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-- am I on the wrong track making kicks?

am I on the wrong track making kicks?

Ok so I've been reading all these recent posts (by gk_nz, substorm and others) about making kick drums, and one question I have is whether its always wrong to use gain on the EQ? Should kicks only be cut using EQ? What I've been doing is layering samples until I like the overall sound, and then comparing how a kick from a professional track looks like in a spectral analyser, and trying to get my layered kick to look similar. However, to accomplish this, I have been using gain on the EQ. Have I just completely lost the plot? I fear I have

Trust your ears when you do percussion. FFT spectral analysis is suited towards long repeating tones and not bursts. But they do work.

I use gain all the time making kicks. Especially at the low end if I need to beef the bass. Nothing wrong with doing that, but maybe if you find you aren't getting the sound you want, you should try going about it a different way.

remember that compression plays a major role in determining how a kick sounds.

you can get the deepest, slowest kick in the world to punch hard if you know what you are doing.

do a search on common practice of compressing kick drums. once you understand the theory then see what happens when you go to extremes. set a limiter on your final stage so the output doesnt go over 0db now slam the gain on the compressor up. see what happens.. tweek the attack and the ration/threshold. things will start to happen i think

At the initial creative stage you can do anything you want, be it EQ, filter, compress, gate etc to get the sound you are happy with. So keep doing what your doing now if it works for you.

It's only at later stages such as mix down and mastering that EQ cut rather than boost is recommended as you are trying to fit the sounds together not give you kick a loud thump.

FJ

quote:

Originally posted by flutlicht junky At the initial creative stage you can do anything you want, be it EQ, filter, compress, gate etc to get the sound you are happy with. So keep doing what your doing now if it works for you. It's only at later stages such as mix down and mastering that EQ cut rather than boost is recommended as you are trying to fit the sounds together not give you kick a loud thump. FJ

Exactly. When you're mixing you want to create room not take it away, that's why cutting is preferred.

With analog EQ you can sometimes get some artifacts when boosting frequencies. With digital EQ it's not really an issue.

It's still better to cut most of the time, though, because otherwise you don't have a ceiling for your gain (you're boosting above 0 dB) and it's easy to lose track of what you're boosting and end up going nuts with it. If you only cut, you'll never clip.

Not that big a deal, in the end. If you need to boost, boost. Just be aware of what you're doing and make sure you don't clip or introduce artifacts.

also i noticed most eq's sound pretty much the same cutting, it seems like boosting is what they really have their own character in.

If you want to boost, boost! But if you have to go to massive extreme's then perhaps its a better idea you change the sounds you are layering and picking out characteristics you want your sound to have, because most likely your trying to create something that isn't in the sound... another thing you could try is pitching the sound up or down although this will change something else in the sound but it can be another useful tool with making your sounds.

Diginut is right about digital eq's. Of course some are better than others. Phasing can still be an issue but to far less of an extent in the digital realm..... Here's a quote from an article I read that may explain about phasing in eq's, just in case you don't know what phasing in eq's is about.

"affecting the frequencies that we have chosen for equalisation, also affects the phase of those selected frequencies, in relation to the unaffected frequencies. The process itself also affects the frequency response of the signal being treated. We are talking about tiny offsets here. Every time a frequency range is selected and treated, the affected frequencies will exhibit displacement, in relation to the unaffected frequencies. This offset is phase. Whereas we are not talking about big swirling phase effects, as in guitar phasing, we are, however, talking about the pure definition of phase. This is probably not something that you will hear as phase, but it is something that affects our perception of the treated frequencies."

Mystical is right as well, many eq's have a different characters when boosting various ranges so play around, do super extreme boosts with various eq's to get an idea of how they react and sound to low frequency boosts and then taper it back to where you feel it sounds right for your sound design purpose. Be careful on the low end because your room acoustics could disguise whats really going on so you may want to see what its like on another system perhaps in a different acoustic space.... unless of course your comfortable with your studio and in that case dont worry.

Re: am I on the wrong track making kicks?

quote:

Originally posted by Xavi Ok so I've been reading all these recent posts (by gk_nz, substorm and others) about making kick drums, and one question I have is whether its always wrong to use gain on the EQ? Should kicks only be cut using EQ? What I've been doing is layering samples until I like the overall sound, and then comparing how a kick from a professional track looks like in a spectral analyser, and trying to get my layered kick to look similar. However, to accomplish this, I have been using gain on the EQ. Have I just completely lost the plot? I fear I have

Are you enjoying yourself?

An option is to screw making your own kicks and get samples. Making your own kicks can seem like a good idea but in reality, tweaking a kick for hours when you can just buy samples is a bit mental tbh.


Bim Bim - Oh more low end. Bom Bom - Oh less mids. Boom Boom - Hey that's better but could do with some high frequencies so I'll layer another kick. Dish Dish - Too much high end. Doom Doom - That's not too bad. Puts kick in mix - Oh that's crap, but it's ok on it's own. And repeat.

yup then you save it for another track..

but say the kick samples on VECS - are you saying you can just use them straight out without adding any effects / eq?

thanks

im sure its been done on released tracks.

another trick is to smash a limiter on your kick so when you are bossting your not clipping...but in some cases you can get that weird bouncy sound...I'm still a mess when it comes to eqing but I've learned that some boosting in the right places is ok.

Well, the general rule with EQ is:

If you HAVE TO boost, do it wide, don't do it narrow, and do it very lightly.

Generally you will cut, wide or narrow, small or large.

And use a good EQ. Don't use that pussy shit bundled with your host or that piece of crap outboard you picked up at a garage sale.

check out ElectriQ, posihfopit. Its free and critically acclaimed as the best of software EQs

quote:

Originally posted by camsr Well, the general rule with EQ is: If you HAVE TO boost, do it wide, don't do it narrow, and do it very lightly. Generally you will cut, wide or narrow, small or large. And use a good EQ. Don't use that pussy shit bundled with your host or that piece of crap outboard you picked up at a garage sale. check out ElectriQ, posihfopit. Its free and critically acclaimed as the best of software EQs

werd, electriq is awesome!

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja im sure its been done on released tracks.

Are you sure about this? I've used individual samples from VECS without too many effects and i've put them in my amateur productions, and people always comment about the kick being bad.

yea im sure

quote:

Originally posted by Xavi Are you sure about this? I've used individual samples from VECS without too many effects and i've put them in my amateur productions, and people always comment about the kick being bad.

It's not enough just to use a good kick, you have to process it and mix it properly.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut It's not enough just to use a good kick, you have to process it and mix it properly.

true. but really a kick in a decent sample pack shouldnt need any real changes imo. just mix it well and a good 'stock' kick should do the business without any work on it.

ElectriQ, posihfopit is only for windows?no mac?

"stock" kick?

Take for example, the very first kick on VECS. Are you sure that would be found on its own in a professional track?

Cheers.

you're on the wrong track lol

just listen to vec 1 clubby 13... been used in 1000 hard style tracks without any changes lol.

I've been making kicks all day today, it's enormously satisfying once you get into a groove. I got more than 50 kicks out of this session, kicks that nobody else can get from a sample CD or anywhere else, MY kicks.

Keep at it! Don't worry too much about EQ boost or cut, seriously. If you have a good ear, and just keep doing what you're doing, and USE those kicks you make, you'll quickly notice what works and what doesn't. I recommend you keep a couple of project files for making kicks so you can just pick up where you left off last time.

quote:

Originally posted by Xavi "stock" kick? Take for example, the very first kick on VECS. Are you sure that would be found on its own in a professional track? Cheers.

Just listen to any of the Extreme Euphoria CDs and VECS is all over them!! lol

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