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-- Complete Withdrawl from Iraq

Complete Withdrawl from Iraq

US always loves to say to world that it cannot withdraw at the moment and how it will escalate problems.. all big load of shit, the truth is US wants to secure its oil bases and keep the oil pumping to its country. It dosent care about the Civil War as long as its cars are at cruise speed.

A complete withdrawl from Iraq is possible at any moment, here is what is needed to be done to solve Iraq problem:

1)Withdraw complely from Iraq, not one US soilder, not one US guard outside any oilfeild. Full withdrawl is needed, not partial withdrawl.

2)Bring in the UN forces, no Nato.. UN peace keeping forces if the world remember they still exist.

3)Pleadge and pay for all the rebuilding expenses, economic recovery will be swift as Iraq has oil.

4)Apologise and accept its mistakes, say in clear words you were wrong to invade Iraq and you lost the war.

Iraq problem can be solved anytime US wants it to, but the truth is they want to solve it on their own terms in their own way, inspite of loosing the battle completly. They dont care about US choppers being shot and soilder getting sniped everyday.. nor do they care about Civil War.

This is fucking dumb, you are ignorant to the situation in Iraq and this post proves it. If all we want in Iraq is their oil then how come in 2005 Iraq only accounted for 5% of our oil imports. Thats a drop of spit in the ocean of US oil imports.

And what makes you think the Iraqis that are blowing us up want a UNPROFOR in their country any more than the US Army. We are there only as peacekeepers anyway, its not like we are acting as an occupying army. The people who are engaging in terrorism in Iraq fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Those who want no foreign forces in their country so they are attacking coalition troops

2. Those who want to eliminate a religious/ethnic group that is different from theirs (Shia vs Sunni violence)

Group 1 will attack the UN soldiers just like they attack coalition troops now.

UN Peacekeeping forces don't do dick.

Right now, the US presence is the only thing keeping Iraq from turning into an all-out battlefield. The majority of attacks we see now are Iraqi (with foreign help) against Iraqi. I shudder to think what the country would be like if left alone, or if a passive UN peace keeping force was sent in. Yes, they hate us being there, but at the moment, the alternative is far worse for them.

I wish every day that we were out of Iraq, but unless we want more Iraqis blowing each other up, eventually leading to the reinstatement of the kind of dictatorship Iraq loathed for so many years, the options are limited. No amount of apologizing on the part of the US will prevent that.

** Hijack Alert**

NeoPhono why are you, "Tranceaddict in Training"??

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Right now, the US presence is the only thing keeping Iraq from turning into an all-out battlefield. The majority of attacks we see now are Iraqi (with foreign help) against Iraqi. I shudder to think what the country would be like if left alone, or if a passive UN peace keeping force was sent in. Yes, they hate us being there, but at the moment, the alternative is far worse for them.

That's another lie that your president keeps selling to the US public to avoid being kicked out of the office.

quote:

Originally posted by star-traveler That's another lie that your president keeps selling to the US public to avoid being kicked out of the office.

Okay, tell me what would happen in Iraq without some sort of intervening force.

You really think the Kurds, Shi'a and Sunni would just lay down their weapons and shake hands? Do you think Iran or other outside governments would not try to influence the fledgling nation? Do you think the country would not fall back into a dictatorship or totalitarian theocracy? If you believe these things, please state your reasons and motives as to why these groups, who have lived in hatred of each other for centuries, would now, in a vacuum of power, magically decide to peacefully coexist. We have already seen their eagerness to kill each other in a pseudo-police state. If you take away the last real deterrent for their actions, why would they decide to stop?

You can say it's a lie all you want, but until you can prove otherwise, your statement is rhetoric.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r ** Hijack Alert** NeoPhono why are you, "Tranceaddict in Training"??

I think a while ago occrider or someone else had put their status as "supreme tranceaddict" or something like that. I thought it was funny and witty at the time, so I changed mine to that.

I'll fix it.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I think a while ago occrider or someone else had put their status as "supreme tranceaddict" or something like that. I thought it was funny and witty at the time, so I changed mine to that. I'll fix it.

You didn't have to fix on my account, I was just curious if you did put that there yourself or not

As for the subject matter, I agree with you NeoPhono.
What is going on now is nothing new, rather a 'changing of the guard' that will actually let you out of your cell (for lack of a better comparison).
Unfortunately their new-found freedom was apparently a cue to start up their old ways of killing each other rather than continuing their common celebration of liberation.
I should probably say that there was celebration of liberation but that somehow got old real fast before dogma set in and they were back at each others throats.
Sad really considering they're supposed to be the 'cradle of civilization' yet there isn't anything civil regarding their hatred of each other...

Thats is exactly the point I wanted to make. US and its media loves to potray how evil Iraq is, and how Iraqies are a killing machines who will kill anyone. But its not like that, Iraqies dont like US presence in Iraq because US has waged war on them before and this war is just a revenge for the war it lost before at Iraqies hand. Yes, Saddam won the last war in front of Iraqies and his popularity sore, remember how US killed all fleeing Iraqies in Kuwait before they could reach home, Iraqies know UN sanctions were because US wanted it, US drafted these santions and Iraqies see US directly responsible for all it miseries in PAST before the war because of sanctions and now after the war cause of little US has done to maintain law and order. Iraqies dont trust US. Noone trusts US.

Iraqies wont kill and attack UN forces, yes their might be a few small incidenes of 'terrorism' but it will be 5% of what it is today. Just like in Palestine their is some attack on Red Cross but its one isolated incidence.. not mass uprising against US forces we are seeing right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Thats is exactly the point I wanted to make. US and its media loves to potray how evil Iraq is, and how Iraqies are a killing machines who will kill anyone. But its not like that, Iraqies dont like US presence in Iraq because US has waged war on them before and this war is just a revenge for the war it lost before at Iraqies hand. Yes, Saddam won the last war in front of Iraqies and his popularity sore, remember how US killed all fleeing Iraqies in Kuwait before they could reach home, Iraqies know UN sanctions were because US wanted it, US drafted these santions and Iraqies see US directly responsible for all it miseries in PAST before the war because of sanctions and now after the war cause of little US has done to maintain law and order. Iraqies dont trust US. Noone trusts US. Iraqies wont kill and attack UN forces, yes their might be a few small incidenes of 'terrorism' but it will be 5% of what it is today. Just like in Palestine their is some attack on Red Cross but its one isolated incidence.. not mass uprising against US forces we are seeing right now.

There's not a whole lot in this post that's even close to accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Thats is exactly the point I wanted to make. US and its media loves to potray how evil Iraq is, and how Iraqies are a killing machines who will kill anyone. But its not like that, Iraqies dont like US presence in Iraq because US has waged war on them before and this war is just a revenge for the war it lost before at Iraqies hand. Yes, Saddam won the last war in front for Iraqies and his popularity sore, UN sanctions were because US wanted it, US drafted these santions and Iraqies see US directly responsible for all it miseries in PAST before the war because of sanctions and now after the war cause of little US has done to maintain law and order. Iraqies dont trust US. Noone trusts US. Iraqies wont kill and attack UN forces, yes their might be a few small incidenes of 'terrorism' but it will be 5% of what it is today. Just like in Palestine their is some attack on Red Cross but its one isolated incidence.. not mass uprising against US forces we are seeing right now.

Did you read what I posted? If the US left, of course violence towards them would stop, at least in Iraq. I'm talking about the widespread violence of Iraqis vs. Iraqis. You have three large ethnic groups that all hate each other. If given the chance, and free reign, either one would be more than happy to slaughter the others. Right now the only thing stopping that (and just barely) is the US military. So again, if the US completely pulls out, what is going to stop the massacres?

Right now there are two choices:

1) Allow the US to stay, hopefully until enough Iraqi police are trained to maintain peace themselves. While that happens there will be violence against the US and the US against Iraqis. Hundreds to thousands will die.

2) The US completely pulls out. Ethnic and religious Iraqi forces, with help from neighboring governments, first destroy the existing Iraqi democratic government, then turn Iraqi into an "ethnic cleansing" battlefield. The US leaves, you have no Iraqi/US violence, but you have tens, if not hundreds of thousands massacred as each ethnic group fights for control.

In each case people are going to fault the US. If the US stays, the violence against the US and vice versa is blamed entirely on the US. If the US leaves, the massacres that would follow will also be blamed on the US. So, what does the US do? It either stays and has the death of thousands on its shoulders, or it leaves and has the death of tens to hundreds of thousands on its shoulders.

I want the US out of Iraq, but I also look at which option saves the most lives. We stay and people get killed. We leave and a shit load of people die. It's a choice between two evils, but the choice is obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Thats is exactly the point I wanted to make. US and its media loves to potray how evil Iraq is, and how Iraqies are a killing machines who will kill anyone. But its not like that, Iraqies dont like US presence in Iraq because US has waged war on them before and this war is just a revenge for the war it lost before at Iraqies hand. Yes, Saddam won the last war in front of Iraqies and his popularity sore, remember how US killed all fleeing Iraqies in Kuwait before they could reach home, Iraqies know UN sanctions were because US wanted it, US drafted these santions and Iraqies see US directly responsible for all it miseries in PAST before the war because of sanctions and now after the war cause of little US has done to maintain law and order. Iraqies dont trust US. Noone trusts US. Iraqies wont kill and attack UN forces, yes their might be a few small incidenes of 'terrorism' but it will be 5% of what it is today. Just like in Palestine their is some attack on Red Cross but its one isolated incidence.. not mass uprising against US forces we are seeing right now.

Do you live in Bizarro world? I don't know where you get your information on the situation in Iraq but it's not even remotely based on facts.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Did you read what I posted? If the US left, of course violence towards them would stop, at least in Iraq. I'm talking about the widespread violence of Iraqis vs. Iraqis. You have three large ethnic groups that all hate each other. If given the chance, and free reign, either one would be more than happy to slaughter the others. Right now the only thing stopping that (and just barely) is the US military. So again, if the US completely pulls out, what is going to stop the massacres?

What makes you think UN is not capable of stopping th enthnic clashes? What is US doing to stop these clashes? Are they killing who they think can clash and cause violence? They are standing gaurd, stopping cars, checking, frisking.. UN can do that too. US has done nothing extraordinary, nothing special to contain these clashes and which UN cant do. UN has proved its worth in Kosovo, and much much harder places in Africa. Iraq is a pussy when it comes to gurella warfare in comparision to Africa, but UN has proved its worth in African countries in past. And with world support, world logistics, world's finance, world's political support (The biggest weakness of US at present in Iraq is US lacks world 'political' support), world's forces, UN can and will do much better job than US.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Right now there are two choices: 1) Allow the US to stay, hopefully until enough Iraqi police are trained to maintain peace themselves. While that happens there will be violence against the US and the US against Iraqis. Hundreds to thousands will die.

This Iraqi police training will only get worst with time, their is already stories of Iraqies defecting US after receiving training to join hands with insurgents and 'terrorists' groups. Iraqies dont join police training because they are nationalist, or they are loyal to US forces, they join because they want a frigging job, and when 'terrorists organisations' start recruiting they offer better package to 'Iraqi Police' who join hands with insurgents than.

This Iraqi police training is the worst shit of all. It lacks basic loyalty. It will explode sometime or later, where you will see a Hamas winning elections like situtaion. Iraqies 'police' run and leave police station giving arms to insurgents.. where do you think they run back to? training camps to get police training again? Lot of Iraqi police will be a 'terrorist' after reciving police training, just keep arming them and training them.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono 2) help from neighboring governments, first destroy the existing Iraqi democratic government,

And this is another reason why US dosent want to leave Iraq. They are scared that once they leave, than instead of US puppet govt. Iraq will have Iran pro govt and this will be a problem for them. Yes there will be a Iran-pro govt in Iraq, and theit is nothing that will stop it. Unless US invades Iran and installs a 'democratic' govt their too!

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono The US leaves, you have no Iraqi/US violence, but you have tens, if not hundreds of thousands massacred as each ethnic group fights for control.

This is the fear that is set in your mind by the US media, that Iraqies are killing machines and they will kill everyone once Us leaves. Nothing like that will happen, ethnic fights for control happens in all Muslim countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Ujbek, Kasak.. but this 'tens, if not hundreds of thousands massacred as each ethnic group fights' dosent happen. Its the gift of media instigating fear that this will happen, they all gonna die if US leaves.

Nothing like that will happen, dare I say teargas is enough to contain that in city area and UN tanks with UN written over it and permission to shoot in air is all needed to contain ethnic clashes in remote area. This is just the fear instigated in everyone's mind by US media.

Purple...quite simply, I'm very glad you aren't in charge of international policy.

Sure, the UN did a great job in Kosovo. Coming in after the war, after upwards of 250,000 people had been displaced and maintaining "peace." Not exactly analogous to present day Iraq. Oh, and the UN-controlled peace in Kosovo has been great except for LINK or LINK or LINK or LINK.

Also, would you care to name some of these African countries that they've helped in the last 20 or so years? They're doing a great job in Sudan, and were awesome in Rawanda, Zaire, and Somalia.

It's also great to know that since "ethnic fights for control happens in all Muslim countries," you don't seem to have a problem if it happens in Iraq.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that everything you say is based on false assumptions. You assume the UN will be better, when the past 20 years have shown they are both slow and reluctant to act, and when they do, their results are marginal at best. Also, you assume that the ethnic fighting that will occur in Iraq will be relatively death free. Well...take a look.

LINK

Already ethnic fighting since the US invasion has led to 400,000 deaths.

The only thing keeping the country together is US forces. The civil war in Iraq has already dealt out hundreds of thousands of deaths. If you don't mind seeing hundreds of thousands more than seeing the US leave and the UN enter is exactly what you'd be hoping for.

I can't believe the U.S. wouldn't have thought that far ahead to see the potential wedge they have actually become.
I simply don't trust the U.N. to do anything in the way of 'peace-keeping' as their record (as NeoPhono has so eloquently pointed out) for 'keeping-peace' is woeful at best.
If I had to guess, the U.S. knew this, which is why they circumvented the U.N. in the first place, or watch yet another massacre as a direct result of the beaucratic tar-pit that is the U.N.
They had no reason to trust them, especially with Koffi lining his pockets in one of the biggest international scandals of our time (Food for Oil anyone?).
Its like trusting the cat to watch your goldfish - ain't gonna happen.

Don't get me wrong (and I find myself repeating this from time to time), the U.N. does have some great divisions that are definiately needed, however, peace-keeping just doesn't appear to be one of them let alone, and most importantly, resolving conflicts...

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX Do you live in Bizarro world? I don't know where you get your information on the situation in Iraq but it's not even remotely based on facts.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but think about where you get your information from, as well. The American media? If you - unlike most Americans - read international newssites also, such as British or European press, I take that back. But if not, there's thousands of facts that are passing you by daily.

quote:

Originally posteed by Fir3start3r I can't believe the U.S. wouldn't have thought that far ahead to see the potential wedge they have actually become.

Why not, sir? These guys were genuinely shocked to see the results of their actions. Why would you expect people who expected to be greeted with open arms to have any kind of knowledge about the place?

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd Why not, sir? These guys were genuinely shocked to see the results of their actions. Why would you expect people who expected to be greeted with open arms to have any kind of knowledge about the place?

The only ones that are shocked are the ones that were sold on going in the first place, definately not the salemen running the show...

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