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NEWS: Condos and clubs clash (Toronto Star)

here's hoping that we can someday abolish last-call and be like 90% of the rest of the world..

btw. the Homeless shelter located on the corner of the former Fez Batik was also approved last Friday for those interested..

here was the discussion thread about it on TA:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...light=fez+batik

quote:

Clubgoers wait outside Metro on Richmond St. in the Entertainment District. The mixed-use zone has residential and commercial areas Condos and clubs clash With more condos and plans for a shelter, the Entertainment District is getting crowded May 28, 2007 Raju Mudhar Entertainment Reporter Three young men at the corner of Richmond and John Sts. hang off each other and loudly accost passersby. "Hey buddy, you know where Grace O'Malley's is?" This is typical at 11 p.m. on a Friday in the Entertainment District. Young people from all over Greater Toronto regularly descend on this area of bars, clubs and restaurants, which stretches from Queen St. W. to Front St. W., and from Simcoe St. west almost to Bathurst St. On every corner, promoters hand out flyers outside bars or offer free admission to entice clubbers. At 11 p.m., the options are plentiful. But after 2 a.m., when people pour out of the clubs, there exists a dangerous mix of drunkenness with nowhere to go. That's when alcohol-fuelled violence, destruction to property and what the area's city councillor calls "hooliganism" takes over. There have been two non-fatal stabbings in the past month, but police, who number between 30 to 80 officers every weekend, don't want to publicize the number of incidents. Complaints, however, have risen as more condo dwellers move in, making clubland as much a place to live as play. In fact, it is going to become a home to the homeless with city council's approval last Friday of turning the former Fez Batik club on Peter St. into a shelter. The issue, which was initially raised as a proposal last March, actually united warring residents and club owners. Both sides were careful to avoid a not-in-my-backyard mentality and focused their concerns on the safety of the homeless, arguing that placing them in a neighbourhood rife with noise and temptation only added another tension to an already challenged area. However, the issue further politicized the stakeholders, and following some tough talk from rookie councillor Adam Vaughan (Ward 20, Trinity-Spadina) � who suggested venues get permits for lineups � some club owners believe this is the start of a "war on clubs" and an effort to force them out. Amid all this, one fact is often lost: in the 1980s, this area was referred to as a dead zone and in less than 20 years it has been completely revitalized. In a way, development has worked too well, creating a day and night neighbourhood that is the equivalent of a Jekyll/Hyde transformation. In the '80s, the area was filled with warehouses and former factories from a waning industrial boom. With the arrival of the SkyDome, the city thought it would be a good time to help spur development and, by altering the zoning, tried to create an area where entertainment facilities like restaurants and clubs were allowed to operate with little to no restrictions. Club owner Charles Khabouth was one of the first to move in, opening Stilife nightclub at Richmond and Duncan Sts. in 1987. "I liked it because it was central, in the heart of the city, but it wasn't on a major street or on a major corner. After 6 o'clock, the entire area was deserted. The first three or four months people used to park for free. After I signed the lease, I took my stepfather down there to show him and he thought I was insane. I still remember his exact words, `There is not even a cat on the street.'" Where Khabouth led, others followed, and the club boom was on. But in the mid-'90s, to help stabilize the neighbourhood, the city decided to add residential to the mixed-use zoning. "When you look at the King-Spadina area, I think that's been one of the most incredibly successful examples of urban regeneration," says Robert Glover, now in the private sector but who worked for the city for 20 years. He was city chief of urban design planning at the time and helped author the 1996 King-Spadina official plan. "And the thing about it is that you think of it as an urban neighbourhood and, through purely incremental private sector development, you've had a very large neighbourhood redevelop in about 10 years' time." While the urban design report called for more mixed-use zoning by adding residential uses, it warned that it would be necessary to monitor the relationship between residents and those attracted to entertainment facilities. But a decade ago, few could see the explosive growth that the neighbourhood is now trying to cope with. The city's condo boom has flourished in the club district. The King Spadina Residents Association aims to speak for the estimated 8,000 to 10,000 people living in the area. Started in 2004, the neighbourhood association is a model of community activism and, in a short time, has had results. Initially created because of noise complaints due to club sound systems, the group is now firmly entrenched and is at least partly responsible for bylaw changes, such as a new business designation for nightclubs in 2006 that includes more stringent security and noise requirements. It also keeps tabs on the 88 nightclubs in the area, as well as neighbourhood controversies, of which there seem to be no end. Recent ones include the installation of security cameras and legislation requiring bouncers and security personnel to undergo training. In the works are ideas to levy new taxes on clubs, and restrictions on liquor licences and the amount of clubs in operation. At the heart of these conflicts is the huge amount of people who flock to the area and the problems they cause for residents. Here then, are views from key players, and some possible solutions.

source:
http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/article/218303

quote:

Patrons of the Entertainment District's 88 clubs are at the centre of a battle between politicians and club owners. Seeking solutions May 28, 2007 04:30 AM The Entertainment District doesn't have to be a war zone. Here are some solutions that could go a long way to making peace among club owners, clubgoers and residents: The No. 1 cited problem is the sheer number of people leaving establishments after last call at 2 a.m. While it might seem like a counterintuitive idea, one suggestion is to make last call later. The city already allows 4 a.m. drinking permits for special events and with a later time, the hope is that patrons may lose steam and leave at staggered intervals, possibly easing the burden on authorities. City planners and designers say lighting and streetscaping need to be improved: better lit alleys and wider sidewalks are at the top of the list. Another problem is people urinating on residential property. While public washrooms won't completely cure this problem, it is somewhat ridiculous that there are no such facilities in the area. More cameras. There are currently eight in the Entertainment District and most club owners are glad to have them. It may smack of Big Brother, but the cameras may serve as a deterrent. Police and authorities believe liquor licence infractions do not have enough teeth and need to be beefed up. One suggestion is a three-strike system with increasing severity, or authorities should have more controls on deciding when a place will be punished. Raju Mudhar

source:
http://www.thestar.com/Article/218313

If youd like to join the facebook group "HELP SAVE TORONTO'S NIGHTLIFE" you can do so here:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2883020643

We are trying to gather together as many people as possible to use as amunition to approach the media and also start our own lobby group. So please join and invite all your friends.

It's important that we all unite to fight back against the injustice that is being served on all of us on behalf of condo owners who should have known better when they bought into the area.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 If youd like to join the facebook group "HELP SAVE TORONTO'S NIGHTLIFE" you can do so here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2883020643 We are trying to gather together as many people as possible to use as ammunition to approach the media and also start our own lobhy group. So please join and invite all your friends

LOL awesome.

edit: *joined*

Here is the reply I got from Adam Vaughan back when i wrote him during his election campaign:

quote:

Dear Jay, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Here are the answers to your questions Since you are running for ward 20 I have a few area specific questions to ask. 1) How do you feel about part of the ward being designated as the entertainment district? - It was wrong to concentrate and create this zone to begin with. Area residents are now living wiith the consequences. Two things now need to happen to normaize this neiughbourhood. Streets need to be recognize as neighbourhood streets aand Adelaide and Richmond should be be looked at as possibilities as future two way streets. Sidewalks also need to widened. Secondly there needs to be a strategy to animate the commercial space in the daytime. A mix of other businesses would help keep the nightclubs in check. 2) How can area business and residents reasonably coexist in the pursuit of their own interests? What are some ideas that you may have to help acheive this? - a BIA needs to formed ( City rules will need changing here) and then a joint business and residents assc. should work out the problems 3) How would you advocate future planning and zoning for the region? Would you add more residential units to the area? Would you increase or decrease the amount of liquor licences? The King Spadina Residents Assc hhave already put together a good plan and it now needs a bit more work, but more importantly, it also needs political support at City Hall. I'm prepared to help 4) Do you feel that large nightclubs and bars have a place in ward 20? Or anywhere in the city of Toronto for that matter? - of course they do but in moderation. We cant outlaw dancing nor should we try, but packing 70,000 clubbers into one neighbourhood is insane.. The neighbourhood needs to be respected and right now residents are being abused. Adam

So what should we do with the 70,000 people? Spread them out all over the city? I think that would cause even more problems.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH LOL awesome. edit: *joined*

+1

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH So what should we do with the 70,000 people? Spread them out all over the city? I think that would cause even more problems.

First i think 70K is a slight exaggeration.

Second I do think that other parts of the city should be allowed to have clubs again as they were in the 90s. But any club closure in the CITY DESIGNATED ENTERTAINMENT DISTRICT should be of a natural death, not forced by the city.

thanks guys for joining. Please take the time to invite your friends as numbers will speak when it comes to this group.

If there are supposedly 70K clubbers than 10K facebook members shouldnt be too much to ask for!

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 thanks guys for joining. Please take the time to invite your friends as numbers will speak when it comes to this group. If there are supposedly 70K clubbers than 10K facebook members shouldnt be too much to ask for!

Jay, don't count on numbers. It doesn't matter whether there's 100 or 10,000 members in the group if the issues aren't addressed properly and actively, and the right people aren't courted with regards to these issues.

Also, I disagree about clubs being all over the city. There's too many residential areas in the rest of Toronto that would accept a nightclub opening. I think having a dedicated entertainment district was a great idea until the city started allowing residential complexes to develop.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH So what should we do with the 70,000 people? Spread them out all over the city? I think that would cause even more problems.

Yeah.. I don't get where he's planing on moving those 70,000 people.

I don't understand why it's a bad idea to concentrate all the clubs in ONE area. I like it more that way - you can walk around from place to place, the food places are open late as a result, and the fact that there's lots of people there makes me feel more comfortable cause that part of the city feels alive even at 2am. I don't like being downtown at night on deserted streets. Sauga streets are different cause it's a suburb.

Not to mention I'd hate to drive to buttfuck nowhere to go clubbing, like you do when you go to Viva. I know where the good parking spots are there, etc etc. I know that area, and that one area is pretty much all I have to know in terms of nightlife. It's good this way.

I noticed that in London, UK a lot of clubs seem to be dispearsed across the city... does it work over there?

Also in favour of adding more public washrooms around the area.. I'm sure the cost to the city is well worth the cost of having to enforce people urinating on private/residential property.

And I'll say this again.. abolish last call! Already bad enough that subways stop running by 1:30 am.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH Jay, don't count on numbers. It doesn't matter whether there's 100 or 10,000 members in the group if the issues aren't addressed properly and actively, and the right people aren't courted with regards to these issues. Also, I disagree about clubs being all over the city. There's too many residential areas in the rest of Toronto that would accept a nightclub opening. I think having a dedicated entertainment district was a great idea until the city started allowing residential complexes to develop.

the right people have been courted. Now its just a matter of proving that the populace is in support of them.

It sounds like the biggest issue is that all clubs empty out at the same time, 2am. When you spill out 30-40k people onto Richmond / Adelaide at once the problems begin.

One idea that has been mentioned was to extend drinking hours until 4am, which they already do for special event permits. The logic behind this is that people will leave the nightclub throughout the night vs, all at once.

quote:

Originally posted by itikia It sounds like the biggest issue is that all clubs empty out at the same time, 2am. When you spill out 30-40k people onto Richmond / Adelaide at once the problems begin. One idea that has been mentioned was to extend drinking hours until 4am, which they already do for special event permits. The logic behind this is that people will leave the nightclub throughout the night vs, all at once.

and if they do that, they have to extend the public transit hours as well as an incentive for people not to drive after a solid night of drinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Fur and if they do that, they have to extend the public transit hours as well as an incentive for people not to drive after a solid night of drinking.

Not that the trains stopping at 12:30 doesnt already promote drinkers who have even longer distances to drive to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by itikia It sounds like the biggest issue is that all clubs empty out at the same time, 2am. When you spill out 30-40k people onto Richmond / Adelaide at once the problems begin. One idea that has been mentioned was to extend drinking hours until 4am, which they already do for special event permits. The logic behind this is that people will leave the nightclub throughout the night vs, all at once.

i dunno about that. if they extend drinking until 4am then i think the streets will be flooded with drunken idiots at 4:03am.

i think the best way to solve the issue is for the city to admit that they made a mistake by adding residential in the mid 90s (ya right, the city of toronto admitting that they made a mistake?) the area is called the entertainment district, not the residential & entertainment district. people that move in to the area should realize what they are getting themselves in to before they purchase the property. installing cameras in the area is a good idea as well.

why 4am... how about they get rid of last call altogether! btw, i joined the facebook group, jay. nice work.

quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Fur and if they do that, they have to extend the public transit hours as well as an incentive for people not to drive after a solid night of drinking.

They should, hence the blue night but also extending the TTC subway hours to 24/7 which was already being considered as far as I know. Also, abolishing last call does not mean an entire night of hardcore drinking for everybody at least. I think most reasonable people will drink reasonbly and get buzzed rather than drink like fish because your limit is only until 2am. Trust me, people cannot drink consecutively for days and days in a row unless they're on vacation and have no worries at all. (I rarely go downtown and drink for more than 2 days in a row...and I consider myself a hard drinker when I go out).

quote:

Originally posted by Tordan why 4am... how about they get rid of last call altogether! btw, i joined the facebook group, jay. nice work.

Because people won't be used to the idea and it will be total chaos and the authorities will revert back to the 2am rule or even EARLIER thinking that the people can't handle it. (instead of giving things a chance to smooth themselves out).

What they do is extend it to 3 or 4am, then push it back until there won't be one. Do it in phases.

not being from the big city, but do you guys actually use the subway to and from the club? i can see an issue of drunken partygoers taking the subway at 3 am and falling into the tracks

quote:

Originally posted by jchung52 not being from the big city, but do you guys actually use the subway to and from the club? i can see an issue of drunken partygoers taking the subway at 3 am and falling into the tracks

Better than them killing a whole bunch of people with their car.

quote:

Originally posted by dEsidEL And I'll say this again.. abolish last call! Already bad enough that subways stop running by 1:30 am.

London's subway only runs till 12 if I'm not mistakem. 2.30am should be the maximum. 24/7 is unrealistic. Subways should be running 30 minutes after last call. After that it's unnecessary, unless they run every 30 minutes and only like 2-3 cars.

if u guys think there will be subway service during the night like it is during the day, well it wont. if anything, trains will run every 15-20 min because anything less than that is just a waste of resources.

buses right now run every 10 min or less on yonge during the night. that is much better frequency, plus people will be able get off at stops closer to their homes.

i do agree that it should be extened until 2 or 2.15 when last call is, but anything after that is just pointless.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH London's subway only runs till 12 if I'm not mistakem. 2.30am should be the maximum. 24/7 is unrealistic. Subways should be running 30 minutes after last call. After that it's unnecessary, unless they run every 30 minutes and only like 2-3 cars.

Every 30 min or even every hour is alright. At least you know when it would come. Every few subway cars I'd be happy with.

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