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-- Row over Sarkozy's paedophilia comment refuses to go away

Row over Sarkozy's paedophilia comment refuses to go away

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/st...2053956,00.html


5pm

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Row over Sarkozy's paedophilia comment refuses to go away


Kim Willsher in Paris
Tuesday April 10, 2007
Guardian Unlimited




The French rightwing presidential hopeful Nicolas Sarkozy defended himself on television today after widespread criticism of an interview in which he said paedophiles are born, not made.
Mr Sarkozy defended his view, outlined in a philosophy magazine, that individuals might be genetically predisposed to molest children. "What part is innate and what part is acquired? At least let's debate it, let's not close the door to all debate," he said.

He added: "I'm inclined personally to think that you are born paedophile and it's a problem that we don't know how to treat this pathology."
5pm

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Row over Sarkozy's paedophilia comment refuses to go away


Kim Willsher in Paris
Tuesday April 10, 2007
Guardian Unlimited


Nicolas Sarkozy. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images

The French rightwing presidential hopeful Nicolas Sarkozy defended himself on television today after widespread criticism of an interview in which he said paedophiles are born, not made.
Mr Sarkozy defended his view, outlined in a philosophy magazine, that individuals might be genetically predisposed to molest children. "What part is innate and what part is acquired? At least let's debate it, let's not close the door to all debate," he said.

He added: "I'm inclined personally to think that you are born paedophile and it's a problem that we don't know how to treat this pathology."


Article continues

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Referring to young people killing themselves, Mr Sarkozy also spoke of a "genetic fragility, a preconditioned pain".
"I don't want to give parents a complex. It's not exclusively the parents' fault every time a youngster commits suicide," he said.

The archbishop of Paris, Monsignor Andr� Vingt-Trois, led criticism of Mr Sarkozy.

"What seems most serious to me is the idea that you can't change the course of destiny," he said.

Marie-George Buffet of the Communist party said Mr Sarkozy's remarks were "extremely serious" and from another era.

"It goes back on everything that has evolved through science in our society," she said. "That is to recognise that every man and every woman is free and not that their whole life is already written in their genes and there's nothing they can do about it."

Philippe de Villiers, another rightwing candidate, also affirmed the principle of man's "liberty" and excluded all idea of "predetermination".

Fran�ois Bayrou, third in the polls behind frontrunner Mr Sarkozy and the Socialist candidate S�gol�ne Royal, had already declared the comments to be worrying.


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a view of what's going on in here with the comming elections......

i wish i knew more of what is going on in that election.

i know Sarkozy (cool name) has opened up a fairy sizable lead from the Socialist, Royale (another cool name). it seems that Sarkozy has made himself the more sane candidate, but Royale has the younger welfare state on her side. anyway, thats how i interpret it at least.

France is just fascinating to me.

maybe it's a culture thing i'm overlooking, but how does this hurt Sarkozy?

quote:

Marie-George Buffet of the Communist party said Mr Sarkozy's remarks were "extremely serious" and from another era.

Yeah, the Nazi era. They had some peculiar views on ancestral inheritance too.

sounds like the lefties are trying to "Bork" him.

Im usually a liberal person but it's a bit worrying to see that even le pen who represents the extreme right party appears now even less dangerous than sarkozy

yesterday i was watching the news and heard le pen saying "oh well portuguese who are not french....and live in france first of all we should consider them as european citizens right so they are welcome"

i mean in 2002 for the last elections he was the one claiming "the france belongs to the french"

on the other hand sarkozy is mixed up with the will to "make a minister about immigration" and to send back home all the people who are illegally in france

u got it .....both are trying to get all the votes from the people who are not sure yet if they will vote le pen or sarkozy



actually these elections are so depressing ...economy cant stop falling down....we are lacking of competitivity and when u see the people who will govern us (let's consider 3 or ...4 serious potential candidates)

it gives u the idea of escaping far away

quote:

Originally posted by CranberryJuice Im usually a liberal person but it's a bit worrying to see that even le pen who represents the extreme right party appears now even less dangerous than sarkozy yesterday i was watching the news and heard le pen saying "oh well portuguese who are not french....and live in france first of all we should consider them as european citizens right so they are welcome" i mean in 2002 for the last elections he was the one claiming "the france belongs to the french" on the other hand sarkozy is mixed up with the will to "make a minister about immigration" and to send back home all the people who are illegally in france u got it .....both are trying to get all the votes from the people who are not sure yet if they will vote le pen or sarkozy actually these elections are so depressing ...economy cant stop falling down....we are lacking of competitivity and when u see the people who will govern us (let's consider 3 or ...4 serious potential candidates) it gives u the idea of escaping far away

It's a real tough one. I would say the comments about Paedophiles is a difficult subject to tackle. For an example some people are born gay others are born in the wrong body they cannot help that, others make a choice to become that way. With paedophiles it's a very different ball game a lot of them have and come from a loving family brought up in a decent background, others were abused as kids and unfortunatly do the same in return.

It would be good to see some scientific information and case studies by Psychologists. Even though I would say you'd be pushed to find anything scientific like a certain gene or horomones present which make people turn so evil.

On the far right comments like France for French I actually agree in some aspects. People should be aloud to immigrate and be proud of their roots, but on their behalf they need to make an effort to intergrate into the country they've immigrated too.

I agree on the illegal immigrant crackdowns too. I agree in building camps, where people stay for 3 months they learn about the country they're moving too and document information about the immigrants real identity. Once this information is checked out and documented then their given a social security number and let out into society.

However I wish immigration would be based on a points system and used in order to bridge gaps in the labour market.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan I agree on the illegal immigrant crackdowns too. I agree in building camps, where people stay for 3 months they learn about the country they're moving too and document information about the immigrants real identity.

Aww im sorry but this idea of staying in a camp for 3 months sounds awful to me , even though i see ur point i dunno what about human rights dear?

like myself u see i wanna immigrate when im done with studies to work abroad and i wouldnt imagine myself in the worse case staying parked in some camp the time to get my info checked

quote:

Originally posted by CranberryJuice Aww im sorry but this idea of staying in a camp for 3 months sounds awful to me , even though i see ur point i dunno what about human rights dear? like myself u see i wanna immigrate when im done with studies to work abroad and i wouldnt imagine myself in the worse case staying parked in some camp the time to get my info checked

Only illegals that should be for and asylum seekers. If your a geniune immigrant who has filled out all the paper work had your details checked then I think your free enter. However they should set up weekly classes for geniune immigrants to attend covering subjects about on the countries history and laws etc.

A force de courir derri�re Le Pen il finit par dire des conneries du m�me genre.

cant really say im agreeing with all ur ideas

but it's fine i respect them !

alright it's time to stop being lazy ....

gotta study

i'll try to debate a bit later in the day

quote:

Originally posted by d-miurge A force de courir derri�re Le Pen il finit par dire des conneries du m�me genre.

il essaye de lui piquer ses votes oui!
et au final ....le pen finit par apparaitre comme un doux petit agneau

what a joke

Of course pedophilia is an inborn sexual preference, determined by genetics, similar to homosexuality, being left-handed, etc.

The science of sex is fascinating and I advise everyone here to read the book "Sperm Wars", by British scientist Robin Baker, which describes and explains (in a very scholarly way) the origins of all sexual behavior.

Does it matter if it's nature or nurture? Especially since it's most likely both.

I am truly surprised that the pharmaceutical companies haven't come up with a superdrug to make everything all right.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby Does it matter if it's nature or nurture?

Of course it matters. Don't you want to understand the scientific origin of this behavior, if you want to prevent it?

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd Of course it matters. Don't you want to understand the scientific origin of this behavior, if you want to prevent it?

Unfortunately, the realm of psychology is far beyond our current grasp of "scientific" empiricism.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby Unfortunately, the realm of psychology is far beyond our current grasp of "scientific" empiricism.

Psychology is rooted in evolution and science.
Maybe you haven't been following the latest research, in which case it would behoove you to educate yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd Psychology is rooted in evolution and science. Maybe you haven't been following the latest research, in which case it would behoove you to educate yourself.

Psychology is rooted in environment, evolution, and a number of symbiotic systems working together, whether it be the pharmacodynamics of the individuals intake, bacteria, the stresses of living in a 9-5 world, etc. Oh right... that would be ENVIRONMENT, in a sense.

I see you have a lot of faith in science, which is completely fine and understandable.

But honestly, I wouldn't use pretentious words like "behoove" when telling someone to educate themselves, in the unlikely event that they call you on your bullshit.

I'm sure you've got no idea what a receptor or a binder is or does, or the interacting physiology that makes up a life and consciousness, but I can assure you that even our best strides in studying the empirical data available using scientific method is sketchy.

That's why we know vague natural biosynthesis routes of certain compounds, and make assumptions thereof. For example, if you just dropped a tab of E, you probably wouldn't want to drink alcohol since they both end up being metabolized by the same enzyme in the liver (in this case, *from what we know*, cytochrome p450). But what about all the enzymes and interactions we can't account for?

Which in itself backs up the environmental aspects of many facets of psychology. These are bundles of organisms that may exist independent of the individual depending on their internal and external climate. Different bacteria favor different symbiosis, which in turn could lead to a lot of minute changes that are unknown to us. Even the DNA layers we've found, and not even decoded, probably contain subcode that we can't even detect yet. And keep in mind that DNA is NOT static; it is a dynamic force that is subject to polymorphism and protein binding, and not necessarily only in "random" fashions. That doesn't mean I wouldn't worry if I was the one with the trigger sequence.

Anyway, since science appears to be your favorite religion (well, hey, it's one of the better choices you've got in the aftermath of the Greek logicbombs.)... you've probably seen this already, but if not, I'd behoove you to check it out. It's the latest research () and might help fill in the gaps with an example.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel...-precision.html

So there we have an external organism becoming an internal "feature", and even going so far as to somehow melt the obvious "right" and "wrong" chip in the rats brain.

oh and check this out too... it clearly sets one of many examples of how genealogy relates to psychology and can be triggered directly by events in the environment, which can include a person's thoughts. In their example it was a virus.

http://www.steungroep.nl/archief/st...sci20050723.txt

The reason we can't understand psychology through purely empirical means alone is that the human element, the life element, is not some clunky invention we've made. The universe made this shit, and it's designed to move, and that usually entails survival. Survival in a universe as crazy as this, with many factors to consider at all times, would require a GREAT deal of adaptability.

Both the environment, the consciousness of the animal, and their history, genetics in this case, would need to be adaptable for anything to even hope to survive, whether it be the individual or the species as a collective whole.

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