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Fierce Gaza fighting sparks fears of civil war

I probably could have fit this in another thread somewhere but I couldn't see where it could have gone....anyways, hopefully this gets resolved quick-fast lest the Palenstinians wishing they were actually under Israeli control...
(for the record I'm not suggesting that they should but don't be surprised if Israel steps up if things get too bad).

quote:

Fierce Gaza fighting sparks fears of civil war Rival Palestinian leaders traded accusations of coup and assassination attempts on Tuesday as intensified factional violence once again threatened to plunge Gaza into civil war. Heavy gun battles erupted in several locations as Hamas's armed wing stepped up attacks on rival Fatah security positions. Several Fatah commanders loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas expressed frustration with a lack of orders to fight back. Some 200 Hamas fighters surrounded the headquarters of Fatah-allied forces in northern Gaza. The attackers fired mortar shells and rocket-propelled grenades at the compound, where some 500 security officers were holed up. "They are attacking from all sides," said one of the officers, Khaled Awad. At least four smaller security bases were overrun by Hamas in the southern town of Khan Younis. Earlier Tuesday, a rocket-propelled grenade struck the home of Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in the Shati refugee camp in Gaza City, the second attack on his residence in as many days Hamas called the attack an assassination attempt by Fatah. There were no injuries. Abbas, who is in the West Bank, appealed for a new ceasefire and accused Hamas of "planning to stage a coup against the legitimate institutions" and trying to gain control of Gaza by force. Earlier, four mortar shells hit Abbas's Gaza City compound, but caused no injuries. In the West Bank, Fatah gunmen kidnapped a deputy cabinet minister from Hamas and threatened to retaliate to the attacks by killing other Hamas leaders. 'Gaza is burning now' The battles once again brought civilian life in Gaza to a standstill Tuesday, as residents locked themselves indoors. University exams were cancelled, despite an earlier ceasefire called to allow students to finish the school year in relative peace. "Gaza is burning now by the hands of Palestinians," journalist Hamza el-Attar told CBC News Tuesday in a telephone interview. "Bullets are everywhere." Hopes of a ceasefire to halt clashes that have killed at least 18 people in the last 24 hours appeared crushed as exasperated Egyptian mediators said the bitter rivals turned down an appeal to meet for truce talks. A Fatah spokesman said the movement would decide in the next few hours whether to stay in the three-month-old coalition government. The most recent violence has seen people on both sides shot at close range in street executions, while others died in shootouts, including one inside a hospital. The violence stems from a dispute over which side would control security forces as part of the coalition government agreement between Hamas and Fatah. At least 80 people have died in the factional battles since May. A Palestinian youth looks out of the damaged house of Fatah leader Jamal Al-Jedyan on Tuesday after it was attacked and burned by militants in northern Gaza. Gunmen, apparently from Hamas, laid siege to the house of the senior Fatah official late Monday, then dragged him outside and killed him, security officials said. Medics reported that he was hit with 45 bullets. (Wissam Nassar-MannImages/Associated Press)

>>Source<<

Or course, now that the Palenstinians are fighting amoungst themselves, the Palestine-can-do-no-wrong crowd goes silent?
Come out, come out, wherever you are...
What's your take on this?
I'm not trying to be an ass here, I'm genuinely curious what your thought are...

Did you have a wank when you heard this news?!

It's been coming for a long time, very sad and pathetic in a way.

What do you think the causes are Firestarter?

Personally I think the main reason is the lack of funding for the PA, it's driven people to desperation. But then Hamas and Fatah have been mortal enemies since Hamas arrived on the scene (and should be a lesson to everybody not to lazily lump Arab militants into one harmonious group like America did before the Iraq war!)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Personally I think the main reason is the lack of funding for the PA, it's driven people to desperation. But then Hamas and Fatah have been mortal enemies since Hamas arrived on the scene (and should be a lesson to everybody not to lazily lump Arab militants into one harmonious group like America did before the Iraq war!)

read power struggle.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_M read power struggle.

True. But it would be more accurate to say power struggle in the absence of a viable state

I think Hamas was voted in for the wrong reason.

People viewed them as heroes for their obvious involvement with removing Isreal from Palestine but evidently, that view was shortsighted since they seemingly 'forgot' that Hama's agenda ultimately includes Isreal's destruction.

Why should anyone be surprised be any of the current actions of Hamas, etc.?

Good luck to them trying to get rid of Hamas now if thats what it comes to...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley True. But it would be more accurate to say power struggle in the absence of a viable state

I would agree with that.

If Hamas takes over, the Palestinians will just suffer even more. They will continue to attack Israel and provoke them to make more incursions and precision strikes. Hopefully, terrorism won't prevail.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley True. But it would be more accurate to say power struggle in the absence of a viable state

everything is (has been for years ) in place for there to be a viable state. hell, two damn states. gimme a frikken break.

nothing but misplaced sympathy and excuses. no shortage of that around here and around the world. do you think that is really whats needed FFS?

Only party that wins in this 'civil war' is Israel

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I think Hamas was voted in for the wrong reason. People viewed them as heroes for their obvious involvement with removing Isreal from Palestine but evidently, that view was shortsighted since they seemingly 'forgot' that Hama's agenda ultimately includes Isreal's destruction.

Hamas has it's "core" support in Palestine just as every other political party in the world has it's core support. I think Hamas' core support vote for them for the reasons you mentioned but the reason they won is because the Palestinians were fed up with corruption in the PA (and the ruling Fatah party). Disillusionment with the prevailing government is a reaccuring theme within Arab nationalism. The ideology (like most of those brands of socialism) offer to modernise and implement policies for the social good. Unfortunately, they tend to go the way of authoritarianism and find it difficult to implement the policies they dreampt of. Cue the rise of Islamism - the next ideology promising to right societies wrongs (also Islam is usually turned to as a legitimising force by an Arab-Muslim population when faced with oppression etc)

I think Fatah probably went down the road of typical Arab nationalist regimes, and the Palestinian population went down the road typical of Arab Muslims.

Should point out Political Islam is not a problem in itself, only in the more extreme "al-Qaida" variety (which Hamas/Hizballah are not I dont think). The ideology of the White House, for example, could be compared to a lot of streams of Political Islam (and that's not a criticism btw)

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo everything is (has been for years ) in place for there to be a viable state. hell, two damn states. gimme a frikken break. nothing but misplaced sympathy and excuses. no shortage of that around here and around the world. do you think that is really whats needed FFS?

Thanks for that imput, you really helped the debate!

What do you define as a "viable state" and how is what you describe in place in Palestine?

Great.........

quote:

EU resumes aid to Palestinian government Gesture of faith in unity coalition comes as shots fired on PM's offices CanWest News Services; with files from Reuters; Agence France-Presse Published: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 GAZA CITY - The European Union resumed aid to the Palestinian finance ministry yesterday, for the first time since the West launched an economic boycott of the Islamist Hamas government more than a year ago. But the gesture of renewed faith came amid more violence, including shots fired at the offices of the Palestinian prime minister, which cast fresh doubt on the future of the fragile unity coalition. Israeli and western officials reported that funds from Arab and European donors are being used to lift a 15-month embargo of the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority. The funding is being released with the backing of the U.S. administration, prompting some Israeli officials to decry what they see as a shift in U.S. policy aimed at bolstering Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and currying Arab states' support.Mr. Abbas's secular Fatah faction joined a unity government led by Hamas three months ago. "The Palestinian Authority's financial position is much better today than six months ago. We are losing," said a senior Israeli official involved in overseeing the economic embargo imposed after Hamas defeated Fatah in a March 2006 election. Hamas refuses to recognize the Israeli state and is listed as a terrorist group by Canada and other western nations In the month since Washington said donors could send funds to Finance Minister Salam Fayyad through a Palestine Liberation Organization account, the account has received at least $160 million. The EU said yesterday it is renewing support for the Palestinian finance ministry, starting with a $5.3-million U.S. project to monitor the growing flow of donor funds. Diplomats said the EU is also considering expanding an existing aid mechanism to pay Palestinian police. Israel has objected to paying police because they technically fall under the Hamas-run interior ministry. Meanwhile, renewed Palestinian factional fighting killed 15 people in Gaza, bringing to 21 the number of people killed in the lawless territory since a new bout of internecine bloodshed between Hamas and Fatah erupted last week. "Everybody is shooting at everybody," a doctor at the Beit Hanoun hospital in the northern Gaza Strip said, hours after another Egyptian-brokered ceasefire collapsed. The series of truces have failed to end the strife in which more than 600 Palestinians are estimated to have been killed since Hamas came to power. The heavy fighting in Gaza also cast a shadow over the future of the Hamas-Fatah unity coalition, formed three months ago. In fact, yesterday, gunmen fired from nearby rooftops on the offices of Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, forcing ministers to interrupt a cabinet meeting and flee. No one was hurt in the attack, which the government blamed on Fatah. Fatah denied its fighters were responsible for the shots. In spite of the violence and tensions, the EU agreed yesterday to pay the international accounting firm Ernst & Young to provide support and training of finance ministry officials in the territories. "This support for the ministry ... will help me ensure that we work in accordance with the best international standards, and that the government can give every Palestinian taxpayer the assurance that their money is being legally and honestly spent," the finance minister said. The EU, one of the biggest Palestinian donors, suspended direct aid to the Hamas government after last year's election.However, the European Commission decided to renew its assistance after Hamas formed a national unity government and appointed Mr. Fayyad, a political independent and widely respected economist. Despite the freeze on direct aid, the EU channelled $934 million of indirect support to the territories in 2006. Meanwhile, in advance of a visit to Washington next week and possible talks with Middle East power brokers in Egypt later in the month, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he was "prepared to renew talks ... at any time" with Mr. Abbas. Mr. Abbas cancelled talks with Mr. Olmert last week in a dispute over Israel's withholding of Palestinian tax revenues. A senior aide to Mr. Abbas said the president stood ready to meet Mr. Olmert any time -- once Israel released the money. Israel collects the funds on behalf of the Palestinian Authority on goods routed through Israel. Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat says the total amount of money currently owed is $600 million. Israel transferred $100 million after a summit between Mr. Olmert and Mr. Abbas last December.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen...80-5048956e2c62

Look everybody wat's done by Israel

quote:

Mr. Abbas cancelled talks with Mr. Olmert last week in a dispute over Israel's withholding of Palestinian tax revenues. A senior aide to Mr. Abbas said the president stood ready to meet Mr. Olmert any time -- once Israel released the money. Israel collects the funds on behalf of the Palestinian Authority on goods routed through Israel. Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat says the total amount of money currently owed is $600 million. Israel transferred $100 million after a summit between Mr. Olmert and Mr. Abbas last December.

Damn apartheid

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Thanks for that imput, you really helped the debate!

i don't particularly care to if Arabs and Palestinians continue to refuse to help themselves given all the help they have already recieved.

quote:

What do you define as a "viable state" and how is what you describe in place in Palestine?

your right it doesn't exist, now. however, that is no fault of the non-Arab international community, what i am part of.

Egypt is a viable state. Syria (a shithole) is a viable state. Lebanon is a viable state.

what is currently happening among Palestinians was totally inevitable given what they have been given, regardless of Israel.

if Israel was the excuse yesterday, then it sure as shit isn't today...and if you continue to think otherwise then you are no better than the Arabs who have doomed them to fail...ALL of them.

the Palestinians are a sick, sick people (not mentally for the most part, but as a society). the worst losers in all of history. aided and abbetted by indifferent, callous and murderous peers. and they have forced it upon THEMSELVES to remain standing the only ones who can heal them. they have forced upon THEMSELVES to be their only salvation. no one can help them. they won't let anyone help them.

Israel chose correctly a while back to wash their hands of them. Palestinians would do better to do the same with Israel. don't you agree?

As usual no matter what happens its the'Jooos fault'. Muslims cannot take responsibility for anything they are lifes perpetual victims. You know the fat kid who eats all the fried chicken,chips and french fries then blames everyone else for his being fat and wants to sue McDonalds and KFC. Take a good look at this FICTIONAL state of Palestine and you will see what is in store for the future if the radicals ever get control.


Fatah vs Hamas - no one loses.

No matter who dies, there will be 72 virgins in paradise waiting.

The Fatah imams say so. The Hamas imams say so.

Everyone is a winner.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX As usual no matter what happens its the'Jooos fault'. Muslims cannot take responsibility for anything they are lifes perpetual victims. You know the fat kid who eats all the fried chicken,chips and french fries then blames everyone else for his being fat and wants to sue McDonalds and KFC. Take a good look at this FICTIONAL state of Palestine and you will see what is in store for the future if the radicals ever get control. Fatah vs Hamas - no one loses. No matter who dies, there will be 72 virgins in paradise waiting. The Fatah imams say so. The Hamas imams say so. Everyone is a winner.

well i'll be a monkey's uncle. look what the PDD drug in

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo well i'll be a monkey's uncle. look what the PDD drug in

I have taken the Shaolin Z approach.......to PDD


but....
it was actually M.Johan's tripe, I just could not resist........

I mean why does he or she always have to blame someone else for these people actions against each other? I mean really

plus I am bored at work tongiht

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Israel chose correctly a while back to wash their hands of them. Palestinians would do better to do the same with Israel. don't you agree?

I want Israel to wipe their hands clean of Palestine! But they haven't. Oslo was a joke and Camp David was little better. Neither peace summit addressed final status issues (you know, the issues that provoke Palestinian terrorism) which meant both were doomed to fail. Neither "offer" gave the Palestinians a viable state to establish some kind of normalacy, instead, it just preserved the status quo. If you want the Palestinians to vote for the moderates instead of Hamas, then Israel needs to withdraw from all occupied territories and the settlers can either stay where they are under Palestinian law or go home to America. Until those conditions are met there will never be peace and no amount of bullshit or spin from people like you will ever pursuade anybody that Israel has EVER offered the Palestinians plausible agreement that would bring about peace.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX As usual no matter what happens its the'Jooos fault'.

Your argument loses any respectability at this point, which is a shame because it's the first thing you say (tho I find it rather telling how you equate religious extremism to Fatah...)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley If you want the Palestinians to vote for the moderates instead of Hamas, then Israel needs to withdraw from all occupied territories and the settlers can either stay where they are under Palestinian law or go home to America. Until those conditions are met there will never be peace and no amount of bullshit or spin from people like you will ever pursuade anybody that Israel has EVER offered the Palestinians plausible agreement that would bring about peace.

See Q, this is the Fat Kid who wants to sue KFC

So the in-fighting is all Israel's fault?? Every last bit of it huh? The poor Palestinians that are dying in the streets at this very moment from the in-fighting.... ITS ALL THE JEWS FAULT...

Do you smell what you are shoveling.... when the hell are you going to accept that responsibility, screw that; when are the Palestinians going to accept responsibility for THEIR ACTIONS......


the title of the thread was
Fierce Gaza fighting sparks fears of civil war not "lets blame Israel for everything.... pathetic, completely and totally pathetic

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Until those conditions are met there will never be peace .

and the current situation reflects as much?

there's no spin going on here dude. i'm just calling it like i see it. you can't spin this crap thats for sure.

saying Oslo wasn't good enough or Camp David sucked or the 6 day war was unfair is more spin than anything. it's shit like that that would have made Arafat proud.

all the excuses makes rational people wanna puke and Iran get a hard on. GOD you f**king people are delusional.

you deserve what you have.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Your argument loses any respectability at this point, which is a shame because it's the first thing you say (tho I find it rather telling how you equate religious extremism to Fatah...)

I tell you what jorge, when Hamas and Fatah or any so called movement, Hizbolla too, drops all of the religious undertones and leaves that focked up pedo's teachings at the door, then maybe the rest of the world will come to the table and give them respect.

in the mean time....



oh and before I get slammed for the pedo remark...

quote:

The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old. Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof. Sahih Bukhari 7.18 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

what a shame.... and this is what is the underlying base to all of the blood shed with in the muslim faith.....not just Palestine, but every where else murder is commited in the name of the islamic faith...

and I thought the story of absalom was messed up

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX See Q, this is the Fat Kid who wants to sue KFC So the in-fighting is all Israel's fault?? Every last bit of it huh? The poor Palestinians that are dying in the streets at this very moment from the in-fighting.... ITS ALL THE JEWS FAULT...

Why is it always "Jews"? Is that the only "argument" you can come back with? FYI, no, it is not all the Jews, sorry, Israel's fault. Many factors have contributed such as the corruption of Fatah, the elcetion of Hamas and their fucked up views of the destruction of Israel. But you cannot extract those factors, that do so much damage to the Palestinian's cause, from the context they are being acted out in - namely, the lack of a viable state and the conditions such a state would provide for consolidation and I'm sorry but a great proportion of that blame must lie with Israel and their policies (particularly regarding the Settlements in the West Bank which is probably the number one reason the Palestinians are pissed off and the number one reason why Israel implements the policies it does - on behalf of the Settlers)

I shall ignore the rest of your post

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I shall ignore the rest of your post

yeah I ignored all the FACTS as well when I started to realize that my religion was full of shite as well........ as well as responsible for millions of deaths through out mankind's time on this pale blue dot..

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo and the current situation reflects as much? there's no spin going on here dude. i'm just calling it like i see it. you can't spin this crap thats for sure. saying Oslo wasn't good enough or Camp David sucked or the 6 day war was unfair is more spin than anything. it's shit like that that would have made Arafat proud. all the excuses makes rational people wanna puke and Iran get a hard on. GOD you f**king people are delusional. you deserve what you have.

The funny thing is you call me "delusional" yet outside of America you'd be hard pressed to find large swathes of support for your point of view. Perhaps you're the delusional one being brainwashed by AIPAC like the rest of your country folk? Perhaps 9/11 has made you hate all Arabs and Muslims and you take great pleasure in portraying them all as some sort of monsters?

And having done lots of research on Oslo and Camp David accords I'd be happy to carry on that debate in another thread if you like?

Also, I don't know what you mean by the 67 war being "unfair"? If you ask me Israel did what it had to do and it's occupation was down to valid security issues.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX yeah I ignored all the FACTS as well when I started to realize that my religion was full of shite as well........ as well as responsible for millions of deaths through out mankind's time on this pale blue dot..

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