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-- make pads sound less muddy?


Posted by djbruuen on Feb-20-2007 01:39:

make pads sound less muddy?

on low chords, they go nuts over a large frequency spectrum. Any suggestions on eliminating this potential muddy sound when playing pads in the low register?


Posted by mysticalninja on Feb-20-2007 02:02:

hipass @ 80hz, do some cuts around 250-500.


Posted by B_man on Feb-20-2007 02:03:

As a little joke I could suggest this:

1. send it through a bandpass filter. Or you could sway a fly with a shotgun and send it through a highpass filter with even MORE cutoff.


Posted by jacheatamobits on Feb-20-2007 07:06:

if ure chaining it with distortion, which goes first?

or do i just use the EQ in the distortion plugin?

ive always had trouble doing this...


Posted by kitphillips on Feb-20-2007 11:00:

Run distortion then eq, Have you tried just sweeping your eq to find the frequency you want and then cutting it? try small bands first, then move up to larger, and don't forget to listen to it on a different system first, as it sounds like you might just be getting a bit of resonance from your speakers, if your monitoring on crappy hi fi speakers (like me.. )


Posted by BOOsTER on Feb-20-2007 13:30:

quote:
Originally posted by jacheatamobits
if ure chaining it with distortion, which goes first?

or do i just use the EQ in the distortion plugin?

ive always had trouble doing this...


both will have certain effect

if you place EQ first then distortion...what you get is distorded eqed sound...meaning you have hmm different distortion effect or ... how to say...just try and see...

if you wanna "demuddify" the pad...you better put the EQ to the very last part of the signal chain...

FX order is a thing that's better to try and see, then ask sometimes you can just find something cool, because you don't follow someone's advices about how to order your effects...


not that anyone given u a bad advice though...I just thought I'll throw my 2 cents here


Posted by Derivative on Feb-20-2007 13:50:

Dont highpass at 80s and 200-250hz. It depends entirely on the pad and what the root note is. The root note will be around the fundamental frequency which is the lowest sounding, highest amplitude pitch reference in a sound.

If you know the key but do not know its corresponding frequency range you can do one or both of the following:

1) Read it off a spectrum analyser. I recommend Voxengo SPAN because its free and decent.

2) Use a parametric EQ. Make a very narrow notch somewhere in the middle. Now turn your speakers down a bit and play your pad on loop. Flip the notch upside down by taking the gain slider and maxing it out. This will make a very narrow amplitude spike on the EQ. Now slowly sweep the inverted notch up and down the entire frequency range of the EQ. You will hear the harmonic intervals because the sound will suddenly appear to resonate and become very loud at certain intervals whilst remaining quiet in between. The lowest one of these amplitude spikes is the fundamental frequency.

Once you have found the fundamental or one of the offending harmonic 'spikes' (in relation to the fundamental) simply lower the gain slider and gradually turn the inverted notch back into a regular notch to tone this narrow frequency range down a bit.

These super loud harmonic peaks are the intervals you want to EQ out if they are intefering with harmonic intervals of other instruments or their fundamental. Be aware that reducing too much of the harmonics of an instrument will make it sound unnatural and if you cut the fundamental too much you lose most of the pitch reference of the sound. So don't do this with basslines or anything like that where you need that reference.

Create more notches if you need them to take out some of the really powerful harmonics. Again, do don't this indescriminately as notching out all the harmonics will make any harmonically rich sound become totally crap.

You should also note that there is very little beneath the fundamental so if you have a pad and its fundamental is above 80hz, highpassing at 80hz will do practically nothing and it won't save you much headroom.

Also be aware that if you change key, it will shift the fundamental and all its harmonics with it. So if you EQ a pad to notch out a pad in root A with a fundamental around 440hz and notch out some of the harmonics in relation to it and that pad changes key to E (about 630hz) then your EQ settings become redundant after the key change.

This is because you are now notching out the a small area in between its harmonic peaks - areas which you probably don't want to EQ out.

Therefore, you need to either:

1) change all your EQ settings as you change key by shifting them all up the relevant number of hz (in this case you need to move all your notches up about 200hz or...

2) widen the Q of one, some or all of your notches so that they supress a large range of frequency. Doing this too much will make your pads sound very unnatural so use sparingly and always think about what you are doing and for what reason.


Posted by substorm on Feb-20-2007 15:16:

This is what i usually do!

I use the waves Q10 EQ, but will work with any good EQ.

Band 1:
This is to make the pads avoid interference with other sounds and sub-freq.

Set it as high-pass around 80-90Hz, and Gain around -7 to -9, then set a Q level around 7 - 8.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Band 6 and 7:
Here we want to take away that hum in the mids.

Set band 6 at around 600-650Hz, Gain around -10db to -12db, and a Q level around 100.

Set band 7 at around 250-300Hz, Gain around -11db to -13db, and a Q level around 100.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Band 8:
This is to make the highs cut better in the mix, so will boost some like this.

Set it around 2-3Khz, then we boost the Gain to around 4 - 5db, and the set the Q level around 6 - 8.

Good luck
C


Posted by DeZmA on Feb-20-2007 15:36:

If you cut that much, I think you'll loose a lot of warmth. I'd try to solve it with some gentle cuts around 100-600 hz and some panning


Posted by Derivative on Feb-20-2007 16:41:

Sigh. Anyone who is saying 'cut this range: x hz to y hz' is missing the point.


Posted by substorm on Feb-20-2007 16:58:

Dont thing anyone here is saying DO LIKE THIS!!! my tip was just something he could try out, and if he then is happy with the result, then problem solved...right!


Posted by Eldritch on Feb-20-2007 20:06:

quote:
Originally posted by Derivative
Sigh. Anyone who is saying 'cut this range: x hz to y hz' is missing the point.


Well, I don't see the the point with your suggestion. Why go through all the trouble to find out the frequency of the offending bass note and then EQ it out with a narrow band? You do know that notes change over time, right? Should the EQ be automated then?

A highpass cut is a better solution in my opinion.
I agree that posting exact numbers is a bit pointless, you should use your ears, since every pad has a different sound.


Posted by mysticalninja on Feb-20-2007 22:34:

quote:
Originally posted by Derivative
Therefore, you need to either:

1) change all your EQ settings as you change key by shifting them all up the relevant number of hz (in this case you need to move all your notches up about 200hz or...

2) widen the Q of one, some or all of your notches so that they supress a large range of frequency. Doing this too much will make your pads sound very unnatural so use sparingly and always think about what you are doing and for what reason.


You forgot option 3, Resample the pad so the EQ settings are there when you pitch shift it. Of course that won't sound great if it gets stretched over an octave. In that case i'd multisample the pad with each chord of the pad with on eq settings..

Really all the guy wants to do tho is make his pad less muddy. In which case I recomend hipassing at LEAST at 60hz.. pads dont need 60hz and below..


Posted by kitphillips on Feb-21-2007 02:00:

quote:
Originally posted by mysticalninja
You forgot option 3, Resample the pad so the EQ settings are there when you pitch shift it. Of course that won't sound great if it gets stretched over an octave. In that case i'd multisample the pad with each chord of the pad with on eq settings..

Really all the guy wants to do tho is make his pad less muddy. In which case I recomend hipassing at LEAST at 60hz.. pads dont need 60hz and below..


+1
I think that trying to eq based off what key your in is a good way to drive yourself insane... So I would say a high pass would be a good place to start followed by some shallow cuts and maybe a notch if there's a really bad resonant peak... Thats if he cant just use his ears and/or the inverted notch technique derivative and I both mentioned, I really think that an inverted notch is the best way to deal with these things, but if the problem is over as wide a band as he says, maybe some shallow cuts and a highpass would be better. I don't know...


Posted by Derivative on Feb-21-2007 11:11:

quote:
Originally posted by Eldritch
Why go through all the trouble to find out the frequency of the offending bass note and then EQ it out with a narrow band? You do know that notes change over time, right? Should the EQ be automated then?


If you bothered to read my post you would realise I answered this already. And yes it is an option. Or you could widen the Q of each band to accomodate key changes.

Either way, its the harmonics that interfere with other instruments as these the highest amplitude components of any harmonic sound aside from the fundamental.

You can use that notch technique to locate and EQ out some of the fundamental too. And since thats the lowest pitch reference in a harmonic sound it makes little sense to high pass anything if its fundamental is well above the highpass cutoff frequency.


Posted by expanded on Feb-21-2007 13:59:

First of all you need to ask yourself; Where do i want this pad in the mix? How does the mix look like?

A good starting point is the/a High pass filter.

Another good starting point is your ears.

If it's neccesary, use a parametric eq too lower them nasty mid/high's, but often it's not really needed.


Posted by Derivative on Feb-21-2007 17:28:

quote:
Originally posted by kitphillips
+1
I think that trying to eq based off what key your in is a good way to drive yourself insane... So I would say a high pass would be a good place to start followed by some shallow cuts and maybe a notch if there's a really bad resonant peak... Thats if he cant just use his ears and/or the inverted notch technique derivative and I both mentioned, I really think that an inverted notch is the best way to deal with these things, but if the problem is over as wide a band as he says, maybe some shallow cuts and a highpass would be better. I don't know...


Its actually really easy. All the harmonics keep their relation to the fundamental so a key change from A to E means shifting every band up 200 hz or so. You can automate this in your host so you don't even need to do it manually. Some EQs make this easier than others. Voxengo Gliss EQ is fricking easy because it has a spectrum analyser overlayed onto the EQ curve so you can see which peaks you want to diminish. And you only need 1 EQ not a different EQ for every keychange.

The whole process is made even easier by the fact that trance is not harmonically complex and doesn't typically change key very often.

If a high pass filter will do, what happens then if you get pads clashing with frequencies higher up in the spectrum? In the lower mids and upper mids?

As for that inverted notch thing. Its not called that - I jsut forgot the technical name for this type of filter - its a peaking filter!



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