TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- DJ Booth
-- harmonic mixing confusion
Pages (2): [1] 2 »

harmonic mixing confusion

Hey everyone,

a question...

I really want to learn harmonic mixing but something baffles my mind about it

track A on the deck is in c minor at 140 bpm

I have an indexed track in my bag that is 135bpm at say....f minor

If I'm spinning these tracks live infront of tons of people I dont really have the time to work out exactly how much of a pitch increase I'm going to have to shift on my tables, which means I cant exactly do the math to see if this record at it's new speed is going to mix well.

Can anyone let me know how you can be in the mix and mix harmoniously on the fly. It's just really confusing me, if anyone has a system they use, would you be able to let me know so I can start doing this.

Jer

to advanced for me lol i just use equip/programs w/ pitch lock

1. you need the right tools, with key lock or master tempo.

2. slide you fader to obtain the required key.

3. Lock it.

4. Beatmatch.

if you key all of your tracks at a set BPM, it won't matter how much/what percentage/etc etc of a pitch shift you make. two tracks of the same key at the same BPM will always be in key with each other, regardless of the BPM.

honestly i think it's too much bullshit to sit there and do the math to figure out at which pitch percentage a key changes. especially if you have a track that's a semi-tone too sharp or flat.. no one in the dj booth agrees with me though, so whatever.

and using the pitch lock function (which for one doesn't work with vinyl) limits what songs you can mix in which key. pitch lock is most effective around +/- %2 or so, so if you have one song that's originally @ 120bpm and another @ say.. 130bpm (but for example are both in the key of A @ 125 bpm), it won't match correctly.

quote:

if you key all of your tracks at a set BPM

What exactly do you mean by this?

I recently did a mix (all in key) by first of all choosing what BPM I'd like the mix to be and then picking the tunes that I wanted to play. Then I'd got through each tune that wasn't anywhere near 135bpm and work out the new Key code and wrote this code next to the track.

I was then left with a load of tunes with their new keycodes ready to mix in whichever order sounded right.

Is this what you meant? Or are you using another system?

quote:

Originally posted by agentdansmith Then I'd got through each tune that wasn't anywhere near 135bpm and work out the new Key code and wrote this code next to the track.

I wanna see you do all this live on stage

I agree, master tempo is pretty useless.

The rule of thumb I use is:

If the tempos of two tracks are within about 2% of each other and their original keys match then the mix will sound ok harmonically

If you've got the tempo of each track marked on the record/cd then you can simply make sure the tracks are within 2 or 3 BPM of each other (2% @ 130bpm gives a tolerance of 2.6 bpm either side).

Otherwise:

1. Beatmatch your tracks
2. Check the pitch offset you've got each one set to
3. If the difference in pitch positions is less than about 2%, it should sound ok (as long as the tracks are in matching keys)

e.g. if you've got a track playing at +2.3% and when you beatmatch a track in the same key the other track ends up set to 4.1% or something then they should sound near enough in key (4.1% - 2.3% = 1.8%, which is of course less than 2%).

I know particularly this latter part is a bit of a pain in the arse having to work it out on the fly, particularly if they don't turn out to be near enough so you then either have to pick another track or just make the mix pretty sharp so they don't clash... so I'd go down the route of writing the tempos of your tracks on your tunes if I were you!



You can then extend this if you like - if the difference in tempos is more than about 4% but less than about 8% (so between 5 BPM and 10 BPM apart) and the faster track is a key above the slower track, then it should work... so if one track's in Am and is 132 BPM and one's in Bbm and is 138 BPM then they should sound OK when mixed.


It does add a whole extra element to think about, which is why a lot of harmonic mixing DJs plan their sets quite extensively in advance... that's not for me, I like to be flexible to suit the crowd etc but it does mean thinking ahead by a couple of tracks!

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue if you key all of your tracks at a set BPM, it won't matter how much/what percentage/etc etc of a pitch shift you make. two tracks of the same key at the same BPM will always be in key with each other, regardless of the BPM.

What he means by this is if you've got a tune at 130, a tune at 135 and a tune at 140, instead of writing down the key each track is in when they're each at 0%, beatmatch each one to 135 BPM first (for example) then write down the key the track has there.


The problem is that if you take a track which is in Am at 130 BPM and beatmatch it to 135 BPM, it's actually then half way between Am and Bbm (very slightly nearer Bbm), so if you've got a track which is bang on Am at 135 BPM and a track bang on Bbm at 135 BPM then it'll sound shit with both of them. The way I've found around this is to write, in this example,

"Am +3.8%"

(where the +3.8% is the pitch change needed to make it the standard tempo, 135 BPM in this case)

next to the track in the tracklist, which tells me that it'll sound in key with another track in Am with an offset within 2% of that one (so between +1.8% and +5.8%)... although with normal tunes you might as well just use the key & tempo.

I've actually just started using the system I've just described for my loop CDs, but that's because every loop is beatmatched to 138 BPM so it makes sense (they used to be timestretched to keep them in the same key but that then meant that a lot of them were no longer in the same key as the original track if I wanted to use the two together).

Basically, unless you're going to start beatmatching (or even timestretching) all of your tracks to the same tempo before you burn them, I'd just stick with writing down the key and the tempo on your tunes.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox What he means by this is if you've got a tune at 130, a tune at 135 and a tune at 140, instead of writing down the key each track is in when they're each at 0%, beatmatch each one to 135 BPM first (for example) then write down the key the track has there. The problem is that if you take a track which is in Am at 130 BPM and beatmatch it to 135 BPM, it's actually then half way between Am and Bbm (very slightly nearer Bbm), so if you've got a track which is bang on Am at 135 BPM and a track bang on Bbm at 135 BPM then it'll sound shit with both of them. The way I've found around this is to write, in this example, "Am +3.8%" (where the +3.8% is the pitch change needed to make it the standard tempo, 135 BPM in this case) next to the track in the tracklist, which tells me that it'll sound in key with another track in Am with an offset within 2% of that one (so between +1.8% and +5.8%)... although with normal tunes you might as well just use the key & tempo. I've actually just started using the system I've just described for my loop CDs, but that's because every loop is beatmatched to 138 BPM so it makes sense (they used to be timestretched to keep them in the same key but that then meant that a lot of them were no longer in the same key as the original track if I wanted to use the two together). Basically, unless you're going to start beatmatching (or even timestretching) all of your tracks to the same tempo before you burn them, I'd just stick with writing down the key and the tempo on your tunes.

Cool, cheers mate - this is pretty much what I'm doing now. Writing down the key codes at the new tempo rather than before at their original tempo.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox The problem is that if you take a track which is in Am at 130 BPM and beatmatch it to 135 BPM, it's actually then half way between Am and Bbm (very slightly nearer Bbm), so if you've got a track which is bang on Am at 135 BPM and a track bang on Bbm at 135 BPM then it'll sound shit with both of them. The way I've found around this is to write, in this example, "Am +3.8%" (where the +3.8% is the pitch change needed to make it the standard tempo, 135 BPM in this case)

I agree, but the same problem occurs with "doing the math" if you give it a +/- "tolerance" then some songs will be that slight semi-tone off and imo it will sound like crap. say you follow a +/- 2% rule, and one song is +2%, and the other is -2%, you are assuming that they will probably work when in fact there is a 4% difference between the tracks. you know what i mean? i just think that using a tolerance is somewhat like guessing: they may not be quite right but by doing the math and looking at it on paper you can reasonably assume that they'll sound ok..

if you do it as i do, all of the songs that are say.. in between Bb and B (a semitone at best) will mix with each other and you'll know not to mix it with the straight up B or Bb tunes. however a lot of times the semitones are so minute that most people won't hear the difference. and 90% of the time, the songs fit in an actual key and not a semitone, there are very few songs in my list that are like, an A#b or however you wanna describe it. and in the end, i would rather have a list that says "this song, this song, and this song are in the same key" than "this song, when pitched a certain percentage, will most likely be in key with... wait lemme bust out the calculator and the pencil.." it's the same method as just knowing your tunes are in the same key, which i'm assuming is how dj's did it before all this mumbo jumbo came about. and furthermore it's a breeze to key your tunes to a certain tempo with a proggie like traktor where you can just hit "sync" and figure it out from there.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue I agree, but the same problem occurs with "doing the math" if you give it a +/- "tolerance" then some songs will be that slight semi-tone off and imo it will sound like crap. say you follow a +/- 2% rule, and one song is +2%, and the other is -2%, you are assuming that they will probably work when in fact there is a 4% difference between the tracks. you know what i mean? i just think that using a tolerance is somewhat like guessing: they may not be quite right but by doing the math and looking at it on paper you can reasonably assume that they'll sound ok..

That's what he was saying. When using the 2% rule, that means 2% from the currently playing tunes tempo and not 2% from the tunes default tempo. Otherwise, yes, you would be way off.

I do still believe though that you can get away with some tunes that do not have the same key. I've got a few that dont have the same keys but sound absolutely great together - the sudden key change actually sounds great and gives the mix a sudden energy drive!

quote:

Originally posted by agentdansmith That's what he was saying. When using the 2% rule, that means 2% from the currently playing tunes tempo and not 2% from the tunes default tempo. Otherwise, yes, you would be way off. I do still believe though that you can get away with some tunes that do not have the same key. I've got a few that dont have the same keys but sound absolutely great together - the sudden key change actually sounds great and gives the mix a sudden energy drive!

ahh, i misunderstood. yeah harmonic mixing has more to do than just mixing in the same keys. sets would be boring if a dj played a set entirely in the key of C or something lol. a basic understanding of intervals and chord structure goes a long way. most likely those songs in different keys that sound great together are complimentary or share many of the same notes (such as Cmaj and Am in extreme cases).

quote:

Originally posted by agentdansmith That's what he was saying. When using the 2% rule, that means 2% from the currently playing tunes tempo and not 2% from the tunes default tempo. Otherwise, yes, you would be way off.

Yep, exactly - it's a difference of 2%.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue however a lot of times the semitones are so minute that most people won't hear the difference.

You've said you've confused me a bit with your use of the word "semitone" - I take it you just mean a small pitch difference? A 'semitone' is actually a step from A to Bb, or from Db to E, etc (while a 'tone' is twice that - A to B, Db to Eb, etc). A semitone is actually about 6% in terms of a pitch difference - way more than would sound ok mixed together.

So with your tracks do you actually write "Bbm/Bm" for example for a track that's between 2 keys? Not a bad system I suppose, although when you get onto compatible keys (Bm goes nicely with Gbm for example), it could get complicated (i.e. you'd need to remember that Bbm/Bm goes with Fm/Gbm, not Gbm/Gm etc)

I agree having to break out a bit of maths isn't ideal, although at the end of the day it is simply a matter of looking at the numbers and seeing if they're within 2 of each other... and essentially at the end of the day most tracks you're mixing within a genre will be quite close to each other so you don't need to worry about it.

In light of this thread I have actually decided I might move to marking the tempos on my loops rather than the offset, just so that it matches a system of writing tempos on tunes (not something I do at the moment but I suspect I think I should start!), but either way I'll still be checking that the tempos are within 2-3 BPM of each other - I personally feel that's the best way around it for me.


Simple solution: timestretch all of your tracks to the same tempo and retune them to the same key haha, or just use Ableton and do it all in there... but I do like my hardware.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox You've said you've confused me a bit with your use of the word "semitone" - I take it you just mean a small pitch difference? A 'semitone' is actually a step from A to Bb, or from Db to E, etc (while a 'tone' is twice that - A to B, Db to Eb, etc). A semitone is actually about 6% in terms of a pitch difference - way more than would sound ok mixed together. So with your tracks do you actually write "Bbm/Bm" for example for a track that's between 2 keys? Not a bad system I suppose, although when you get onto compatible keys (Bm goes nicely with Gbm for example), it could get complicated (i.e. you'd need to remember that Bbm/Bm goes with Fm/Gbm, not Gbm/Gm etc) I agree having to break out a bit of maths isn't ideal, although at the end of the day it is simply a matter of looking at the numbers and seeing if they're within 2 of each other... and essentially at the end of the day most tracks you're mixing within a genre will be quite close to each other so you don't need to worry about it. In light of this thread I have actually decided I might move to marking the tempos on my loops rather than the offset, just so that it matches a system of writing tempos on tunes (not something I do at the moment but I suspect I think I should start!), but either way I'll still be checking that the tempos are within 2-3 BPM of each other - I personally feel that's the best way around it for me. Simple solution: timestretch all of your tracks to the same tempo and retune them to the same key haha, or just use Ableton and do it all in there... but I do like my hardware.

I've noticed that when talking keys, you refer to the actual key notes. I just remember my tunes by their keycode for use on the Camelot System. Do you not use this?

I've got Ableton, and have thought about doing this but didn't know whether I would be losing any sound quality in doing so.

Do you just import the track, set it to the new BPM and make sure that it is set to BEAT rather than PITCH? Then export it back out?

I don't know about all this talk about matching tracks all at one BPM and/or standardizing the key in Ableton.

I mean, keys of music are very elemental and important, like whole numbers in mathematics. Composers use keys for very specific reasons and I think it's best not to fuck with those reasons unless you really know what you are doing musically.

For instance, D#m is a very special key to me, it is a very sensitive and introspective key, whereass Am for me is more of an exuberant key.

Some synaesthesiac composers such as Rimsky-Kosakov & Alexander Scriabin related musical keys to color:

Rimsky-Korsakov: (this is closer to what I see)

B major gloomy, dark blue with steel shine
Bb major darkish
A major clear, pink
Ab major greysh-vioket
G major brownish-gold, light
F# major green, clear (color of greenery)
F major green, clear (color of greenery)
E major blue, sapphire, bright
Eb major dark, gloomy, grey-bluish
D major daylight, yellowish, royal
Db major darkish, warm
C major white

Scriabin:

C# Purple
F# Bright Blue/Violet
B Blue
E Sky Blue
A Green
D Yellow
G Orange
C Red
F Deep Red
Bb Rose/Steel
Eb Flesh
Ab Violet
Db Purple (same as C#)
Gb Bright Blue/Violet (same as F#)

quote:

Originally posted by agentdansmith Do you just import the track, set it to the new BPM and make sure that it is set to BEAT rather than PITCH? Then export it back out?

If you do end up using Ableton to re-pitch it, I'd use complex mode when warping instead of Beats, as I find Beats tends to make the bassline sound warbled.

Yeah if you go the ableton route for editing tracks, use complex mode and make sure all your tracks are set to High Quality playback. (there is a little toggle on the clip display)

well, I'm using vinyl and just vinyl, I have a shitty mixer right now so pitch correct is out of the question, I'm guessing my best bet is to find harmonic matches that have 'close' bpm relativity. The +2% thing really helps, thank you

Jer

quote:

Originally posted by agentdansmith I've noticed that when talking keys, you refer to the actual key notes. I just remember my tunes by their keycode for use on the Camelot System. Do you not use this? I've got Ableton, and have thought about doing this but didn't know whether I would be losing any sound quality in doing so. Do you just import the track, set it to the new BPM and make sure that it is set to BEAT rather than PITCH? Then export it back out?

Yeah I use the keys cos I already know which ones go with which from music theory, plus there are some key combinations you can do in certain cases which the Camelot system doesn't account for... but it's an equally valid system to use.


I was actually joking about timestretching all of your tracks, it's not something I'd do myself (as beatmatching is part of the fun of it for me) although I know some people do. But if you are going to do it, Ableton's complex timestretching algorithms are the best real time algorithms I've heard and with it all set to high quality (as suggested above), you'll still lose a bit of quality but it's not bad at all.

If you're really serious about it sounding as good as possible, the offline version (i.e. you sit and leave it to process a whole track, rather than it working it out as it plays it back, like the Ableton one does) of the Waves Soundshifter plugin is pretty much perfect. It really does make it sound like that the track was made in that key in the first place, but takes about 5 minutes to process a track so would take a fair while to do your whole collection! Plus it costs about �800 (as part of the Transform plugin bundle)

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec I don't know about all this talk about matching tracks all at one BPM and/or standardizing the key in Ableton. I mean, keys of music are very elemental and important, like whole numbers in mathematics. Composers use keys for very specific reasons and I think it's best not to fuck with those reasons unless you really know what you are doing musically. For instance, D#m is a very special key to me, it is a very sensitive and introspective key, whereass Am for me is more of an exuberant key.

I'm not advocating people retuning all of their tunes to the same key, cos then you'd get no modulation throughout a set and it'd sound really dull. But in response to what you said, if a DJ plays a track at any speed other than 0%, they've changed the key to a certain extent (not necessarily by a whole key, but the frequency of the tonic is different, which at the end of the day is the only difference between two keys of the same type: major or minor etc) - if they play the track at +4% then it's then nearer to the next key up than the key it was written in, so does that change the feeling of the song? Not really imo.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox You've said you've confused me a bit with your use of the word "semitone" - I take it you just mean a small pitch difference? A 'semitone' is actually a step from A to Bb, or from Db to E, etc (while a 'tone' is twice that - A to B, Db to Eb, etc).

yeah, whoops, i meant quartertone. sorry, i haven't used proper music terms since jazz band in high school. yeah, i've had somewhat of a problem with compatible keys, but like i said often it's not a problem. perhaps that's a moment where i mix out of the outros where there's not a whole lot going on melodically.. it depends. most of the time it'll be close enough, and almost %100 of the time the audience can't tell the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec I don't know about all this talk about matching tracks all at one BPM and/or standardizing the key in Ableton. I mean, keys of music are very elemental and important, like whole numbers in mathematics. Composers use keys for very specific reasons and I think it's best not to fuck with those reasons unless you really know what you are doing musically. For instance, D#m is a very special key to me, it is a very sensitive and introspective key, whereass Am for me is more of an exuberant key. Some synaesthesiac composers such as Rimsky-Kosakov & Alexander Scriabin related musical keys to color:

i respect your opinion but i think this is nonsense *as a dj*. it's like you're implying that all djs should only play tunes at %0.0 pitch because that's the way the producers intended it to be played. as a dj you have no choice but to change the key and/or the tempo of the tune your playing. it's part of beatmatching. I'm a big fan of E dorian but i don't give a flying fuck if it's pitched up to Gb dorian. and not everyone is a synaesthesiac.. the last thing i'm worried about is whether my transition in C# makes the crowd think about purple.

your putting the key on a pedestal, man.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox I was actually joking about timestretching all of your tracks, it's not something I'd do myself (as beatmatching is part of the fun of it for me) although I know some people do. But if you are going to do it, Ableton's complex timestretching algorithms are the best real time algorithms I've heard and with it all set to high quality (as suggested above), you'll still lose a bit of quality but it's not bad at all.

Ahh yes, ignore me then - I forgot that that would mean that there would be no need to beatmatch anymore - doh!

And like you said, where's the fun in that?!?!

I started to use Ableton 5 about 18 months ago and did a few mixes with it, and although they were pretty good mixes with some interesting uses of loops and effects that I would never be able to do with my CDJ's - it was a very boring experience and I quickly wne back to manually beatmatching me tunes.

You just can't beat the hands on approach!

quote:

Originally posted by restrict well, I'm using vinyl and just vinyl, I have a shitty mixer right now so pitch correct is out of the question, I'm guessing my best bet is to find harmonic matches that have 'close' bpm relativity. The +2% thing really helps, thank you Jer

if you alter a tune by +/-6% you have altered the key one semitone (i think). thus, if theres less than 3% difference between both tunes then youre fine.

i mix exclusively in key, but i allow myself dodgy mixes if a tune is more than 3% out. too many tunes to remember how they all fit together. youve gotta cut yourself some slack!! i just try and remember which tunes are a lot slower/faster so i'll know that a track is actually more likely to be in 7A than 12A when i mix it as it needs to be sped up a lot.

i dont look into any of this shit i just know what the original key of tracks are.

quote:

Originally posted by sleepydragon i dont look into any of this shit i just know what the original key of tracks are.

And you know this because....

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.