long. The UK, strategically would have been almost impossible for Joey to conquer w/o letting up on other fronts. But at least Israel wouldn't exist!

I have a weird feeling about this, but Joe would have been able to hold Europe together. He was just that type of individual who would be able to pull such a feat.

THIS is what would have happened.

The Soviet Union lost 10.7 million soldiers and 11.5 million civilians in WWII, almost 14% of their population. I don't think they would have had the man power to do much damage in Europe.

Re: Re: Re: Lets be historically incorrect for a min or two....

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid I have a weird feeling about this, but Joe would have been able to hold Europe together. He was just that type of individual who would be able to pull such a feat.

You wanna have sexytime with him or something?

The people of the USSR were tired, weak, starving, they wanted nothing of another war, Stalin obviously saw this or else he would have pushed on Europe after the US withdrew.

I'd post some actual historical information on this discussion, but I dont think anyone on this thread is going to appreciate it.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium I'd post some actual historical information on this discussion, but I dont think anyone on this thread is going to appreciate it.

You going to need an ambulance to get that pole out of your arse or just going to learn to live with it?

So put me on ignore again if you dont like it.

quote:

We are predicting what would have happened had Stalin gone to invade the rest of Germany rather than just stay in Eastern Europe right after the battle of berlin.

Bit hard to say, there was certainly a lot of allied forces in Germany and through europe, not just the american forces and there was some sense of civility there amongst the USSR/Allied forces which I honestly don't think would have wanted to actually fight each other. They'd both gone through tremendous losses to get to Germany so it wouldnt suprise me if they'd actually disobeyed the order. From memory though, there was probably more than enough soviets on the ground to do the job and they would have certainly annexed Berlin, the airpower of the Allies though at that point was massive and easy enough to deploy which would have nullified a lot of the soviet advantage like armour and artillery.

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Originally posted by Lilith You going to need an ambulance to get that pole out of your arse or just going to learn to live with it?

lol, I think he sat on fusilli Putin

Could the USSR have taken all of Europe after the fall of Nazi Germany?

In the short run yes. They could have.

Not to downplay the feats of the UK, Canada, and the US for their role in securing western europe, but the Soviets had fought a bitter campaign from the depths of their homeland to the capital of their enemy. Had Stalin wished for them to roll on over and continue west he could have easily done it. They had the momentum and the man power.

The thing is they wouldn't have held them for long. The US was the only country with atomic weapons at the time. The US, using bomber bases in the UK could have easily desmitated the Soviets with nuclear weapons as the USSR did not have the airforce or the navy at that point to hold control of the air or the sea.


Now if you want to talk about USSR taking Europe in the 50's or the 80's thats another story...

If you're asking whether the Soviets could have taken Europe alone without any outside help the answer is debatable. I doubt the Soviets could have lost, however, Germany might have been able to successfully sue for peace.

Now if you're asking if the Soviets could have steamrolled through the allies to take Western Europe I would say absolutely not. The Soviets didn't develop atomic weaponry until 1949. The Soviet population and homeland was decimated. And they would have had to face against a combined US, Britain, and German army. Many German units surrendered to the Americans under the assumption that they would join forces to attack the Soviets. Then consider the French, Poles, Indians, Chinese, etc. All in all, the Russians sacrificed 20 million people against the Germans who were fighting a two front war. If you think that they could make the same sacrifice against an even stronger opponent well than ...

I don't think Stalin would have had the supply lines needed to take on the US/UK that far away from Russian factories. Thanks to Hitler there was a very extensive rail system once you hit the German half of Poland, but until then it's all trucks or planes. That means food and small arms, but no tanks or heavy weaponry since most of that stuff couldn't be airlifted at the time. Then you have the fun issue of getting your petrolium from the Urals to Western Germany and maybe even France faster than the other team can take out the vehicles that need it. Russia would have been pushed back, but the fighting would have been much more to their advantage the further they're pushed back. My guess, stalemate. As long as Truman doesn't handle post-war negotiations the cold war never starts after that.

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Originally posted by WM2 there was a very extensive rail system once you hit the German half of Poland, but until then it's all trucks or planes

I think this is incorrect, there were Russian rail systems, but they were different specs than the German ones, so everything being transported needed to be unloaded and then reloaded onto different trains.

I might be wrong.

You are correct about the gauge of the rails...

Interesting tidbit, GE made a series of electric locomotives for use in the USSR after the war, but due to political turmoil/rising cold war they were never delivered. They were re-tooled for standard North American guage rail and were called "Little Joes" after Stalin...



These, along with Box-Cab Electrics are by far my most favorite electric era locomotives...


Anyways. I think the Soviets could have pushed the Allies back into france... probably to the spanish border before being repelled using nuclear weapons and a massive surge in military strength.

Most of this would need to be based on surprise though for the Russians...

In the end the Russians would have lost.

Not until the 50's did the Soviets have enough forces to engage the former Allied, now NATO forces in decisive combat. Russia could have rolled over West Germany for a good part of the 50's and 60's and then again in the 1980's.

When I tried to do this (playing risk of course) Australia smoked me

Logistically, i don't think Russia had a prayer, as respondants have already illustrated, they were outgunned, and against superiour air power, I think Russia would've been incapable of maintaining the pace that such an invasion would've required. The only wildcard, in my mind, is the Russian Muhammed-Imar-Bruce-Lee-Chuck-Norrisesque ability to fight in winter.

bump*

Sorry if this topic disturbs some of you

How about if Stalin went into the Middle East(saudi Arabia, Omon, Yemen) right after the war. Would the Allies have gone to war with them than? Or would the USSR have easily conquered the ME and made them a part of the USSR. This would in turn we wouldn't be having problems with radical islam and the region wouldn't be so strange in western standards??

Alright, I'll stop being a dick because I am feeling very good today so I'll post.

Basically, there was no way Russia was going to sweep through the entire Europe. Earlier setbacks on the Eastern Front killed 11 million troops, and injured millions of other soldiers for a long time. By the time Russians met Americans in Central Germany, it was about 2-4 million Soviet troops versus 5-6 million Allied forces. Soviets were desperately short on resources, supplies, and were facing a ruined country at home. Allies, however, only destroyed 106 Nazi divisions (as compared to 600+ by Soviets), so they held advantage at that point, in manpower, supplies, arms and support from other countries. Stalin would have never defeated Allies at that point. But they would have not attacked either.


When Allies landed in France and Italy, Stalin already called it publicly that he lost the war. Why?
Turns out, in 1939, Soviet Union started a slow military buildup and massive mobilization campaign, after treaty with Hitler was signed. He knew of Hitler's plans to attack UK, USA. He was preparing a massive army to "liberate" Europe under communism. He was going to do that when German armies landed in UK, and slanted the attack on Nazi Germany for July 1941.

No wonder why when Germany attacked, Soviets were caught by surprise. 5 million troops became prisoners. 5000 planes destroyed. 1000 tanks captured. Heavy artillery, howitzers, TRAINS filled with ammuinition, TANKS ON TRAINS ready to roll into Germany - clear indication that Stalin prepared an invasion. A great book proving this, with pictures is written by a former Soviet high intelligence GRU agent Suvorov, in his book "Ledokol" or "Icebreaker". When you see Soviet photos of hundreds of tanks waiting on train tracks, howitzer units (meant for attacks, not defense), thousands of long-range aircraft, paratrooper units for behind enemy lines campaign - you know the real intentions.

If he managed to attack first, today Europe would be Soviet Union from France in the west, Italy, Serbia in the south.

Or, even better, if Hitler and Stalin managed to get on even terms and become allies, which never materialized because they didnt trust each other - today we would be living in a dictatorship for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey I think this is incorrect, there were Russian rail systems, but they were different specs than the German ones, so everything being transported needed to be unloaded and then reloaded onto different trains. I might be wrong.

The problem is they didn't always overlap in areas they would have needed to get supplies to quickly, so just transfering stuff to a different train wouldn't have always been guranteed. If they were going to push through western Germany and into France they would have to make sure that wasn't going to be an issue. I'm not saying they couldn't make some new connecting lines quickly and overcome this, but how much focus do you put on that while you have the U.S., U.K., and France fighting you?

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Alright, I'll stop being a dick because I am feeling very good today so I'll post. Basically, there was no way Russia was going to sweep through the entire Europe. Earlier setbacks on the Eastern Front killed 11 million troops, and injured millions of other soldiers for a long time. By the time Russians met Americans in Central Germany, it was about 2-4 million Soviet troops versus 5-6 million Allied forces. Soviets were desperately short on resources, supplies, and were facing a ruined country at home. Allies, however, only destroyed 106 Nazi divisions (as compared to 600+ by Soviets), so they held advantage at that point, in manpower, supplies, arms and support from other countries. Stalin would have never defeated Allies at that point. But they would have not attacked either. When Allies landed in France and Italy, Stalin already called it publicly that he lost the war. Why? Turns out, in 1939, Soviet Union started a slow military buildup and massive mobilization campaign, after treaty with Hitler was signed. He knew of Hitler's plans to attack UK, USA. He was preparing a massive army to "liberate" Europe under communism. He was going to do that when German armies landed in UK, and slanted the attack on Nazi Germany for July 1941. No wonder why when Germany attacked, Soviets were caught by surprise. 5 million troops became prisoners. 5000 planes destroyed. 1000 tanks captured. Heavy artillery, howitzers, TRAINS filled with ammuinition, TANKS ON TRAINS ready to roll into Germany - clear indication that Stalin prepared an invasion. A great book proving this, with pictures is written by a former Soviet high intelligence GRU agent Suvorov, in his book "Ledokol" or "Icebreaker". When you see Soviet photos of hundreds of tanks waiting on train tracks, howitzer units (meant for attacks, not defense), thousands of long-range aircraft, paratrooper units for behind enemy lines campaign - you know the real intentions. If he managed to attack first, today Europe would be Soviet Union from France in the west, Italy, Serbia in the south. Or, even better, if Hitler and Stalin managed to get on even terms and become allies, which never materialized because they didnt trust each other - today we would be living in a dictatorship for sure.

Interesting...I'll have to look that up...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Interesting...I'll have to look that up...

In 1930s, German military officers received training in Soviet Union and weaponry, because they were forbidden to build arms on their own territory ;-) And then the Western investments in Nazi election campaigns kicked in! Everyone helped the Nazis, even some Arabs! And Zionists ... my ... everyone loved Nazis!

Stalin wanted to arm the Nazi machine to defeat his enemies in the West, so that he could later enter as "liberator". Trust me, 5 million plus Soviet troops sitting right at the German border armed to the teeth ready to attack is quite a big border guard ;-) Thats why Soviets suffered setbacks early in the war - they lost most of the factories, ammuinition, tanks, and defense lines

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Interesting...I'll have to look that up...

In 1930s, German military officers received training in Soviet Union and weaponry, because they were forbidden to build arms on their own territory ;-) And then the Western investments in Nazi election campaigns kicked in! Everyone helped the Nazis, even some Arabs! And Zionists ... my ... everyone loved Nazis!

Stalin wanted to arm the Nazi machine to defeat his enemies in the West, so that he could later enter as "liberator". Trust me, 5 million plus Soviet troops sitting right at the German border armed to the teeth ready to attack is quite a big border guard ;-) Thats why Soviets suffered setbacks early in the war - they lost most of the factories, ammuinition, tanks, and defense lines

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Interesting...I'll have to look that up...

In 1930s, German military officers received training in Soviet Union and weaponry, because they were forbidden to build arms on their own territory ;-) And then the Western investments in Nazi election campaigns kicked in! Everyone helped the Nazis, even some Arabs! And Zionists ... my ... everyone loved Nazis!

Stalin wanted to arm the Nazi machine to defeat his enemies in the West, so that he could later enter as "liberator". Trust me, 5 million plus Soviet troops sitting right at the German border armed to the teeth ready to attack is quite a big border guard ;-) Thats why Soviets suffered setbacks early in the war - they lost most of the factories, ammuinition, tanks, and defense lines

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Interesting...I'll have to look that up...

In 1930s, German military officers received training in Soviet Union and weaponry, because they were forbidden to build arms on their own territory ;-) And then the Western investments in Nazi election campaigns kicked in! Everyone helped the Nazis, even some Arabs! And Zionists ... my ... everyone loved Nazis!

Stalin wanted to arm the Nazi machine to defeat his enemies in the West, so that he could later enter as "liberator". Trust me, 5 million plus Soviet troops sitting right at the German border armed to the teeth ready to attack is quite a big border guard ;-) Thats why Soviets suffered setbacks early in the war - they lost most of the factories, ammuinition, tanks, and defense lines

I think it should be noted that the reason Stalin and Churchill divided up spheres of influance in Europe is because they both realized that neither side could support a war between them. Further, I think it's important to note that Stalin did not have ambitions for expansion into Western Europe... this was a minunderstanding on Trumans part largely due to the fact that FDR didn't bother to tell him that he had agreed to the splitting of Europe. All that said, the USSR even after their heavy losses had a large expendable population and could have pressed far into Western Europe, however, their gains would eventually have been lost as they simply could not compete with the production capacity of the western allies. It would have been a very long war of attrition with the ultimate result being the failure of the Soviet economy.

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