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Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

A thought-provoking, piquant polemic against alcohol and narcotics from the venerable Leo Tolstoy: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Why_D...y_Themselves%3F

It merits a reading whether or not you smoke or drink, and especially if you do, for there's a good deal of food for thought here.

I've quoted some notable extracts, as well:

"When do lads begin to smoke? Usually when they lose their childish innocence. How is it that smokers can abandon smoking when they come among more moral conditions of life, and again start smoking as soon as they fall among a depraved set? Why do gamblers almost all smoke? Why among women do those who lead a regular life smoke least? Why do prostitutes and madmen all smoke?

Habit is habit, but evidently smoking stands in some definite connection with the craving to stifle conscience, and achieves the end required of it."

"Everyone of average education considers it inadmissible, ill-bred, and inhumane to infringe the peace, comfort, and still more the health of others for his own pleasure. No one would allow himself to wet a room in which people are sitting, or to make a noise, shout, let in cold, hot, or ill-smelling air, or commit acts that incommode or harm others. But out of a thousand smokers not one will shrink from producing unwholesome smoke in a room where the air is breathed by non-smoking women and children."

"But even if non-smoking adults did not object to tobacco smoke, it could not be pleasant or good for the children whose consent no one asks. Yet people who are honorable and humane in all other respects smoke in the presence of children at dinner in small rooms, vitiating the air with tobacco smoke, without feeling the slightest twinge of conscience."

"When a man works he is always conscious of two beings in himself: the one works, the other appraises the work. The stricter the appraisement the slower and the better is the work; and vice versa, when the appraiser is under the influence of something that stupefies him, more work gets done, but its quality is poorer."

"It seems to people that a slight stupefaction (like tobacco), a little darkening of the judgment, cannot have any important influence. But to think so is like supposing that it may harm a watch to be struck against a stone, but that a little dirt introduced into it cannot be harmful."

"We must, as far as it depends on us, try to put ourselves and others in conditions which will not disturb the clearness and delicacy of thought necessary for the correct working of conscience, and must not act in the contrary manner�trying to hinder and confuse the work of conscience by the use of stupefying substances.

For man is a spiritual as well as an animal being. He may be moved by things that influence his spiritual nature, or by things that influence his animal nature, as a clock may be moved by its hands or by its main wheel. And just as it is best to regulate the movement of a clock by means of its inner mechanism, so a man�oneself or another�is best regulated by means of his consciousness. And as with a clock one has to take special care of that part by means of which one can best move the inner mechanism, so with a man one must take special care of the cleanness and clearness of consciousness which is the thing that best moves the whole man."

"To doubt this is impossible; everyone knows it. But a need to deceive oneself arises. People are not as anxious that consciousness should work correctly as they are that it should seem to them that what they are doing is right, and they deliberately make use of substances that disturb the proper working of their consciousness."

"People drink and smoke, not casually, not from dullness, not to cheer themselves up, not because it is pleasant, but in order to drown the voice of conscience in themselves."

"Thanks to self-stupefaction...life does not accord with conscience, so conscience is made to bend to life."

"A man feels that to decide the questions confronting him needs labor�often painful labor�and he wishes to evade this. If he had no means of stupefying his faculties he could not expel from his consciousness the questions that confront him, and the necessity of solving them would be forced upon him.

But man finds that there exists a means to drive off these questions whenever they present themselves�and he uses it.

As soon as the questions awaiting solution begin to torment him, he has recourse to these means, and avoids the disquietude evoked by the troublesome questions. Consciousness ceases to demand their solution, and the unsolved questions remain unsolved till his next period of enlightenment."

"For dozens of years past, all the European peoples have been busy devising the very best ways of killing people, and teaching as many young men as possible, as soon as they reach manhood, how to murder. Everyone knows that there can be no invasion by barbarians, but that these preparations made by the different civilized and Christian nations are directed against one another; everyone knows that this is burdensome, painful, inconvenient, ruinous, immoral, impious, and irrational�but everyone continues to prepare for mutual murder.

Some devise political combinations to decide who is to kill whom and with what allies, others direct those who are being taught to murder, and others again yield�against their will, against their conscience, against their reason�to these preparations for murder.

Could sober people do these things? Only drunkards who never reach a state of sobriety could do them and live on in the horrible state of discord between life and conscience in which, not onIy in this but in all other respects, the people of our society are now living.

Never before, I suppose, have people lived with the demands of their conscience so evidently in contradiction to their actions."

Re: Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

quote:

Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

Because they like to make their minds or emotions work a bit differently for a while. Pretty simple.

Re: Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred A thought-provoking, piquant polemic against alcohol and narcotics from the venerable Leo Tolstoy: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Why_D...y_Themselves%3F It merits a reading whether or not you smoke or drink, and especially if you do, for there's a good deal of food for thought here. I've quoted some notable extracts, as well: "When do lads begin to smoke? Usually when they lose their childish innocence. How is it that smokers can abandon smoking when they come among more moral conditions of life, and again start smoking as soon as they fall among a depraved set? Why do gamblers almost all smoke? Why among women do those who lead a regular life smoke least? Why do prostitutes and madmen all smoke? Habit is habit, but evidently smoking stands in some definite connection with the craving to stifle conscience, and achieves the end required of it." "Everyone of average education considers it inadmissible, ill-bred, and inhumane to infringe the peace, comfort, and still more the health of others for his own pleasure. No one would allow himself to wet a room in which people are sitting, or to make a noise, shout, let in cold, hot, or ill-smelling air, or commit acts that incommode or harm others. But out of a thousand smokers not one will shrink from producing unwholesome smoke in a room where the air is breathed by non-smoking women and children." "But even if non-smoking adults did not object to tobacco smoke, it could not be pleasant or good for the children whose consent no one asks. Yet people who are honorable and humane in all other respects smoke in the presence of children at dinner in small rooms, vitiating the air with tobacco smoke, without feeling the slightest twinge of conscience." "When a man works he is always conscious of two beings in himself: the one works, the other appraises the work. The stricter the appraisement the slower and the better is the work; and vice versa, when the appraiser is under the influence of something that stupefies him, more work gets done, but its quality is poorer." "It seems to people that a slight stupefaction (like tobacco), a little darkening of the judgment, cannot have any important influence. But to think so is like supposing that it may harm a watch to be struck against a stone, but that a little dirt introduced into it cannot be harmful." "We must, as far as it depends on us, try to put ourselves and others in conditions which will not disturb the clearness and delicacy of thought necessary for the correct working of conscience, and must not act in the contrary manner�trying to hinder and confuse the work of conscience by the use of stupefying substances. For man is a spiritual as well as an animal being. He may be moved by things that influence his spiritual nature, or by things that influence his animal nature, as a clock may be moved by its hands or by its main wheel. And just as it is best to regulate the movement of a clock by means of its inner mechanism, so a man�oneself or another�is best regulated by means of his consciousness. And as with a clock one has to take special care of that part by means of which one can best move the inner mechanism, so with a man one must take special care of the cleanness and clearness of consciousness which is the thing that best moves the whole man." "To doubt this is impossible; everyone knows it. But a need to deceive oneself arises. People are not as anxious that consciousness should work correctly as they are that it should seem to them that what they are doing is right, and they deliberately make use of substances that disturb the proper working of their consciousness." "People drink and smoke, not casually, not from dullness, not to cheer themselves up, not because it is pleasant, but in order to drown the voice of conscience in themselves." "Thanks to self-stupefaction...life does not accord with conscience, so conscience is made to bend to life." "A man feels that to decide the questions confronting him needs labor�often painful labor�and he wishes to evade this. If he had no means of stupefying his faculties he could not expel from his consciousness the questions that confront him, and the necessity of solving them would be forced upon him. But man finds that there exists a means to drive off these questions whenever they present themselves�and he uses it. As soon as the questions awaiting solution begin to torment him, he has recourse to these means, and avoids the disquietude evoked by the troublesome questions. Consciousness ceases to demand their solution, and the unsolved questions remain unsolved till his next period of enlightenment." "For dozens of years past, all the European peoples have been busy devising the very best ways of killing people, and teaching as many young men as possible, as soon as they reach manhood, how to murder. Everyone knows that there can be no invasion by barbarians, but that these preparations made by the different civilized and Christian nations are directed against one another; everyone knows that this is burdensome, painful, inconvenient, ruinous, immoral, impious, and irrational�but everyone continues to prepare for mutual murder. Some devise political combinations to decide who is to kill whom and with what allies, others direct those who are being taught to murder, and others again yield�against their will, against their conscience, against their reason�to these preparations for murder. Could sober people do these things? Only drunkards who never reach a state of sobriety could do them and live on in the horrible state of discord between life and conscience in which, not onIy in this but in all other respects, the people of our society are now living. Never before, I suppose, have people lived with the demands of their conscience so evidently in contradiction to their actions."

I didn't read it all, but I get the idea. I don't think this is anything other than opinion. I doubt you could get any real data supporting this. Sure there is some relationship between psychoactive drugs and attempting to escape reality, but drugs are not the only means of attaining this goal. You can delve into your work, into another person, into your ideals and escape reality equally. I for one don't agree with this article as a whole, but I do agree that current societies demands are related to some extent with the use of psychoactive drugs.

COR version?

quote:

Originally posted by eRRaTiK COR version?

"People do drugs to distract themselves from their immoral lives."

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles "People do drugs to distract themselves from their immoral lives."

Perhaps sometimes, perhaps a lot of the time, but there's still a lot of times people (men) do drugs for a purpose other than to get away from their immoral lives. If anyone believes that shit then they are "stupified" themselves.

Re: Re: Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

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Originally posted by venomX I didn't read it all, but I get the idea. I don't think this is anything other than opinion. I doubt you could get any real data supporting this. Sure there is some relationship between psychoactive drugs and attempting to escape reality, but drugs are not the only means of attaining this goal. You can delve into your work, into another person, into your ideals and escape reality equally. I for one don't agree with this article as a whole, but I do agree that current societies demands are related to some extent with the use of psychoactive drugs.

I don't think you get the remotest idea, frankly. This is not based on 'facts' obviously, and neither does Tolstoy propound his argument based on an 'attempt to escape reality,' for it has nothing to do with that. Nor is his argument limited to psychoactive drugs. Of course you do not agree with the article, you've just asserted you haven't even read it! Try reading it before setting forth ignorant statements (no offense).

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Originally posted by tranceDJ Perhaps sometimes, perhaps a lot of the time, but there's still a lot of times people (men) do drugs for a purpose other than to get away from their immoral lives. If anyone believes that shit then they are "stupified" themselves.

Indeed. And if the statement should hold any water at all, it should read something like "People do drugs to distract themselves from their moral lives," and on the whole it would still sound inane.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Because they like to make their minds or emotions work a bit differently for a while. Pretty simple.

Hmm. That is truly quite simple. Maybe you ought to get it published.

Re: Re: Re: Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Hmm. That is truly quite simple. Maybe you ought to get it published.

Why? Not all simple things are interesting or profound.

i drink because i enjoy the taste, if i'd get inebriated by alcohol, i might enjoy that as well. i started drinking for the same reason i do anything else for the first time: curiosity. not because everybody drinks.

i smoke because i enjoy the flavour of the smoke and the quasi-feeling of the smoke. not to while away the time. i started smoking for the same reason i do anything else for the first time: curiosity. not because everybody smokes.


regardless, toltoy's so-called evidence (against the inebriated's reasons) proves nothing:

• wasting nature's wealth --which practice avoids "wasting" nature's wealth?
  
• spending that which costs great labour to produce --ok, so instead of spending it, let's hoard it; let's allow that great labour to go to waste; in other words, see above.
  
• doing that which brings evident harm to oneself and to others --again, what doesn't bring evident harm to oneself and others? every pattern of behaviour can be shown to be destructive in one form or another.
  
• Moreover, the use of these evidently harmful things produces terrible evils known and admitted by everyone, and destroys more people than all the wars and contagious diseases added together. And people know this, so that they cannot really use these things 'to while away time,' 'to cheer themselves up,' or because 'everybody does it.' --nonsensical argument, one does not lead to the other.
  
• Evidently if a man who has to choose between the want and sufferings of a family he loves on the one hand, and abstinence from stupefying things on the other, chooses the former � he must be induced thereto by something more potent than the consideration that everybody does it, or that it is pleasant. Evidently it is done not 'to while away time,' nor merely 'to cheer himself up.' He is actuated by some more powerful cause. --there is no more powerful cause than that which is subjectively "pleasant".

Re: Re: Re: Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred I don't think you get the remotest idea, frankly. This is not based on 'facts' obviously, and neither does Tolstoy propound his argument based on an 'attempt to escape reality,' for it has nothing to do with that. Nor is his argument limited to psychoactive drugs. Of course you do not agree with the article, you've just asserted you haven't even read it! Try reading it before setting forth ignorant statements (no offense).

No offense taken. I skimmed it over because just from the first few lines I could tell it's just abstract pondering with no real basis. He can contend that people use psychoactive drugs (any drug that produces psychological changes) or any other form of distraction to avoid their moral responsibilities with almost any argument and it still wont amount to much. I said escape reality in my post as related to avoiding moral life which would constitute what I meant by reality. There's so much information on addiction (not just to drugs) out there, that I can't motivate myself to read something that doesn't rely on any information other than that of a particular person (i.e. his opinion). In any case, just wanted to say that if anyone is truly interested in sound theories of addiction there time is better spent reading other things.

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Originally posted by Psy-T basically what i'm saying is that this is a piece of oversimplified moralistic nonsense.

Right. There is so much hokum and claptrap in your words, Psy-T, that I feel hardpressed to enumerate them. While at times your posts are at least specious, what you write here is unequivocal, unfounded horseshit that galls me to the core, if for no other reason than because you cannot see for yourself how ignorant and provincial your points of view are.

If you get inebriated by alcohol, you might enjoy it as well? But of fuckin' course you will! Who says you wouldn't?? You started doing things for the first time because of curiosity? Very well, I suppose the 2nd, 3rd, and 59th time was due to an irrepressible curiosity as well?!

"which practice avoids "wasting" nature's wealth?" I won't bother to even answer the question.

"again, what doesn't bring evident harm to oneself and others? every pattern of behaviour can be shown to be destructive in one form or another." (Insert random answer here.)

I won't even bother with the other ones. While I may not necessarily agree with everything Tolstoy propounds, far be it from me to make such dumbfounded, presumptuous retorts!

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred hokum...claptrap...enumerate...at least specious [?]...galls me to the cor...far be it from me to make such dumbfounded, presumptuous retorts!

I see somebody has ingested a bit too much wordy literature.

One ought to avoid such intoxicants.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

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Originally posted by venomX In any case, just wanted to say that if anyone is truly interested in sound theories of addiction there time is better spent reading other things.

Apparently you still fail to comprehend his argument. His is not about addiction nor are they necessarily 'sound theories,' they are subjective and written based on a sophisticated, worldly-wise life, spanning many decades. Perhaps once you are half of the age during which Tolstoy had written this, you may change some of your views. Then again, maybe not.

Oh, and I guess you ought to be the to judge how other people's time should be spent and advise them on what they shouldn't read. Give me a fucking break and stop being so opinionated.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I see somebody has ingested a bit too much wordy literature. One ought to avoid such intoxicants.

Lame. Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go.

Tolstoy was all about telling people what to do, at least in the righteousness-crusade stage that was the end of his life.

I think I'll listen to you. You must be on to something.

Cool! I have a disciple.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred Right. There is so much hokum and claptrap in your words, Psy-T, that I feel hardpressed to enumerate them. While at times your posts are at least specious, what you write here is unequivocal, unfounded horseshit that galls me to the core, if for no other reason than because you cannot see for yourself how ignorant and provincial your points of view are.

by all means then, argue my points, show the hokum of my words.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred If you get inebriated by alcohol, you might enjoy it as well? But of fuckin' course you will! Who says you wouldn't?? You started doing things for the first time because of curiosity? Very well, I suppose the 2nd, 3rd, and 59th time was due to an irrepressible curiosity as well?!

tolstoy asks "why do you do ____, and why did you start doing it?", i answer in the appropriate form (...i smoke because 1, 2 & 3. i started smoking because 4 & 5...). to assault my format is indignant, especially when the attacker is defending the exactly corresponding format at the same time, on the other hand, to assault my words without realizing the above is just sad.

beyond this, the actual point of starting my post with those words was to show how his generalizations don't hold up in the real world without a few 'healthy' stretches of the literal meaning.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred "which practice avoids "wasting" nature's wealth?" I won't bother to even answer the question.

why?

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred "again, what doesn't bring evident harm to oneself and others? every pattern of behaviour can be shown to be destructive in one form or another." (Insert random answer here.)

[insert random indignant grunt here.]

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred I won't even bother with the other ones. While I may not necessarily agree with everything Tolstoy propounds, far be it from me to make such dumbfounded, presumptuous retorts!

you haven't actually bothered with any of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T by all means then, argue my points, show the hokum of my words.

I did briefly, I'll continue to do so.

quote:

tolstoy asks "why do you do ____, and why did you start doing it?", i answer in the appropriate form (...i smoke because 1, 2 & 3. i started smoking because 4 & 5...). to assault my format is indignant, especially when the attacker is defending the exactly corresponding format at the same time, on the other hand, to assault my words without realizing the above is just sad.

Tolstoy has already answered for you, nor does he ask you, for it is a rhetorical question. You answer is tantamount to his, namely: �Oh, I like it...it cheers me up.�

Here's another answer of his: 'To while away time, to cheer oneself up; everybody does it.' But it might be excusable to twiddle one's thumbs, to whistle, to hum tunes, to play a fife or to do something of that sort 'to while away the time,' 'to cheer oneself up,' or 'because everybody does it' � that is to say, it might be excusable to do something which does not involve wasting Nature's wealth, or spending what has cost great labor to produce, or doing what brings evident harm to oneself and to others."

Moreover, your answer was limited to the fact that you find it pleasant, and due to your curiosity. Nobody asks why you did it the first time, but why you do it in general.

quote:

beyond this, the actual point of starting my post with those words was to show how his generalizations don't hold up in the real world without a few 'healthy' stretches of the literal meaning.

Maybe you should think twice and read the article again. Or, spare yourself the trouble, for I'll give just one example: "In war, soldiers are usually intoxicated before a hand-to-hand fight. All the French soldiers in the assaults on Sevastopol were drunk.

When a fortified place has been captured but the soldiers do not sack it and slay the defenseless old men and children, orders are often given to make them drunk and then they do what is expected of them." I suppose you'll attribute that to your so-called 'healthy stretch of the literal meaning?'

quote:

you haven't actually bothered with any of them.

Well, if I must.

"which practice avoids "wasting" nature's wealth?" Sitting on the bank of a river, contemplating the sky.

"again, what doesn't bring evident harm to oneself and others? every pattern of behaviour can be shown to be destructive in one form or another." Sitting on the bank of a river, contemplating the sky. I suppose you'll find some way in which this is inimical not only to one's self, but to others as well.

If you insist on continuing, I don't mind, but I'm going to visit my mom now and will be online again in an hour or two.

What is "Nature's wealth?"

Disturbed is a horrible horrible band

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred Tolstoy has already answered for you, nor does he ask you, for it is a rhetorical question. You answer is tantamount to his, namely: �Oh, I like it...it cheers me up.�

tostoy's answer is unsatisfactory, and if it is in truth a rhetorical question (i granted him the benefit of the doubt), it is a fallacious one.

there's a world of difference between theese two answers:

1. why do you listen to music? because i like it, and
   
2. why do you listen to music? because i like the soundsd it uses, the things those sounds remind me of; the structures utilized, the similiarity between the structures in music and the ones seen and heard in nature; the novelty of it...

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred If you insist on continuing, I don't mind, but I'm going to visit my mom now and will be online again in an hour or two.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles What is "Nature's wealth?"

everything positive natures offers...
what is positive?
that which is beneficial...
what's beneficial?
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shemales

Dear Psy-T

Arbiter is no where to be found, I hope you can find a place in your heart to accept me as your proxy mentor in this time of dire need!


While I do not believe that AlphaStarred has the highest ground (i.e. the perspective which sees the greater truth amongst those being proffered here), in order to begin illuminating that fact I think you must start by acknowledging that there is a correlation between alcohol consumption and bad behaviour amongst some members of the general public.

For that matter, what is "Nature?"

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