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CDJ looping

alright. i'm in the market for new cdjs to replace my old cdj-100s'. and one of the main features i'd like the new ones to have is proper seamless looping. so which models have proper useful looping?
i'd like to loop 16 or 32 bars from the intro and possibly from the outro too. and they'd have to be seamless as i'd be using them for mixing. i don't mind spending a little time to set the loop up if that's the only way to get it seamless.
i'm mainly looking at the pioneer cdj-200 and denon dn-s3500 as they both have looping and 0,02% pitch accuracy and aren't expensive as fuck (cdj-1000).

Beware that the looping on a CDJ800 mk2 is a little bit dodgy - the out point "moves" back by about 2 frames after you've hit the button (i.e. if you hit the loop button perfectly in time it returns to the loop in point perfectly in time but the 2nd and subsequent times it reaches the loop out point, it will be slightly out of time, meaning you have to adjust the out point)... and no, it's not just me being a retard when hitting the button I can do it fine on a mk1 or on a CDJ1000 and others have reported the same problem.

If, as you say, you're willing to take a few seconds to set up the loop then you'll be fine - just set the loop, adjust the outpoint so that it loops back correctly every time and you're away. But it does make on-the-fly looping a little bit tricky (basically you just have to get used to moving the out point back by 2 frames as soon as you've set the loop).

adjusting a 16 or 32 bar loop to get it perfect is going to take a while. a 32 bar loop, 128 beats, is about a minute. at least on the cdj1000mk3 you can save loops to a hot cue so once you get it right you can call as needed.
most players have seamless loop these days, it takes some practice to be able to loop perfectly first go though

The easiest way to get a long loop accurate on Pioneer CDJsis to store the loop in point in CDJ mode, then get near to the loop out point, press pause to go into stutter, find the loop out point as you would with the loop in then just hit loop out... obviously you can't just do this on the fly!

sorry, i meant 16 or 32 beat loop, not bar.

is the looping on the cdj-200 same as the cdj-800? is it possible to create a 32 beat loop on the start of the track and a 32 beat loop on the end of the same track and have it play without any problems and mix into the track and into the next one without any problems?
basically what i'd like to know is which player has better looping the cdj-200 or the dn-s3500. i can't go try them out anywhere as they don't sell them anywhere around here.

They both kind of "suck" actually.

Even the CDJ-1000's suck.

You can only get the loop so close, as you can only adjust the loop points to within a frame on the CD. So while it's definately possible to create loops you can mix into/out of, you'll likely be making adjustments during the mix constantly to keep it in.

If you want seemless looping with just a single button press, look at this:
http://www.redsound.com/

I've also had great luck using Torq's looping feature.

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 They both kind of "suck" actually. Even the CDJ-1000's suck. You can only get the loop so close, as you can only adjust the loop points to within a frame on the CD. So while it's definately possible to create loops you can mix into/out of, you'll likely be making adjustments during the mix constantly to keep it in. If you want seemless looping with just a single button press, look at this: http://www.redsound.com/ I've also had great luck using Torq's looping feature.

yeah, i've thought about the soundbite xl but i don't think it does what i want really. i think it might bring more hassle as you'd have to mix into the loop and out of the loop. so i find it kinda unnecessarily "difficult". i'd just want simple looping to extend intros and outros of some tracks as some tracks have ridiculously short intros or/and outros. i wonder what is the looping on these cdjs for then if it doesn't work well with mixing tracks.

Yeah I don't know either... I mean its possible, just not very easy to use on the fly.

I find that Torq kicks ass for that though. One button, and it's nearly perfect in time every time.

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Originally posted by skip yeah, i've thought about the soundbite xl but i don't think it does what i want really. i think it might bring more hassle as you'd have to mix into the loop and out of the loop. so i find it kinda unnecessarily "difficult". i'd just want simple looping to extend intros and outros of some tracks as some tracks have ridiculously short intros or/and outros. i wonder what is the looping on these cdjs for then if it doesn't work well with mixing tracks.

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 Yeah I don't know either... I mean its possible, just not very easy to use on the fly. I find that Torq kicks ass for that though. One button, and it's nearly perfect in time every time.

i've been thinking about getting torq or serato, but i don't have a laptop so that would end up costing me way too much.

quote:

Originally posted by skip sorry, i meant 16 or 32 beat loop, not bar. is the looping on the cdj-200 same as the cdj-800? is it possible to create a 32 beat loop on the start of the track and a 32 beat loop on the end of the same track and have it play without any problems and mix into the track and into the next one without any problems? basically what i'd like to know is which player has better looping the cdj-200 or the dn-s3500. i can't go try them out anywhere as they don't sell them anywhere around here.

I haven't tested the looping on a CDJ200 particularly carefully but I've never heard any complaints so I expect it's actually better, more along the lines of the quality of the CDJ1000 - i.e. it actually puts the loop points in the right place! But yes, functionally it's the same looping system. The benefit of the 800 is you've got auto beat loop buttons that automatically set the loop to 1 beat, 2 beats, a bar etc, but it's not very accurate so you're better off doing it manually most of the time.

And yeah Ryan, I agree - seeing that the whole thing's played from buffers there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to set cue points as accurately as every sample (44100th of a second!) if they really wanted to let you be accurate, although of course then they'd probably have to have some kind of switchable cue point accuracy mode cos otherwise it'd take years to step through even a short time step by step.

On the Pioneer vs Denon issue, in terms of looping I think you'll find the Denon has got a lot more features and I've heard a lot of people say that they find the looping on a Denon (normally referring to S1000 or S5000, although I gather the looping systems on all of them are very similar - the loops on the S3500 apparently has more features than any of the others) more intuitive (it's not linked to the cue point etc), unlike most of their features.

Maybe Pioneer or Denon should license the RedSound technology and incorporate it into the decks.

I don't think RedSound have got anything particularly revolutionary in their sampler - it's simply the way they've decided to lay it out and the interface they've given it that seems quite popular, wouldn't be too hard to recreate.

I'm actually in the process of building a digital sampler for my uni design project, not that it'll be particularly good lol - I had all sorts of ideas for it but I've left everything to the last minute and now haven't got time to implement loads of them!

Well what makes their sampler unique is that is does the beat detection very very well, in hardware. That's not such a simple feat.

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Originally posted by Stu Cox I don't think RedSound have got anything particularly revolutionary in their sampler - it's simply the way they've decided to lay it out and the interface they've given it that seems quite popular, wouldn't be too hard to recreate. I'm actually in the process of building a digital sampler for my uni design project, not that it'll be particularly good lol - I had all sorts of ideas for it but I've left everything to the last minute and now haven't got time to implement loads of them!

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 Well what makes their sampler unique is that is does the beat detection very very well, in hardware. That's not such a simple feat.

Not meaning to split hairs, but I expect it's middleware (i.e. programmed into an embedded DSP) which is still tricky, but the DJM600/800/DNS1500 all do that too... yeah the RedSound's a lot smaller, but if you're talking about embedding it into a mixer then you've got more room to play with.

Still if the work is already done, why reinvent the wheel?

It makes more sense to have it on the CDJ's. Otherwise you have to record your loop on the mixer, then mix into that from the orignal track, then mix the loop into the next track, etc.

The CDJ-800's already have this type of looping, it just doesn't work well enough and isn't configurable enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox Not meaning to split hairs, but I expect it's middleware (i.e. programmed into an embedded DSP) which is still tricky, but the DJM600/800/DNS1500 all do that too... yeah the RedSound's a lot smaller, but if you're talking about embedding it into a mixer then you've got more room to play with.

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Originally posted by Ryan0751 Still if the work is already done, why reinvent the wheel? It makes more sense to have it on the CDJ's. Otherwise you have to record your loop on the mixer, then mix into that from the orignal track, then mix the loop into the next track, etc. The CDJ-800's already have this type of looping, it just doesn't work well enough and isn't configurable enough.

Haha yeah sorry, I'm tired, we were talking about putting it in the CDJ weren't we. Replace "mixer" above with "CDJ" and change "DJM600/800/DNS1500" to "just about any CDJ" lol

one feature I wish pioneer would add to their loops is the ability to set a loop, and have the track play normally until it hits that predefined loop then start looping.

sure I can save a loop to my hot cues and press for that to start at the right time, but it's not easy to get it right on, and only the CDJ1000mk3 and cmx3000 even let you save loops to hot cues.

Denons can do this can't they?

You can do it but it's a little bit awkward - set up your loop and get it looping, then and use the search button (<<) to rewind to the start of the track (searching with these buttons ignores the loop, i.e. it doesn't just rewind through the loop over and over again like if you rewind with the platter), but make sure you don't go past the start of the track if you've got autocue on cos it'll set your cue point there, thus messing up your loop!

Then play from the start as usual, with the loop still active (loop buttons both flashing away) - when it reaches the loop region, it'll just start looping.

i use serato for my loops... you can zoom in and adjust the in/out points very easily. i love it! that's one of the main reasons i use serato along w/ my cdj's (1000mk3's). i'd reccomend serato and cdj200's for ya.

bisco

can i set a loop so on the cdj-200 that it loops 32 or 16 beats from the beginning AND then loop 32 or 16 beats from the end of the SAME track?

if not, then i think i'll go for the denon if it can do that. can anyone confirm that the dn-s3500 can do it?


thanks for everyone's replies.

skip, just get the deck that you like the best as far as the most features you want....because looping on CDJs will always (mostly) come down to you manually adjusting the in or out points down by a frame or more make the loop sound right.

"seamless looping" still means you have to do some work - doesnt mean it does the work for you.

setting a 16 or 32 beat loop is TOO long.... why: if loop is too long, then it takes too much time for you hear how the loop restarts (about 10 seconds for 16 beats). with only 4 beats, i can set/edit/audition the loop in a matter of seconds. also, a track won't change much in 4 beats & makes for a better sounding loop. you have to hear a loop play 2-4 times before it is good to go, if it started off by a frame or two.

I sometimes set a loop on the incoming track, but NEVER set a loop to exit a track...because when you set a loop on the live track you have problems:

1. the first time you set the loop, there is a good chance the loopin/out points will be slightly off and there is obvious 'skipping'/error IN YOUR LIVE MIX until you fix it it...setting loops is best done in your headphones

2. the loop will play at a different BPM (because it's a loop and you dont know where the perfect frames fall)....now you have to go back and beatmatch again to bring in the next track & and your live track is stuck in a loop until you get matched - and people could notice that....

regards,
Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Z skip, just get the deck that you like the best as far as the most features you want....because looping on CDJs will always (mostly) come down to you manually adjusting the in or out points down by a frame or more make the loop sound right. "seamless looping" still means you have to do some work - doesnt mean it does the work for you. setting a 16 or 32 beat loop is TOO long.... why: if loop is too long, then it takes too much time for you hear how the loop restarts (about 10 seconds for 16 beats). with only 4 beats, i can set/edit/audition the loop in a matter of seconds. also, a track won't change much in 4 beats & makes for a better sounding loop. you have to hear a loop play 2-4 times before it is good to go, if it started off by a frame or two. I sometimes set a loop on the incoming track, but NEVER set a loop to exit a track...because when you set a loop on the live track you have problems: 1. the first time you set the loop, there is a good chance the loopin/out points will be slightly off and there is obvious 'skipping'/error IN YOUR LIVE MIX until you fix it it...setting loops is best done in your headphones 2. the loop will play at a different BPM (because it's a loop and you dont know where the perfect frames fall)....now you have to go back and beatmatch again to bring in the next track & and your live track is stuck in a loop until you get matched - and people could notice that.... regards, Patrick

setting a 16 or 32 beat loop is definitely not too long. it's exactly what i want. i don't want the looping to mess up my phrasing. if i make a 4 beat loop it might get messed up. if i make a 32 beat loop it will most definitely not get messed up.
and i have no problems setting up a loop manually. i'd think it would be rather easy. just find the first beat of the track for example and the 33rd beat of the track and set the loop between those. shouldn't be that hard.
and i would really like to loop the ending of some tracks as some tracks have been edited so badly that the outro just isn't long enough for a smooth transition. also some tracks are produced like that too. and i would like to extend their intros/outros. i can't see anything wrong in that. and naturally i would set the ending loop to the track before i even bring it in (as i'll know that i want to extend the outro even before i play the track).
now i have to do all my looping on my computer and burn the tracks on cd and the play those as my cdjs don't have looping. i'd want to get rid of this process and do it with the cdjs as it would be much more flexible that way.

quote:

Originally posted by skip setting a 16 or 32 beat loop is definitely not too long. it's exactly what i want. i don't want the looping to mess up my phrasing. if i make a 4 beat loop it might get messed up. if i make a 32 beat loop it will most definitely not get messed up.

Personally, I don't think that a 32 beat (8 bar) loop would sound that good cause if it's a loop from the intro then it would be building up towards the end of that phrase and then when it loops from the start, it would sound like something has been taken out of the track (which is exactly what has happened).

And this would apply to looping 32 beats from the outro of a tune as it gets towards the end of an 8 bar phrase it is dying down, and then when it loops it would sound like something has just been introduced.

Obvisouly this doesn't apply to every tune out there but I think you'll find that 1 bar and 2 bar loops are the norm.

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Originally posted by agentdansmith Personally, I don't think that a 32 beat (8 bar) loop would sound that good cause if it's a loop from the intro then it would be building up towards the end of that phrase and then when it loops from the start, it would sound like something has been taken out of the track (which is exactly what has happened). And this would apply to looping 32 beats from the outro of a tune as it gets towards the end of an 8 bar phrase it is dying down, and then when it loops it would sound like something has just been introduced. Obvisouly this doesn't apply to every tune out there but I think you'll find that 1 bar and 2 bar loops are the norm.

i very much disagree with this. something is added or removed every 32 beats, so if you loop the 32 beats it hasn't added or removed anything yet. when i've looped something on my computer i've always used a 32 beat loop, except on one occasion i had to use a 16 beat loop as a 32 beat loop would have gone just as you said. and i've had no problems with these loops whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by skip i very much disagree with this. something is added or removed every 32 beats, so if you loop the 32 beats it hasn't added or removed anything yet. when i've looped something on my computer i've always used a 32 beat loop, except on one occasion i had to use a 16 beat loop as a 32 beat loop would have gone just as you said. and i've had no problems with these loops whatsoever.

Depends on what you're playing then really. You can get away with 32 beat loops with techno for example but not sure about a lot of trance music as it usually has a synth or somehting similar building up during an 8bar phrase and would abruptly (sp?) cut back to the beginnning when looped.

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