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-- Since the The Surge® has failed, operation Arm the Insurgency and Baathists has begun
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Since the The Surge® has failed, operation Arm the Insurgency and Baathists has begun

This can only end well.

quote:

Rift seen in Iraq insurgency -- some groups reject al Qaeda POSTED: 1514 GMT (2314 HKT), June 8, 2007 By Karl Penhaul CNN Adjust font size: BUHRUZ, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. forces have begun arming nationalist guerrillas and former Saddam Hussein loyalists -- and coordinating tactics -- in a marriage of convenience against al Qaeda radicals in one of Iraq's most violent provinces, senior U.S. commanders tell CNN. This new alliance, a result of the deepening divisions among Iraqi insurgent factions, was on display earlier this week at a highway intersection in the town of Tahrir. There, a group of some 15 insurgents publicly chanted: "Death to al Qaeda." "The al Qaeda organization has dominated and humiliated Sunnis, Shiites and jihadis. It has forced people from their homes. They can't get enough blood. They killed many honest scholars, preachers and loyal mujahedeen," one of the group's spokesmen read from a written manifesto. It's a sharp turnaround from just two months ago when the same insurgent forces were focused on fighting U.S. troops and driving them out of Diyala province, about 40 miles north of Baghdad. U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of Multi-National Division North, believes U.S. counterinsurgency efforts in Vietnam and Latin America offer precedents for the strategy he is now pushing in this region of Iraq. (Watch how insurgents are turning against al Qaeda ) "We've seen this in previous counterinsurgency operations, using local nationals, arming them and forming them into scouts," he told CNN. "That's the primary role we want to use them in. They know the territory. They know the enemy." The changing strategy isn't just confined to Diyala, according to U.S. officials. Gen. David Petraeus, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, told CNN Thursday that tribal forces in Anbar, the restive Sunni province west of the Iraqi capital, have "decided to oppose al Qaeda and fight with the coalition forces against them." "What's taken place in Anbar is almost breathtaking," he said. "In the last several months, tribes that turned a blind eye to what al Qaeda was doing in that province are now opposing al Qaeda very vigorously. And the level of violence in Anbar has plummeted, although there clearly is still work to be done." (Full story) At the highway intersection in Tahrir, the insurgents said they had named their anti-al Qaeda alliance the United Jihad Council. They said the newly formed council was an umbrella organization of smaller insurgent units, including the 1920s Brigades, the Mujahedeen Army, Islamic Army and the Salaheddin Brigades. CNN videotaped gunmen posting lookouts on rooftops throughout Tahrir and patting down civilians -- checking for potential al Qaeda infiltrators -- as they made their way to prayers at local mosques. Locals say al Qaeda amputated fingers for smoking Nationalist insurgents say al Qaeda excesses are behind their falling-out. Several sources said al Qaeda members burned a 7-year-old child alive and murdered women and other children in the towns and villages around the provincial capital of Baquba. They did not give names or dates to back up their claims. "They [al Qaeda] ruled with tyranny. They really harmed our town, so we had to stop them, and they left, no return," said one young gunman, who claimed membership in the nationalist 1920s Brigades. Other civilian and insurgent sources in the towns of Tahrir and neighboring Buhruz said al Qaeda had imposed strict regulations, including a ban on smoking -- punishable by the amputation of a finger or hand -- and a curfew on citizens walking in the streets after 4 p.m. Some citizens said al Qaeda had even banned Friday prayers. Based on anecdotal evidence, offered by civilians in Buhruz, al Qaeda was financing its military operations by forcing citizens to pay a "war tax," as well as by kidnapping for ransom, selling smuggled fuel on the black market, and even using forced labor to harvest oranges and dates from sprawling plantations throughout the region. In Buhruz, Capt. Ben Richards is one of the U.S. field commanders cementing the U.S. military alliance with its former foes from the nationalist insurgent factions. He said the new strategy was highly pragmatic. (Watch a marriage of convenience ) "If we go in with the mindset that every one of these persons has tried to kill an American, I don't think that's true, though in many cases it may be. But if you think that, then you're setting yourself up for a mindset that is not productive for us or for the Iraqi people," Richards, commander of a troop of Stryker combat vehicles, told CNN. Richards described assistance from the former insurgent factions and what he calls other "concerned local nationals" as "militarily crucial." His key ally in the region is a man known as Abu Ali, who says he has never belonged to an insurgent force but was an officer in one of Saddam Hussein's feared military intelligence units. To date, Abu Ali says he has received 39 weapons and about 1,000 rounds of ammunition from the U.S. military. The insurgent factions he represents, however, are known to have significant arsenals of their own weapons, including light machine guns, assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades. Publicly, Abu Ali is grateful for the assistance he and his followers have received from the U.S. military. He predicts he can help clear the entire province of al Qaeda militants within six months if the U.S. Army provides more ammunition and supports insurgent operations with air cover and help from tanks and armored personnel carriers. But while the marriage of convenience may be successful for now, Abu Ali and his followers seem to have no intention of making a lasting commitment to the Americans. "After we are done with al Qaeda," Abu Ali says, "we will ask the Americans to withdraw from Iraq. ... If they do not withdraw, there will be violations and the American army will be harmed." He adds, "Especially after the help the U.S. Army has provided us, we would like them to go home as our friend, not enemy." With the alliance only beginning to bear its first successes, few U.S. commanders seem to be looking toward the end of the affair. But there is a realization that it is a balancing act -- to prevent al Qaeda infiltration and to maintain the collaboration of nationalist insurgents. "It's a risk worth taking," Mixon said. http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/m...iraq/index.html

Wrong forum?

can they not see they are falling into the same cycle they always do...

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail Wrong forum?

Oops yea. Can a mod please move this to the pdd? Dammit I'm getting old.

Wow, you're giving the COR a lot of credit here.

I find it rather funny that no one in the military seems to understand that it is exactly this type of stategy that has created this problem to begin with. Good to see the cycle is bound to continue uninterupted.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Wow, you're giving the COR a lot of credit here. I find it rather funny that no one in the military seems to understand that it is exactly this type of stategy that has created this problem to begin with. Good to see the cycle is bound to continue uninterupted.

Go USA!


Oh wait.

Really, this cold war tactic of arming waring factions to fight a proxy war is exactly what has lead to the development of a number of groups, "rouge governments", warlords, and dictators which the US now wants rid of. What makes them thing that arming new dissident groups to fight the last generation they created will be anymore successful in the long run?

Maybe this is just Vietnam syndrom writ large... we can't risk loosing the amount of troops required to get the job done right so we'll let the locals fight for us... afterall, Americans don't vote based on the number of tribesmen that die.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Maybe this is just Vietnam syndrom writ large... we can't risk loosing the amount of troops required to get the job done right so we'll let the locals fight for us... afterall, Americans don't vote based on the number of tribesmen that die.

Even if this plan is successful in reducing Al-Qaeda, it will still leave the insurgency stronger than before. The fun part will come when the Iraqi government (and the coalition) will have to clash with the new, American armed insurgency.

yup, this strategy is weak sauce to say the least. Seriously folks, if you don't have the will or ability to fight the wars then stop starting them.

If they turned this into a film it would be called Memento.

Re: Since the The Surge® has failed, operation Arm the Insurgency and Baathists has b

quote:

Originally posted by occrider This can only end well.

You damn America-hater. Why do you even bother living in this country?

Don't you see that we have such incredible nonbiased leaders on the ground like Gen. Patraeus who can see into the future and project Progress®?:

quote:

The senior U.S. commanders in Iraq -- Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno and Gen. David Petraeus -- want the surge to continue until at least December and expect to report enough progress in Iraq by September to justify it, officials told ABC News' Martha Raddatz. http://abcnews.go.com/WN/IraqCovera...=3236822&page=1

Nevermind that:

quote:

Three months after the start of the Baghdad security plan that has added thousands of American and Iraqi troops to the capital, they control fewer than one-third of the city’s neighborhoods, far short of the initial goal for the operation, according to some commanders and an internal military assessment. "We were way too optimistic," said the officer, adding that September is now the goal for establishing basic security in most neighborhoods, the same month that Bush administration officials have said they plan to review the progress of the plan. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/w...serland&emc=rss

And nevermind that we already have 200 civilian deaths and 28 military deaths already in June (past 7 days), I'm sick of seeing you America-haters spread your Michael Moore-like propaganda.

Shame.

Re: Re: Since the The Surge® has failed, operation Arm the Insurgency and Baathists has b

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 And nevermind that we already have 200 civilian deaths and 28 military deaths already in June (past 7 days),

...and was that due dirctly to 'The Surge'?

Where's that confirmation?

Re: Since the The Surge® has failed, operation Arm the Insurgency and Baathists has b

quote:

Originally posted by occrider This can only end well.

Yeah, sort of like how giving the Afgan's guns in the 1980's worked, well it ended well... well it did something at the time. Well alright it ended biting the US on the arse.

the 5th of the five surge brigades and a Marine Expiditionary Unit is coming up from Kuwait as of the 7th and will be in place in two weeks including a combat aviation brigade (Apache's, Blackhawks and troop carriers).

...so the "surge" has yet to be fully realized and implemented.

EDIT> there can be some real good to come from this. these are the bravest and smartest there is. they are already doing so well.

you can't draw parallels with mid-80's Afghanistan and Iraq today.

the suiciders are the last ones to be stopped. in theory we can't stop them. they know that, everyone knows that. but we can get this country to fight them on their own terms socially and militarily to be more effective.

something is working here. of course we can be cynical and draw all kinds of conclusions as to what might happen, but as far as plan is going...it's going.

if there is a chance in hell then you have to take it.

I keep hearing from the left, "We can't keep fighting the Iraqi's own conflict." So, we try to make the Iraqi's fight their own battles. But, now you people still complain. At least their fighting their own battles to stabilize their particular region.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I keep hearing from the left, "We can't keep fighting the Iraqi's own conflict." So, we try to make the Iraqi's fight their own battles. But, now you people still complain. At least their fighting their own battles to stabilize their particular region.

That's just the things though, from day one they've been trying to get Iraq to fight on their own.
Most people just can't understand that it takes time for this to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you can't draw parallels with mid-80's Afghanistan and Iraq today.

Course I can, it's another alliance of convenience and proverbial 'arms length' accountability by the US.
So, after the nice new friends are done shooting up their local neighbourhood with their nice new US guns, they're just going to hand them back in once they're done and not contribute in any way what so ever to the unsanctioned arms trade. Which by the way, sees all kinds of unsavoury people picking themselves up some pieces of military hardware for the next bit of homicidal activity which suits them and usually isn't in line with US policy.

But I suppose the US citizen shouldn't worry too much about that.
After all, it's a long way away from your own backyard.

Pretty much every analyst outside Washington (and some in presumably) predicted cutting the Baathists out of society would lead to the problems we see today...

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith But I suppose the US citizen shouldn't worry too much about that. After all, it's a long way away from your own backyard.

Unfortunately, it seems that out of sight out of mind is the reality of American politics. When the bodies of American citizens come home in boxes people withdraw support for the war, subsequently, for the government. If the bodies in the boxes aren't American then no one cares. Compounding this is the fact that politians are concerned with their re-election, not what's in the best interest of the country (or world for that matter). The end result is that decisions are made based on voter suppor for the next round of elections rather then long term implications. It's no wonder the US is destined to lose all they seek to gain in foreign policy... when one side is focused on the next 6 months and the other side is willing to stick it out as long as it takes then the eventual winner is obvious.

wow, what a surprise!

You'd almost think that we wanted Iraq to remain in turmoil.......

Re: Re: Since the The Surge® has failed, operation Arm the Insurgency and Baathists h

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Yeah, sort of like how giving the Afgan's guns in the 1980's worked, well it ended well... well it did something at the time. Well alright it ended biting the US on the arse.

Not really.

It's failing to give a damn about Afghans after Soviets left that created the situation today.

A bit of reoccuring situation in American foreign policy really.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I keep hearing from the left, "We can't keep fighting the Iraqi's own conflict." So, we try to make the Iraqi's fight their own battles. But, now you people still complain. At least their fighting their own battles to stabilize their particular region.

No. No, no, no, and no. Are you daft? A policy of arming and enabling the Iraqi army or the Iraqi police would be consistent with a policy of Iraqi's fighting their own battles. Arming the insurgency, which is difficult to control and is prone to attacking US forces is fucking retarded. FFS they even stated that they would attack US forces as soon as Al-Qaeda became less of a threat.

Do you actually think this is anything but a tactic of desperation???

Oh yea, so one of the groups we've been arming ... I guess they changed their minds

What I keep hearing from the "right" is that they are willing to sacrifice American lives and copious amounts of my tax dollars to justify this administration's incompetance. Hey, you guys have been fantastic, pass out a few more freedom medals.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7060602642.html

quote:

Originally posted by occrider What I keep hearing from the "right" is that they are willing to sacrifice American lives and copious amounts of my tax dollars to justify this administration's incompetance. Hey, you guys have been fantastic, pass out a few more freedom medals. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7060602642.html

oh i forgot. it's all about the short term margins with you

i was the typical American. now it's you. congrats

quote:

Originally posted by occrider What I keep hearing from the "right" is that they are willing to sacrifice American lives and copious amounts of my tax dollars to justify this administration's incompetance. Hey, you guys have been fantastic, pass out a few more freedom medals.

+1
and while we are at it, lets cut the returning vet's medical benifits while we are at it....... grrrrrrrrr

quote:

Originally posted by occrider A policy of arming and enabling the Iraqi army or the Iraqi police would be consistent with a policy of Iraqi's fighting their own battles. Arming the insurgency, which is difficult to control and is prone to attacking US forces is fucking retarded. FFS they even stated that they would attack US forces as soon as Al-Qaeda became less of a threat. Do you actually think this is anything but a tactic of desperation???

Desperation born of idiocy?
It's the sort of ass-backwards logic of
"Oh hey there's a place which is getting shot up a lot by uncontrolled militia groups."
"How are we going to stop it?"
"Give them more guns to do it with!"

*Brilliant!*

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