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Progress in Iraq

Damn, so THIS is what progress in Iraq looks like. This whole time the majority American public, the Dems., the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the rest of the world, the Iraq Study Group, and anyone who's have conscious thought things were going in the wrong direction in Iraq.

But thanks to both our fearless leader and the Iraqi government, they are making assurances to the contrary. How, you ask?

By simply covering up the icky stuff:

quote:

Iraq to bar press from blast scenes Iraq's interior ministry has decided to bar news photographers and camera operators from the scenes of bomb attacks, operations director Brigadier General Abdel Karim Khalaf said on Sunday (local time). His announcement was the latest in a series of attempts to curtail press coverage of the ongoing conflict, which has already attracted criticism from international human rights bodies. "There are many reasons for this prohibition," he said. "We do not want evidence to be disturbed before the arrival of detectives, the ministry must respect human rights and does not want to expose victims and does not want to give terrorists information that they achieved their goals. "This decision does not imply a curtailment of press freedom, it is a measure followed all over the world." International and local media coverage of Iraq's deadly sectarian conflict generates dozens of images and reports of carnage every day, as insurgent bomb attacks continue. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitem...05/s1921675.htm

Now you see, we can't claim death, destruction, and chaos anymore because, well,

HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

Ain't that great? Because if ya can't see it you antiAmerican traitors, it ain't happenin'! Ya think it's going on? Prove it! You can't? Well then it ain't happenin' then, is it? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

(*snort*, *snort*, *snort*)

Oh goodness. My side hurts!

But wait, it doesn't stop there! Because our new purple-fingered, fully democracized death-squad Iraqi government has made sure to cover all the bases, folks! Don't even THINK for a second that they've stopped there. Because even if we can't photograph and report on the spot for empirical evidence the death and destruction that occurred, well there's still a way to count the dead, because the Iraqi government has released the figures of the deceased this whole time........

....until now:

quote:

Iraq refuses to provide civilian casualty figures to U.N. Numbers from government employees indicate that 5,509 died in Baghdad in the first three months of 2007. BAGHDAD � The Iraqi government has refused to provide the United Nations with civilian casualty figures for its latest report on the hardships facing Iraqis, the U.N. said Wednesday, but numbers from various ministries indicate that more than 5,500 people died in the Baghdad area alone in the first three months of this year. The numbers, provided to The Times by employees in government ministries, could not be independently verified but were higher than those in an independent nationwide civilian death count based on news accounts. Numbers provided by employees of ministries also appear to indicate an increase in Baghdad civilian deaths in recent weeks after an ebb when a new security plan was launched in February. At a news conference to unveil the United Nations' report, spokesman Said Arikat said no "official" reason had been given by the government for not issuing casualty figures. But Ivana Vuco, a U.N. human rights officer, said government officials had made it clear during discussions that they believed releasing high casualty numbers would make it harder for the government to quell unrest. "We were told they were concerned that people would misconstrue the figures to portray the situation very negatively, and that would further undermine their efforts to establish some kind of stability and security in the country," Vuco said, adding, "These are, in a way � legitimate reasons. "However, we are trying to stress our point of view, which is that transparency is the key to establishing security." http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...-home-headlines

Now WAIT, stop right there. I know what you're thinkin'. I do. You're thinkin' Bush ain't gonna sit there and let the Iraqi government have all the fun on its own, right?

Well you're damn darn tootin' right he ain't! Go grab yurself another Texas Shiner Bock coldie for yurself for guessin' that right, bub!:

quote:

U.S. officials exclude car bombs in touting drop in Iraq violence By Nancy A. Youssef McClatchy Newspapers WASHINGTON - U.S. officials who say there has been a dramatic drop in sectarian violence in Iraq since President Bush began sending more American troops into Baghdad aren't counting one of the main killers of Iraqi civilians. Car bombs and other explosive devices have killed thousands of Iraqis in the past three years, but the administration doesn't include them in the casualty counts it has been citing as evidence that the surge of additional U.S. forces is beginning to defuse tensions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims. President Bush explained why in a television interview on Tuesday. "If the standard of success is no car bombings or suicide bombings, we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory," he told TV interviewer Charlie Rose. Others, however, say that not counting bombing victims skews the evidence of how well the Baghdad security plan is protecting the civilian population - one of the surge's main goals. "Since the administration keeps saying that failure is not an option, they are redefining success in a way that suits them," said James Denselow, an Iraq specialist at London-based Chatham House, a foreign policy think tank. Bush administration officials have pointed to a dramatic decline in one category of deaths - the bodies dumped daily in Baghdad streets, which officials call sectarian murders - as evidence that the security plan is working. Bush said this week that that number had declined by 50 percent, a number confirmed by statistics compiled by McClatchy Newspapers. But the number of people killed in explosive attacks is rising, the same statistics show - up from 323 in March, the first full month of the security plan, to 365 through April 24. Overall, statistics indicate that the number of violent deaths has declined significantly since December, when 1,391 people died in Baghdad, either executed and found dead on the street or killed by bomb blasts. That number was 796 in March and 691 through April 24. Nearly all of that decline, however, can be attributed to a drop in executions, most of which were blamed on Shiite Muslim militias aligned with the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. Much of the decline occurred before the security plan began on Feb. 15, and since then radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has ordered his Mahdi Army militia to stand down. According to the statistics, which McClatchy reporters in Baghdad compile daily from Iraqi police reports, 1,030 bodies were found in December. In January, that number declined 32 percent, to 699. It declined to 596 February and again to 473 in March. Deaths from car bombings and improvised explosive devices, however, increased from 361 in December to a peak of 520 in February before dropping to 323 in March. In that same period, the number of bombings has increased, as well. In December, there were 65 explosive attacks. That number was unchanged in January, but it rose to 72 in February, 74 in March and 81 through April 24. http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwas.../printstory.jsp

Now I don't know about you, but all these traitorous bastards mentioned above who opposed this war need to think REAL HARD about their own personal sins, and they need to repent of their disbelief in our fearless neocon leaders as well as the lovely progress that's TRULY occurring in Iraq right now. You should NEVER doubt our fearless leader again. They know what they're doin', dammit.

And if they don't know what they're doin', well hell, they'll just fake it! But you won't know the difference 'cause they won't be reportin' the icky stuff anymore. So grab your flag, wrap yourself up real tight, and give high praise to Gawd and His Right Hand Man, our dear Dubya.

Is that all you do all day... Promote propaganda to discredit the effort of our troops and your commander and chief.

To all my TA members "IF" a Dem is elected with the same mentality of this MisterOpus, I got to tell you... WE ARE FUCKED!

LOL... And my Dad thinks that I'm too passionate about politics...

He hasn't seen MisterOpus

But I have to say I agree with everything he posts, it's very good to have him with us

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover Is that all you do all day... Promote propaganda to discredit the effort of our troops

Not at all. Just wishing they weren't there in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover and your commander and chief.

You make him sound like the bastion of world peace.

Dubya is an idiot.

/thread

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover Is that all you do all day... Promote propaganda to discredit the effort of our troops and your commander and chief. To all my TA members "IF" a Dem is elected with the same mentality of this MisterOpus, I got to tell you... WE ARE FUCKED!

Because you're relatively new here, I'll let your continual ad hominems slide for now.

But I will say that if you continue attacking with asinine ad hominem fallacies while failing to make any arguments to debate, rest assured a mod will more than likely be notified.

IOW, if you're interested in a flame war, kindly take your shit elsewhere. This is a political debate forum. Either engage with intellectual honesty in debate or kindly go about your way.

Added in Edit: You might want to review our Mod's 7 simple rules thread:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...7&forumid=66&s=

Take notice of rule #2, if you will.

quote:

Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_ Not at all. Just wishing they weren't there in the first place. You make him sound like the bastion of world peace. Dubya is an idiot. /thread

lol...

I don't know why people even reply to this latinwhatever fellow... he can barely formulate comprehensive ideas.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby lol... I don't know why people even reply to this latinwhatever fellow... he can barely formulate comprehensive ideas.

no i just dont put enough effort when im dealing with stupid shit. come on do you think that I have time to read an essay about how americans are sick and tired about this war, another essay on what the polls show, another essay on how ex military officials feel

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover no i just dont put enough effort when im dealing with stupid shit. come on do you think that I have time to read an essay about how americans are sick and tired about this war, another essay on what the polls show, another essay on how ex military officials feel

If you are not going to put forth the effort to read supported assertions that counter your unsupported points, why are you even bothering to be in the political debate forum?

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 If you are not going to put forth the effort to read supported assertions that counter your unsupported points, why are you even bothering to be in the political debate forum?

To read the opinions and analysis of other members and hoping to engage in a worth while debate with intelligent people but that hasnt happened because some people all they do is go to CNN.com or w.e have you and quote some shit up from someone and just use that as evidence. I was more hoping to meet an intellectual that can have common sense but more importantly ENTERTAIN his own analysis of world events etc..

Its like I say... Why would I bother to debate with people that cant do that, it makes me feel dumber. I am still awaiting to meet that member here but it seems is not going to happen....

If it does happen then youll see a 100% guaranteed a hell of a debate

Bush is right. the advertized standard can't be no suicide bombs. doesn't mean you don't do everything humanly possible to minimize or marginalize them as savage, cowardly and easy for jihadists to do. it's all they have really now and god is it effective...to a point.

thats what is going on here. thats what the Iraqi government is doing as well. you have to do evrything possible to marginalize this crap evn if it means cencoring yourself. unfortunately the rabidness of the anti-war left will have a field day using it against you. sux ass but you keep fighting.

Latinlover is right. that Yousseff article is straight-up propaganda.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Bush is right. the advertized standard can't be no suicide bombs. doesn't mean you don't do everything humanly possible to minimize or marginalize them as savage, cowardly and easy for jihadists to do. it's all they have really now and god is it effective...to a point. thats what is going on here. thats what the Iraqi government is doing as well. you have to do evrything possible to marginalize this crap evn if it means cencoring yourself. unfortunately the rabidness of the anti-war left will have a field day using it against you. sux ass but you keep fighting. Latinlover is right. that Yousseff article is straight-up propaganda.

It's funny how everything that seemingly disagrees with Bush is somehow lumped into the "rabid-left", as you call it.

Strange how so much of the majority of the world and our own country has such a "rabid-left" bend to it.

And I just knew you'd come to the rescue of this censorship. Thank goodness for Bush supporters like you who know and love that darn librul media - ya know, the one who likes to report the icky reality that seemingly doesn't quite work in this Administration's favor.......

And I'm sorry, you were comparing in another thread one of our country's political party to extremists who enjoy a great deal of censorship. Interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover To read the opinions and analysis of other members and hoping to engage in a worth while debate with intelligent people but that hasnt happened because some people all they do is go to CNN.com or w.e have you and quote some shit up from someone and just use that as evidence.

Hmmm, so what politicians, analysts, and anyone else being quoted in the media is somehow detrimental to my argument how again?

quote:

I was more hoping to meet an intellectual that can have common sense but more importantly ENTERTAIN his own analysis of world events etc..

I like how you try to put on the grown-up jeans, and then double-loop that big belt around so they fit better. It is pretty cute.

quote:

Its like I say... Why would I bother to debate with people that cant do that, it makes me feel dumber.

I don't think you need my help or anyone else's help here for that one champ. You do just fine appearing quite dumb all on your own.

quote:

I am still awaiting to meet that member here but it seems is not going to happen....

I just can't tell you how incredibly disappointed I am at your continual dodging and refusal to engage or counter any of the points I've made directly towards you so far.

I'll shalln't sleep tonight.......

quote:

If it does happen then youll see a 100% guaranteed a hell of a debate

Quick question for ya, champ:

quote:

Given the fact that hardly any predictions made by this Administration and its supporters have come to fruition about this war in Iraq, why the fuck do you think you have an ounce of credibility to make any predictions about the situation in the future? Given your support to the group that's been wrong on almost all accounts with this war, what on earth should compel anyone to start believing your predictions now? And lastly, again I wonder, do you think it's okay for Bush to call for a timetable of withdrawal against Clinton back in 1999?

Can you try to act like a grown-up and answer that one little question for us all?

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 It's funny how everything that seemingly disagrees with Bush is somehow lumped into the "rabid-left", as you call it. Strange how so much of the majority of the world and our own country has such a "rabid-left" bend to it. And I just knew you'd come to the rescue of this censorship. Thank goodness for Bush supporters like you who know and love that darn librul media - ya know, the one who likes to report the icky reality that seemingly doesn't quite work in this Administration's favor....... And I'm sorry, you were comparing in another thread one of our country's political party to extremists who enjoy a great deal of censorship. Interesting.

you are banging pots and pans. thats all.

don't flatter your "rabid" self.

i care very little about the anti-war left only to point out their tantrums.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you are banging pots and pans. thats all. don't flatter your "rabid" self. i care very little about the anti-war left only to point out their tantrums.

Yes, I can see how banning the press from doing their jobs at explosions, Iraq refusing to release death tolls for the first time, and this Administration deliberately leaving out car bombs and other explosives out of their violence gage somehow looks like a tantrum from the "rabid-left" to a "rabid" Bush-supporter like yourself.

Sorry, what were you saying about propaganda again? Could you try and be serious for one moment and define how holding the press out, refusing to give out death numbers for the first time in this war, and the Administration refusing to include car bombs and other explosive devices in their measure of violence, is NOT propaganda?

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Yes, I can see how banning the press from doing their jobs at explosions, Iraq refusing to release death tolls for the first time, and this Administration deliberately leaving out car bombs and other explosives out of their violence gage somehow looks like a tantrum from the "rabid-left" to a "rabid" Bush-supporter like yourself. Sorry, what were you saying about propaganda again? Could you try and be serious for one moment and define how holding the press out, refusing to give out death numbers for the first time in this war, and the Administration refusing to include car bombs and other explosive devices in their measure of violence, is NOT propaganda?

i'm not saying it isn't propaganda you idiot, and i have yet to see any American reporter coming out saying he's being silenced, but one has it's benefits in solving the greater problem and the other doesn't. plain and simple.

i expect you to use it against our effort. i expect you to see it through an anti-war myopia, but we don't care what you think. we have a responsibility to do the best of our abilities regardless of what people who don't even want to uphold the greater good back here in the states think.

if i can predict anthing about this war the one thing i can be assured of is your relentless undermining of it, banging pots and pans

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i'm not saying it isn't propaganda you idiot, and i have yet to see any American reporter coming out saying he's being silenced, but one has it's benefits in solving the greater problem and the other doesn't. plain and simple. i expect you to use it against our effort. i expect you to see it through an anti-war myopia, but we don't care what you think. we have a responsibility to do the best of our abilities regardless of what people who don't even want to uphold the greater good back here in the states think. if i can predict anthing about this war the one thing i can be assured of is your relentless undermining of it, banging pots and pans

Yes this concerted effort by the left to bang "pots and pans" is seriously undermining and underreporting all the superb accomplishments and positive achievements that are being done in Iraq! Like after 4 years we have ALL kinds of statistics that demonstrate how we're SUCCEEDING in a clusterfuck that even administratrion officials are too afraid to defend! The irony of this "myopia" is rich indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i'm not saying it isn't propaganda you idiot, and i have yet to see any American reporter coming out saying he's being silenced, but one has it's benefits in solving the greater problem and the other doesn't. plain and simple.

Ahh, I see. So you acknowledge this as propaganda, uhh, "good" propaganda I guess, since it has a benefit of "solving the greater problem". So how is propaganda of any sort solving a greater problem, especially in lieu of keeping the reality of events on the ground from the public eye, as well as lying about violence and withholding death numbers?

Please explain in detail how that is "solving the greater problem," especially since things have gone so swimmingly for our Administration over the past 4 years in Iraq.

quote:

i expect you to use it against our effort. i expect you to see it through an anti-war myopia, but we don't care what you think. we have a responsibility to do the best of our abilities regardless of what people who don't even want to uphold the greater good back here in the states think. if i can predict anthing about this war the one thing i can be assured of is your relentless undermining of it, banging pots and pans

Well I guess I just got tired of clapping louder for one failed neocon strategy and prediction after another over there. I think it's only fair to ask you the same question that I keep asking (and have not received a response) my dear friend Latin:

quote:

Given the fact that hardly any predictions made by this Administration and its supporters have come to fruition about this war in Iraq, why the fuck do you think you have an ounce of credibility to make any predictions about the situation in the future? Given your support to the group that's been wrong on almost all accounts with this war, what on earth should compel anyone to start believing your predictions now?

Do try and keep your own personal snipes in perspective. As Occ mentioned, your continual pointing of fingers at the "rabid-left" (i.e. majority of Americans and most of the world) is a pitiful excuse for the obvious failures of this Administration's policies in Iraq.

And one last question for you, you stated:

quote:

have a responsibility to do the best of our abilities regardless of what people who don't even want to uphold the greater good

What exactly is the "greater good" that you're fighting here? This is running dangerously close to the "win" and "success" rhetoric this Administration utilizes with no definition of those words that can be quantitatively measured. So how do you define "to do the best of our abilities" in order to "uphold the greater good?" What is the "greater good" to you? How will it be obtained? You do realize what kind of government we are fighting for there, right? You do understand that the likelihood of a civil war stopping for your neocon utopian "democracy thru force" is next to nill, and has never had a chance in hell, right?

How do you or this Administration plan on creating such a utopian heaven there? What is "win"? What is "victory" to you and Cheney? Start defining your rhetoric along with this Administration's so we can understand just what the hell our obtainable goals are there for once.

Damn MisterOpus, you bitch so much. Shit man dont get to emotional, its ok you know

Let me continue educating you for a bit... This I havent said, but IMO we didnt go to Iraq for the WMD. IMO this is a strategic war for the US to have a grip in the ME because before the 9/11 basically we had no kind of influence in the region. We didnt go there for the fucking oil or w.e have you... I mean its so funny that people all over the world says we are there for the oil. But who where the ones bitching and wanting to have a piece of Iraqi oil when the US successfully invaded Iraq? :cough: Russia and France

Back to my point... IMO this is a good strategy for the US, all we are facing is some minor complications that can be solved. It saddens me that our politicians are the ones dividing us. Why dont we have a national debate and let Americans know what a withdrawal mean for us? Because you know that Americans will change their mind and disregard that notion ofwithdrawal.

Misteropus stop bitching already because Im sick and tired of it. Stop trying to write the history of Iraq and how we have failed cause you dont know shit about. Just keep echoing w.e your politicians tell you.

And you are so childish in calling neocons to all those people that criticize the Dems. As I said when you show intelligence ill debate you more seriously. Right now you are not even worthy the time to google my shit up and present the "evidence" you want. Im getting to the point that i feel tired in responding to you so im going to leave this post as it is now cause i dont want to keep typing anymore to stupid shit

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover Damn MisterOpus, you bitch so much. Shit man dont get to emotional, its ok you know

Uhh, ok. Perhaps you can point out in this thread where you see emotional outbreaks on my part?

quote:

Let me continue educating you for a bit...

Is that what you call it?

quote:

This I havent said, but IMO we didnt go to Iraq for the WMD. IMO this is a strategic war for the US to have a grip in the ME because before the 9/11 basically we had no kind of influence in the region.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that Captain Obvious. But that essentially entails a deliberate obfuscation by this Administration in an attempt to sell their plans of invasion to the rest of the public based primarily on two premises:

1. WMDs
2. al Qaeda connections

These were the primary rationales for invasion. There's no need for any historical revisionism here. This is what we were sold on. This is what I personally was sold on and originally supported. Of course I know now and have known for years that they had ulterior motives like the ones you just mentioned, but like the rest of the country, I really don't appreciate being told false or unsupported rationales for an invasion, as well as a complete clusterfuck debacle that we're in now.

Do you?

quote:

We didnt go there for the fucking oil or w.e have you... I mean its so funny that people all over the world says we are there for the oil. But who where the ones bitching and wanting to have a piece of Iraqi oil when the US successfully invaded Iraq? :cough: Russia and France

When have I ever brought this up as a rationale? Could you please try to focus a bit better on the topic and points of discussion at hand?

quote:

Back to my point...

I think it's more than fair to say you never had one, or at least you never explained one very well so far.

quote:

IMO this is a good strategy for the US, all we are facing is some minor complications that can be solved.

So this current situation of being bogged down in a civil war, fighting for a fundamentalist regime in leagues with Iran, with no obtainable goals or measurable benchmarks, no quantifiable definitions of "success" or "victory", while 3400 of our troops are dead, over 26,000 wounded, and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis are just a "minor" complication to you that can be solved?

Okay, how? What strategery have you seen thus far leads YOU to believe this can be "solved"? And please define "solved" while you're at it, thanks.

quote:

It saddens me that our politicians are the ones dividing us. Why dont we have a national debate and let Americans know what a withdrawal mean for us? Because you know that Americans will change their mind and disregard that notion ofwithdrawal.

We HAVE these debates, my dear twit, every freakin' day. A national debate occurs every day in Congress, on the radio, in the backyard with your neighbor, in my clinical rotations in Physical Therapy with veterans that have chosen private practice instead of military care, you name it. Where the hell have you been?

Did it ever occur to you that Americans, the broad majority of them have thoroughly considered this already, and decided based on those decisions? Stop blaming your political ghosts and the Democrats for all things going wrong with this war.

Is it really that difficult to point the finger at the failed policies in the first place, rather than bitching and moaning about everyone else?

quote:

Misteropus stop bitching already because Im sick and tired of it.

You poor, wretched soul. You could just enlist and join the cause you so deeply support rather than argue with no substance with me on the Internets, if you really wanted to.

Or are you even of age yet?

quote:

Stop trying to write the history of Iraq and how we have failed cause you dont know shit about. Just keep echoing w.e your politicians tell you.

I'm really having a difficult time trying to follow your grammar. What's "w.e?" What's "ME?"

Regardless, who's writing history here? Are you having difficulty accepting the fact that your little utopian war hasn't gone as swimmingly as you hoped it to be?

Well perhaps you should stop whining like a little recalcitrant child and start demonstrating otherwise with a coherent argument. How has Iraq gone in your favor so far?

quote:

And you are so childish in calling neocons to all those people that criticize the Dems.

When it comes to this Iraq War, the broad majority of those critical
of the Dems (and the majority Americans, and the majority of the world, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Iraq Study Group) tend to fall in line with the neocon philosophy. That's pretty simple.

quote:

As I said when you show intelligence ill debate you more seriously.

Ahh, so you were just showing me your jocular side of debating skills up to this point? Well hot dog! I can't wait to see your serious side. I quiver with fright and anticipation.......

quote:

Right now you are not even worthy the time to google my shit up and present the "evidence" you want.

Quit wasting my time. Start supporting your arguments or troll some other forum. If you fail to support yourself here in this debate forum, you're nothing but a waste of time to me and everyone else. Kindly move on if this is the case.

quote:

Im getting to the point that i feel tired in responding to you so im going to leave this post as it is now cause i dont want to keep typing anymore to stupid shit

Then kindly leave, sir. You continue to debate with absolutely no integrity to support yourself or address the points I have made to you to which I have supported myself with evidence.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? It's real simple:

1. You make an argument
2. You support that argument with evidence to back it up
3. I counter your argument
4. I support my arguments with evidence to back me up.

What the fuck is so difficult with step #2 for you? It's really incomprehensible that you continually dodge and weave from that very simple point. You have not debated with any integrity and intellectual honesty of any sort. Quit wasting my fucking time here.

So again I'll ask you the question that you have continually dodged up to this point:

quote:

Given the fact that hardly any predictions made by this Administration and its supporters have come to fruition about this war in Iraq, why the fuck do you think you have an ounce of credibility to make any predictions about the situation in the future? Given your support to the group that's been wrong on almost all accounts with this war, what on earth should compel anyone to start believing your predictions now? And lastly, again I wonder, do you think it's okay for Bush to call for a timetable of withdrawal against Clinton back in 1999?

Quit wasting my time, debate with intellectual honesty and answer the fucking question posed DIRECTLY to you, sir.

i think its about time lira said goodbye to latin lover.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i think its about time lira said goodbye to latin lover.

Wait, he doesn't seem to be a great debater or anything, but has he been abusive?

Not really, Opus usually pounds him into mush.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Wait, he doesn't seem to be a great debater or anything, but has he been abusive?

Agreed. If anything I hope he would begin to understand how to support his argument a bit better when he creates one. It might be futile, but I'll hope nonetheless.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Wait, he doesn't seem to be a great debater or anything, but has he been abusive?

Who says I have debated MisterOpus?

As I mentioned, Ill debate MisterOpus when he shows more intelligence in the topics he wants to debate. But at no instance I have tried to DEBATE him. All I have done is stated my opinions/analysis. As I mentioned in other posts engaging in a debate with the kind of this "neocon" mentality he carries is going backwards instead of going forward.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Yes, I can see how banning the press from doing their jobs at explosions, Iraq refusing to release death tolls for the first time, and this Administration deliberately leaving out car bombs and other explosives out of their violence gage somehow looks like a tantrum from the "rabid-left" to a "rabid" Bush-supporter like yourself. Sorry, what were you saying about propaganda again? Could you try and be serious for one moment and define how holding the press out, refusing to give out death numbers for the first time in this war, and the Administration refusing to include car bombs and other explosive devices in their measure of violence, is NOT propaganda?

Its fairly simple. The people in Iraq that are murdering our troops and Iraqi civilians are terrorists. They are not the majority of the Iraqi people. They are not an army. They are not fighting a war. They cannot defeat the coalition forces in any kind of conventional battle. Their tactics are limited to roadside bombs to take out a few troops here and there or terrorist attacks against Iraqi civiilans. Their goal: get US forces out of Iraq so they can have free reign over the country and kill and murder whoever they want.

But how do you do that when all you are is a bunch of half-assed terrorists? There is no way you are ever going to defeat the US Army by killing a few soldiers here and there. But they do have an ace in the hole, the most powerful weapon ever used against the US Army. What is that weapon? The left wing liberal media in the US. The fucking terrorists in Iraq are trying to rip a page right out of Ho Chi Minh's book, where the only way to beat the US Army is to use the liberal media back at home to erode public support for a war and force a pull out.

I'm not saying I agree with the reasons we went to Iraq, but the bottom line is we are there now and we need to allow the military to finish the job or we are going to have to end up going back there again in the future.

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