TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- VST for inverting the phase?

VST for inverting the phase?

Does anyone know a VST plug-in (free if possible) to simply invert the phase of a track? We are putting a pretty good track together, but is suffers from some phase problems.

Cheers

Most sequencers allow you to invert the phase of a given audio track. Otherwise nearly all wave editors (wavelab, Peak, soundforge)have this as a basic function. Are you sure you need to invert the phase though? What's the problem?

Ok thanks for the suggestions, I'll check out the manual for Logic.

Well, I'm not sure I need invert the phase but I have to try something to isolate the cause. The problem is that the bass section gets cut out from time to time during the mix and I assume it's due to a phase problem. It's also more obvious when listening in big speakers or with a sub, so I'd figure it's some problem with the deep end bass. The bass section consists of:

- Low to mid bass line, plays almost on every note (stereo)
- Low sub bass (sine) plays between kick (mono)
- Mid, punchy kick (mono)
- Low sub kick, almost only heard on big speakers (mono)

Any ideas?

more likely than not your frequencies are overlapping causing this problem. try side-chain ducking or sidechain compression to allow your kick to punch through those frequencies. also this is where very controlled EQ becomes essential, to keep balance in your track. a little panning never hurt anyone as well, but generally make sure the low end sounds (especially the kick) don't veer to far from center.

as always, with production use your ears and keep it all in good taste. hope this solves your problem.

cheers,
andrew

SM - Don't get me wrong you are one of the few on this forum who actually know their shiznit, but I really don't understand why so many people have such hard-ons for these processes and think ducking and compression are the solution to nearly every problem.

Falck, you've listed three separate elements of your track that have low sub frequencies, not to mention mids which probably have lower harmonics that are bleeding in to those lows as well.

Remove (mute) each element one by one (in different orders) and see which one or combination is causing your phasing /mud problems.

You want to think about narrowing the bands of frequencies for each element so they sit together - you can have some overlap and the use subtle panning will also help with separation, but the key is to not have colliding frequencies. Measured compression can help to keep these frequnecies in place but it's a band aid, and not the cure.

Try cutting around 20-30Hz on the bassline.
Sometimes there is alot of sub frequencies that you can't even hear that eat up headroom. Anything below 30 Hz is generally considered useless, because humans can't hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN You want to think about narrowing the bands of frequencies for each element so they sit together - you can have some overlap and the use subtle panning will also help with separation, but the key is to not have colliding frequencies. Measured compression can help to keep these frequnecies in place but it's a band aid, and not the cure.

That is so true. My mixes were really muddy and wobbly before I learned this.

quote:

Originally posted by Eldritch Anything below 30 Hz is generally considered useless, because humans can't hear it.

They can't hear it, but they can definitely feel it in a club.

I'm having the same problem right now with one of my tracks. Every once in a while this issue comes up. I usually try to choose a bass and kick that don't collide with each other. What seems to happen is, when the bass and kick sound at the same time, they "team up", and make the kick sound louder, it's get boomy in that area. I don't really understand phase shifting. I tried the fruity loops phase shifter, and it just spreads the bass out, much like a stereo expander does. I like my basses relegated to the center of my mixes.

Well anyway, I might try a little panning on the bass. I already tried rolling the bass of at 20hz, it didn't help much.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut They can't hear it, but they can definitely feel it in a club.

Yes, I'm starting to think it's a bad idea to cutt frequencies on the bass end. Your mix might not sound right on loudspeakers with subwoofers. Cutting frequencies should be a last resort I think. I've finally decided to leave the bass end as it is, no EQ cutts, and I master using a 10hz rolloff.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut They can't hear it, but they can definitely feel it in a club.

No. The majority of the "feeling" comes from higher frequencies. The resonant frequency of the human chest is about 80Hz.

Most speakers and PA systems have built in 30hz highpass filters to protect the speakers from being damaged.
There's no point in having sub sonic frequencies in your mix if all it's going to do is eat up headroom.

quote:

Originally posted by Eldritch No. The majority of the "feeling" comes from higher frequencies. The resonant frequency of the human chest is about 80Hz. Most speakers and PA systems have built in 30hz highpass filters to protect the speakers from being damaged. There's no point in having sub sonic frequencies in your mix if all it's going to do is eat up headroom.

Why does everyone disagree on this issue? Who's right, who's wrong? Damn you guys are confusing me, LOL! So Most speakers and PA systems have built in 30hz highpass filters? You said MOST, so that doesn't mean all of them do.

quote:

Originally posted by zodiac9 I'm having the same problem right now with one of my tracks. Every once in a while this issue comes up. I usually try to choose a bass and kick that don't collide with each other. What seems to happen is, when the bass and kick sound at the same time, they "team up", and make the kick sound louder, it's get boomy in that area. I don't really understand phase shifting. I tried the fruity loops phase shifter, and it just spreads the bass out, much like a stereo expander does. I like my basses relegated to the center of my mixes. Well anyway, I might try a little panning on the bass. I already tried rolling the bass of at 20hz, it didn't help much. One thing about cutting frequencies, especially bass, the super low frequencies (10-16 hz I think it is) are ones that you feel, not hear. Don't you all think it's a bad idea to start cutting frequencies on the bass end? Your mix might not sound right on loudspeakers with subwoofers. I read that whole stickie about mastering, and everyone seems to disagree on this.

You don't want to be messing with the phase of bass and not really pan it either. The best thing to do is to EQ them so they don't fight each other, or team up as you put it. Compression can work too, but I usually solve my bass problems with EQ. It's less likely to mess up anything.

quote:

Originally posted by zodiac9 Why does everyone disagree on this issue? Who's right, who's wrong? Damn you guys are confusing me, LOL! So Most speakers and PA systems have built in 30hz highpass filters? You said MOST, so that doesn't mean all of them do.

Still, it doesn't matter as below 30Hz frequencies don't do shit other than make your speakers unstable or even damage them.

quote:

Originally posted by Eldritch No. The majority of the "feeling" comes from higher frequencies. The resonant frequency of the human chest is about 80Hz. Most speakers and PA systems have built in 30hz highpass filters to protect the speakers from being damaged. There's no point in having sub sonic frequencies in your mix if all it's going to do is eat up headroom.

Many Phazon and RLA sound systems (among the most respected in the world, and found in many of the most popular clubs) have a frequency response from 20 Hz. Now, I didn't design these things, but I'm going to assume that they probably wouldn't waste their money designing systems like this if it didn't make any perceptible difference.

Edit: I can't seem to find the RLA models with that range. Either I'm mistaken, or those models aren't in production anymore, or those ones I read about a while back were custom builds. I'm not sure which. Anyway, it's still true of the Phazons, and when you're dealing at peak power levels of 50 kW, the sub-low frequencies really do matter.

Ok, night spent in studio (this is really bad for my regular job), thanks all for the suggestions, I tried this:

- Converting the low-mid bass line to mono, this helpt but killed the "biggness" of that bass sound that is kinda essential for this tune.

- Sidechaning low-mid bass line, moderate sidechaning didn't do much and heavy sidechaning killed the groove and just made the bass pump, which is not what I wanted in this case. Also that bass sound itself is made of "bass sound + reverb + sidechain" (this combination sometimes gives pretty cool sounds by the way, Benassi way), bounced and inserted to an audio track.

- So, what solved it in the end was the good old EQ as DJ RANN & Eldritch suggested. I thought I was safe with the low-mid bass line cause I had a low cut at 100Hz, however I stared to narrow the bass line even more a there it was. It somehow collided with the other bass elements somewhere in 100-200Hz area, so a low cut just above 200Hz made it sit nicely in the mix. This changed the character of the tune a bit, but to the better.

The rest of the EQ is fine, no mids leaks down to the bass area and the high end is bright and shiny, only a few hihats are a bit harsh, but that will be taken care of 2night. I also routed the 4 bass elements to a bus and compressed them a little with sonaksis stereo compressor which gave real good punch to it

Cheers everyone

Falck- Glad to hear you sorted it and would like to hear the tune when you're done!

One other thing I thought for future reference is to use spatial panning/separator FX on each element. I've heard tracks with things that usually collide and after making sure there were no frequency conflicts and the normal panning was more or less sorted, they did benefit greatly from spatial fx. Just a thought and could be useful next time.......

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Many Phazon and RLA sound systems (among the most respected in the world, and found in many of the most popular clubs) have a frequency response from 20 Hz. Now, I didn't design these things, but I'm going to assume that they probably wouldn't waste their money designing systems like this if it didn't make any perceptible difference. Edit: I can't seem to find the RLA models with that range. Either I'm mistaken, or those models aren't in production anymore, or those ones I read about a while back were custom builds. I'm not sure which. Anyway, it's still true of the Phazons, and when you're dealing at peak power levels of 50 kW, the sub-low frequencies really do matter.

Frequency response doesn't mean anything unless there's a graph or a dB limit to go by.
Hell, my Alesis M1 Mk2s (which have 6.5" drivers) boasts a response from 38Hz-23.5 kHz.
The truth is that they are relatively flat down to about 50 Hz and the start to drop off dramatically.

quote:

Originally posted by Eldritch Frequency response doesn't mean anything unless there's a graph or a dB limit to go by. Hell, my Alesis M1 Mk2s (which have 6.5" drivers) boasts a response from 38Hz-23.5 kHz. The truth is that they are relatively flat down to about 50 Hz and the start to drop off dramatically.

Of course, that's why they also tell you the crossover point. I really have no clue what a Phazon or RLA crossover point is, but it doesn't matter - even though the frequency response drops off at the low end, the stated frequency response does tell you the minimum frequency that it's capable of putting out. If they state it as starting at 20 Hz, that means that you'll get some 20 Hz sound out of it, however little it may be.

When you're dealing with the power levels used in clubs, even a 20 dB drop in the bass is still going to be felt.

Seismic frequencies are generally in the 1 - 20 Hz range. People can definitely feel those.

Back to the original request, I couldn't find a vst tool to invert phase, but here's a dx one... http://www.analogx.com/contents/dow...audio/phase.htm

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.