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John Cage - 4'33"

Noise, industrial, etc. eat your heart out. This is music stripped beyond the very bones.

But is it music?

It is music.


All sound is music all music is sound for me... what changes is how interesting a particular sound or piece of music is.


Personally, I think everything is art in one way of another, its all just a question of how interesting it is.

haha I remember having this same discussion about this same piece when I took a my first music and digital technology course at university

I don't look to everything as art. There's a lot of people who like to feel they are open minded or progressive when they say that, but the way I feel about it is the difference between art and not art is the way it is presented/framed/biased.

For instance, some 20 year old northamerican sorority girl takes photos of her friends in acapulco. Is that art?

Now, a 50 year old woman living in SF goes to Acapulco and takes 100 photos of different sorority girls.

Anyone see the difference? I believe art has a critical nature, a bias, a communicative aspect beyond what it "is".

That being said, there are good ideas and bad ideas. I tend to classify good and bad with the simple question, "So What?".

Silence is not art. But John Cage's piece is.

So What?
Let's not forget what the "silience" really is. It's not the absence of sound, it's the awareness of every single individual in the space that is being used for the performance, the almost painful awareness of the lack of "music" the rustling of nervous concertgoers in their stuffy chairs, the cough from the fat man in the back and the whisper of the platinum blond with her thousand dollar bag. I love how utterly site-specific this piece is. People might call it a gimmick, but John Cage pioneered this way of thinking about music. It certainly would be a gimmick however if done again.

Is the sound of somebody accidentally falling and toppling over a drum set music?

Perhaps it could be a new genre.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec For instance, some 20 year old northamerican sorority girl takes photos of her friends in acapulco. Is that art?

ya its just fucking boring uninteresting art.

I guess I have to disagree with you there. I'm sure you could get me to agree me when I'm slightly intoxicated (not that you care, I'm just a worthless participant of an internet forum) but right now I'm just feeling that there is some sort of higher intention that separates a photo from a PHOTO.

but i can tell you are really set on that everything is art idea. fair enough




oh yeah here's some art

At some point, I'm going to send out a mix for which the entire tracklist is whatever track vs. John Cage - 4'33"

the real trick is to try and perform this piece....4 minutes and 33 seconds is a damn long time to sit onstage doing nothing while trying to keep a straight face.

(i didn't do it, my friend did. )

so, which one is better:

Holden - Intentionally Left Blank vs. John Cage - 4'33" ?

Which recording of 4'33"? There are multiple recorded performances of it, you know.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Let's not forget what the "silience" really is. It's not the absence of sound, it's the awareness of every single individual in the space that is being used for the performance, the almost painful awareness of the lack of "music" the rustling of nervous concertgoers in their stuffy chairs, the cough from the fat man in the back and the whisper of the platinum blond with her thousand dollar bag. I love how utterly site-specific this piece is. People might call it a gimmick, but John Cage pioneered this way of thinking about music. It certainly would be a gimmick however if done again.

I wouldn't call any modern performance of 4'33" a "gimmick," because it can still infuriate or sooth. In other words, it makes you feel emotion, which is what art is supposed to do. However, all performances of it these days are absolute shit because people know what's coming and have far too much of what they call respect for the piece, so the emotions being felt aren't communicated at all. 4'33" has been hijacked and turned into the schlock it is by the pop music system.

quote:

Originally posted by kernkraft so, which one is better: Holden - Intentionally Left Blank vs. John Cage - 4'33" ?

Cage wins by default for actually having sounds in it.

I work in a foundry and hate this song as it reminds me too much of that shit-hole of a workplace.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex 4'33" has been hijacked and turned into the schlock it is by the pop music system.

Very much so.

Alot of music artists today like to put these so called "silent pieces" into recordings, onto albums for example - making it all pseudo-artistic and ostentatious.

4'33's purpose of sonic absorption and enviromental fidelity is now just another quick way to make you look cool omgz.

Finally a post from someone who knows the 4.33 composition

Download that track, it rocks

quote:

Originally posted by Siesta Finally a post from someone who knows the 4.33 composition Download that track, it rocks

I downloaded it from beatport but there was nothing there.

quote:

Originally posted by chesco I downloaded it from beatport but there was nothing there.

It's meant to be heard live. In a concert hall, by a full orchestra performing to the effect of sitting and doing nothing for the allotted time.

Yeppp, classic track




choooonnnnnn,


besides that...leaving aside this "art" thing...this is just 20th century non-sense.Lets not forget the classical musicians who loved their music, pioneered mind-blowing and complex music and developed music theory itself. And all these, not always in the comfort of "high society living-rooms" as we all may thing, but in many times, in conditions of extreme poverty where unfortunately, some of them had treated and exchanged their masterfull music for a piece of bread or an extremely small amount of money, and eventually have died poor and disgraced (e.g. vivaldi). These individuals-the true pioneers and artists, probably roll on their graves as we praise this..."modern", "pioneering" stuff and forget them as "conventional-musicians".


In my opinion, art has to convey some sort of aesthetics, not just "messages". I think a famous modern piece of art was a toilet with something written on it, but thats just bullshit (literally!) in my opinion and not art, since there is nothing aesthetic in a dirty toilet, the same way there is nothing aesthetic in a noisy sound or in a silent period which is praised as "pioneering modern art".

In simple words...

"MODERN-ART my ARSE"

Fountain, Marcel Duchamp, 1917

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN besides that...leaving aside this "art" thing...this is just 20th century non-sense.Lets not forget the classical musicians who loved their music, pioneered mind-blowing and complex music and developed music theory itself. And all these, not always in the comfort of "high society living-rooms" as we all may thing, but in many times, in conditions of extreme poverty where unfortunately, some of them had treated and exchanged their masterfull music for a piece of bread or an extremely small amount of money, and eventually have died poor and disgraced (e.g. vivaldi). These individuals-the true pioneers and artists, probably roll on their graves as we praise this..."modern", "pioneering" stuff and forget them as "conventional-musicians". In my opinion, art has to convey some sort of aesthetics, not just "messages". I think a famous modern piece of art was a toilet with something written on it, but thats just bullshit (literally!) in my opinion and not art, since there is nothing aesthetic in a dirty toilet, the same way there is nothing aesthetic in a noisy sound or in a silent period which is praised as "pioneering modern art". In simple words... "MODERN-ART my ARSE"

Pisses you off, doesn't it?

I think people who thing discuss the possibility that it takes "something" to be art and claim to make art are funny

/kicks dirt

No sillier than discussing what makes something good or bad art.

[And saying that something is "not art" may sometimes be a kind of code for saying, 'Somebody may be presenting it as art, but I don't care for it.']

Interesting note;

Brian Eno claims to have taken a piss in Duchamp's fountain.

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