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About Zionism Ghetto
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| Ex-parliament speaker paints Israel 'Zionist ghetto' Fri Jun 8, 11:19 AM ET JERUSALEM (AFP) - A former speaker of Israel's parliament considers the country a "Zionist ghetto" whose self-definition as a Jewish state is the key to its ruin, in an interview published on Friday. It can't work anymore. To define the State of Israel as a Jewish state is the key to its end. A Jewish state is explosive. It's dynamite," Avraham Burg, parliamentary speaker from 1999 to 2003, told the Haaretz newspaper. "People find this (Israel as a Jewish democratic state) very comfortable. It's lovely. It's schmaltzy. It's nostalgic. It's retro. It gives a sense of fullness. But 'Jewish-democratic' is nitroglycerine." Burg has newly written a book, "Defeating Hitler," in which Haaretz says he describes Israel as a "Zionist ghetto" and compares Israeli behaviour in the occupied Palestinian territories to that of Nazi Germany. Also a former chairman of the semi-governmental Jewish Agency responsible for immigration to Israel, Burg called for discussion of the law of return, under which any Jew is able to come to live in Israel. "The law of return is an apologetic law. It is the mirror image of Hitler. I don't want Hitler to define my identity," he said. Religious and a former activist in the anti-settlement Peace Now movement, Burg is today a businessman who considers Israeli society paranoid and comparable to pre-Nazi Germany. "The separation fence (built by Israel in the West Bank) is a fence against paranoia ... There is something so xenophobic about it. So insane," he said. He criticised targeted assassinations carried out by the Israeli army against Palestinian militants and compared "some of the certainly" to murder. |
Wow, what a load of crap.
Nice to see an influential man stand up!
Wow, Israel has a leftwing
Of course, being a western democracy Israel, just like the rest of the west faces the same wackos on the left as it sees on the right. But they are there, they critize and they serve a very important purposes in always questioning government and ensuring liberty.
When was the last time the Egyptian left (do real political parties actually exist there) openly able to critize your government in exactly?
Dang, Mr. Avraham Burg understands the threat to his country's security from the current policies of the Israeli government. I am sure he is not just against his own country, he is merely pointing out the problems the state of Israel will have in the future if the status quo is maintained. He is worried for the future of Israel.
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Wow, what a load of crap. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Wow, Israel has a leftwing ![]() |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Wow, what a load of crap. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Wow, Israel has a leftwing Of course, being a western democracy Israel, just like the rest of the west faces the same wackos on the left as it sees on the right. But they are there, they critize and they serve a very important purposes in always questioning government and ensuring liberty. |
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| When was the last time the Egyptian left (do real political parties actually exist there) openly able to critize your government in exactly? |
in Israel.
you need to remember that although egypt may seem like a democracy on the outside, due to pathetic backing by the Bush himself, it is almost completely irrelivant what Egypts left or right says about Israel. What they do to Palestinians is apartheid, hands down.
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| Originally posted by xiad you need to remember that although egypt may seem like a democracy on the outside, due to pathetic backing by the Bush himself |
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| Originally posted by xiad it is almost completely irrelivant what Egypts left or right says about Israel. What they do to Palestinians is apartheid, hands down. |
On paper, Egypt is a democracy. But how can you ignore the fact Husni Mubarak wants to make his son the next 'President' of Egypt. That sounds alot like a hybrid monarchy to me. And yes, Israel has waged a BLATANT apartheid against the Palestinian people.
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| Originally posted by xiad On paper, Egypt is a democracy. But how can you ignore the fact Husni Mubarak wants to make his son the next 'President' of Egypt. That sounds alot like a hybrid monarchy to me. And yes, Israel has waged a BLATANT apartheid against the Palestinian people. |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Evidently you have no clue what 'Apartheid' is so here's a primer... |
I'de be paranoid if I never knew if I could get bombed while going to the club, mall, cafe, or ride the bus. No wonder Israel is constantly having to make incursions into the palestinean territory.
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| Originally posted by George Smiley And clearly you have no clue as to what the Apartheid argument actually is! It's not about domestic Israeli policy, but about Israeli policy in the occupied territories. Not that I would describe them as Apartheid (tho I can see elements), if you're going to voice your opinion on the 'Apartheid debate' then at least know what it is your opinion refers to... |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r I guess we didn't watch the same video... It's up above if you want to watch it... |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Yes my post above is directed to you and the video...you don't know what the argument is. Or... You do know what the argument is, and either agree with it or cannot argue against it, so you move the goal posts and create a new argument, one that you can argue against. It's called creating a straw man. Now you realise you've been caught out, in future, when arguing against Israel being labelled as an Apartheid state, or more specifically, implementing Apartheid policies in the occupied territories, please restrict your arguments to issues effecting the Palestinians living in those territories, and not some argument you have invented about the lives of Arab citizens of Israel (who are not, in this argument, referred to as Palestinians) |

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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r So according to you, there are no Palestinians that live in Israel and they live only in the 'occupied lands'? Right. 'Apartheid' is a word of convenience being thrown around for those too lazy to explain the real situation; at worst, it's called discrimination because lord know THAT doesn't happen to anybody in ANY Arab state. ![]() Unless you can come up with evidence of 'Jews only buses', etc. I suggest you learn your context before using it in any argument. My argument was far from, 'Straw Man' (yet another term that gets thrown around here), it was used to illustrate the point that if they don't do it IN Israel, why would they do it, OUTSIDE Israel? Where's the written agenda on that?? |
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| Originally posted by xiad On paper, Egypt is a democracy. |
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| Originally posted by xiad But how can you ignore the fact Husni Mubarak wants to make his son the next 'President' of Egypt. That sounds alot like a hybrid monarchy to me. |
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| Originally posted by xiad And yes, Israel has waged a BLATANT apartheid against the Palestinian people. |
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| Originally posted by Krypton I'de be paranoid if I never knew if I could get bombed while going to the club, mall, cafe, or ride the bus. No wonder Israel is constantly having to make incursions into the palestinean territory. |

Just because few Arab countries do not allow women to vote is irrelivant to the Israeli/Palestinian problem. Granted, I do agree with that fact that such practices against women are backwards and disgusting.
Despite my minor agreement with you on that issue, Fir3start3r, you must look at the fact on the ground.
1) The Palestinian people are oppressed whether or not they reside in the occupied territories. Arab Israeli's, who have Israeli papers due to the fact that their families land was seized in 1946, are discriminated against as well. There may not be segregated buses, but there ARE segregated communities, and for the most part, a massivley nagative regard toward such Arabs.
2) Despite popular belief, not all Palestinians are Muslim extremists. Actually, there are THOUSANDS of Palestinian Christains suffering under the same circumstances as their fellow Muslim Palestinians. And keep in mind, just because their Muslim, doesn't make them a terrorist.
3) Last time there was a wall built to separate two parts of a country, we called it the Berlin Wall. The Israelis have built a wall right through the middle of towns and villages, killing the local Palestinian economy and cutting off essential human rights, such as the right to education. I highly doubt hearing "Olmert, tear down this wall." any time soon out of the mouth of Bush.
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| 'Apartheid' is a word of convenience being thrown around for those too lazy to explain the real situation; at worst, it's called discrimination because lord know THAT doesn't happen to anybody in ANY Arab state. |
Good post (but don't hold your breath that anyone will listen to any of it!)
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| Originally posted by George Smiley And clearly you have no clue as to what the Apartheid argument actually is! It's not about domestic Israeli policy, but about Israeli policy in the occupied territories. Not that I would describe them as Apartheid (tho I can see elements), if you're going to voice your opinion on the 'Apartheid debate' then at least know what it is your opinion refers to... |
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| Originally posted by xiad Just because few Arab countries do not allow women to vote is irrelivant to the Israeli/Palestinian problem. Granted, I do agree with that fact that such practices against women are backwards and disgusting. |

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1) The Palestinian people are oppressed whether or not they reside in the occupied territories. Arab Israeli's, who have Israeli papers due to the fact that their families land was seized in 1946, are discriminated against as well. There may not be segregated buses, but there ARE segregated communities, and for the most part, a massivley nagative regard toward such Arabs. |
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2) Despite popular belief, not all Palestinians are Muslim extremists. Actually, there are THOUSANDS of Palestinian Christains suffering under the same circumstances as their fellow Muslim Palestinians. And keep in mind, just because their Muslim, doesn't make them a terrorist. |
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3) Last time there was a wall built to separate two parts of a country, we called it the Berlin Wall. The Israelis have built a wall right through the middle of towns and villages, killing the local Palestinian economy and cutting off essential human rights, such as the right to education. I highly doubt hearing "Olmert, tear down this wall." any time soon out of the mouth of Bush. |

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4) Discrimination is one thing, hate crimes, rape, and MURDER are something else entirely. YES, you are right, discrimination occurs in all Arab states. I see where your going with this, your insinuations are what make it conveniant for YOU to post on message boards in utter ignorance about the situation on the ground. Judging by the sarcastic use of wording, and posting of HIGHLY IRREVILANT films, it seems like you enjoy hearing the sound of your own voice, rather, reading the words of your own text. Discrimination occurs in all countries. Take the United States for example. There has been over 200 years of discrimination against any people of color. Blacks, asians, latinos, jews, and now arabs. All have experienced some sort of discrimination in the "Land of the Free". I see no need to elaborate further on this. |
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Furthermore, you must remember that the Israeli and US governments have induced a near civil war int he Palestinian territories following the election of Hamas. |
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Instead, the US decided to cut off funds to the Palestinian territories, causing unprecidented unemployment in the territories, |
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A Bad Week for the Good Guys Hamas, Fatah, and the new Palestinian reality. by Tom Rose 06/22/2007 12:00:00 AM THE PAST WEEK has been a good one for terrorists. The birth of the world's first truly terrorist state in Gaza was quickly followed by a Western response that, if sustained, all but guarantees that terror state's survival. While there are plenty of examples, past and present, of states that encourage, fund and even practice terrorism, no nations have ever been created explicitly for the sake of terrorism. Not even the Taliban. Hamas was built upon the terrorist edifice created by the organization it recently supplanted--the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), or "Fatah" as it is has become more recently known. The PLO was created in 1964, three years before the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, not to create the world's 22nd Arab state, but to destroy its only Jewish state. Hamas overthrew the PLO in Gaza not to change the PLO's dream, but to fulfill it. What, then, is Washington's answer to Hamastan in Gaza? Why, another bailout of the one organization responsible for the entire debacle in the first place--the PLO. After 45 years of ground work preparing for Hamas' takeover by radicalizing Palestinian society through blood-curdling terrorism, mind-boggling corruption, and world-class inefficiency, the U.S. and Israeli governments have announced their gratitude to Fatah with a billion dollar emergency aid package. Worse than being just another advertisement for diplomatic incompetence, this feeble response to the Hamas takeover will achieve the opposite of what we claim to want. Force- feeding life back into the PLO will not weaken Hamas; it will strengthen it by giving the PLO another chance to demonstrate its fraudulent duplicity. Funding the PLO will not strengthen any real Palestinian moderates; it will discredit them by seeming to tie their fortunes once again to a corrupt, inept--and immoderate--organization. Palestinian society cannot be transformed by reviving the group responsible for its degradation. How does one fight terrorism by rewarding those who invented it? Do "Fatah first" advocates believe that financially rewarding the already heavily-armed and well-funded "security" fighters of Fatah, who turned tail and ran at the sight of Hamas gunmen, will lead them now to fight to retake their posts, having gotten a check from Washington? Do they think the PLO's corruption is best combated by re-upping the employment contracts for its 200,000 dysfunctional bureaucrats--60,000 of whom are the gangsters, thugs, and terrorists associated with the PLO's 13 so called "security services"? With Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert dutifully nodding by his side, President Bush called last week's debacle "a wonderful opportunity for freedom." How exactly is the resurrection of the world's founding terrorist organization a "wonderful opportunity" for anything other than more terrorism and corruption? It might be one thing if a policy of saving the PLO had never been tried. But it has been tried, and it has failed, not once, not twice, but three times. It was tried and failed in 1970 when President Nixon pressured Jordan's King Hussein to let the PLO decamp to Lebanon after the PLO failed to destroy Jordan. It destroyed Lebanon instead. In 1982 the United States again came to the PLO's rescue by arranging its exit from Lebanon during the Israeli invasion. The third, most damaging resuscitation came with the Oslo Peace Accords in 1993, this time not at American hands, but at Israel's. President Bush's "wonderful opportunity" pabulum is not only an embarrassing absurdity; it misses the whole point of what has happened in Gaza. Now there are two Palestines, an East Palestine (the West Bank) controlled by competing and discredited PLO warlords, and a West Palestine (Gaza) ruled by a fervently jihadist, well-organized, and highly disciplined Hamas. Even if something could be done to support Fatah in the West Bank (which in itself is undesirable), this would not enable Fatah to return to Gaza. The PLO is finished. The Palestinians know it. The Arabs know it. Only we don't know it. The PLO's leader, Abu Mazen, is as likely to use the West Bank to retake Gaza as Chiang Kai-shek was to use Taiwan to retake Communist China. Today's lifeline to the PLO will do no more to reverse the Hamas takeover of Gaza than American support for Chiang in the 1950s did to reverse Mao's takeover of the Chinese mainland. But at least with Taiwan we eventually got a model prosperous democracy--far more than we will ever get from supporting Fatah. Even in the West Bank, where the PLO is supposedly strong, Fatah is more a fiction than a fact. Its leader, Abu Mazen, is Palestine's version of the Holographic Doctor from Star Trek Voyager. As far as most Palestinians are concerned, he is nothing but a figment of the West's imagination, and not a very imaginative one at that. The 13 private militias and armies that make up Fatah control Abu Mazen. He does not control them. Abu Mazen is a puppet with no strings. He has no following in either Palestine, East or West. And the Bush-Olmert plan to prop him up won't succeed for long. The immediate danger to Israel and the West comes from Gaza, not the West Bank. It is in Gaza that Hamas can assemble serious and dangerous weaponry with which to attack Israel (not to mention other Palestinians). It is in Gaza, not the West Bank, where agents of the Iranian regime will plant themselves for renewed war against Israel. It is in Gaza where al Qaeda and other terrorists are already establishing themselves. Gaza is a terror threat, and the West Bank could well become even more of one than it is now. This is the reality democratic leaders should face, rather than wishing what is happening were not. |
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all within the cage of a 'security wall' courtesy of the Israeli government. |
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Now all Israel needs to do is watch as the Palestinians kill eachother over the Hamas/Fateh issue. Congratulations, democracy has prevailed, eh? |
Oh yea, forgot to mention...not only did America aid the Palestinians, so did Israel...
Not just a bit, but hundreds of millions...
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Israel agrees to release funds to Abbas By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press WriterSun Jun 24, 12:09 PM ET Israel agreed Sunday to begin releasing hundreds of millions of dollars in frozen tax funds to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, a gesture to bolster the moderate Palestinian leader in his standoff against the Islamic militant group Hamas. The decision came a day before Prime Minister Ehud Olmert heads to Egypt for a high-profile summit with Abbas, President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt and Jordanian King Abdullah II. The gathering is meant to give Abbas a high-profile display of support against Hamas, which violently seized control of the Gaza Strip in a bloody rout of Abbas' Fatah movement earlier this month. But Olmert cautioned against high expectations for the summit. "We have an interest in having this meeting, but I don't want anyone to think we're on the brink of a dramatic breakthrough," Olmert told his Cabinet, according to a meeting participant. Abbas, however, said he received U.S. and Israeli assurances that Israel was ready to make progress at the summit. The Palestinian president, who met with King Abdullah II in Jordan, said he would ask Israel to free Palestinian prisoners, in addition to easing restrictions at crossing points and releasing the tax money, the official Jordanian news agency Petra reported. Ismail Haniyeh, the deposed Palestinian prime minister, dismissed the summit as a "mirage," saying resistance was the only hope for Palestinians. "The Americans won't give anything. Israel won't give us anything. Our land, our nation will not come back to us except with steadfastness and resistance," a code word for attacks against Israel, he said in Gaza. The Palestinian infighting has left the Palestinians with two governments � Abbas' new Cabinet in the West Bank, and the Hamas rulers in Gaza. Israel and moderate Arab leaders have joined to support Abbas and isolate Hamas, a radical group pledged to Israel's destruction. Olmert aide David Baker said it was premature to begin talks on a final peace deal, despite calls from the Palestinians and other Arab countries to do so. Israel is prepared to discuss "a political horizon," he said. "These talks do not include final status issues, but rather how the prime minister and the president of the Palestinian Authority would envision a future Palestinian state." Israel has withheld some $550 million of Palestinian tax money since Hamas swept Palestinian parliamentary elections in January 2006, saying it feared Hamas would use the money to finance terror attacks. Abbas kicked Hamas out of the Palestinian government after the group took Gaza, clearing the way for a transfer of the money. Olmert's spokeswoman, Miri Eisin, said Sunday's Cabinet vote was a "decision in principle" to release the funds, and that the "exact amount" would be discussed at Monday's summit and then by the Israeli government. A Cabinet meeting participant said he expected a "mechanism" for transferring the money to be in place within days. However, he said the money would not begin flowing until Abbas' new government formally accepts international calls to renounce violence and recognize Israel. The official, who asked not to be identified under Israeli civil servant rules, said the money would be released gradually to ensure it doesn't reach Hamas. Meeting participants said the proposal passed by an overwhelming majority; only two hard-line ministers voted against it. Without the funds � mostly customs duties that Israel collects on behalf of the Palestinians � the Palestinian government has been unable to pay salaries. Mohammed Dahlan, a former top Fatah official in Gaza, urged Israel to turn over the money immediately. "This is not a gift," he said. "This is the Palestinian people's money, which was stolen by the Israelis." Haniyeh said some of the money must be directed to Gaza as well as the West Bank. It "must reach all Palestinian people without discrimination or differentiation," he said. Olmert also met with top security officials Sunday to discuss removing some of the hundreds of roadblocks Israel has erected in the West Bank. Israel says the travel restrictions are necessary security measures. Palestinians say they are excessive and crushing their economy. Although no decisions were made, Olmert told his Cabinet that removing the roadblocks would be a necessary risk. "We are strong enough to take calculated risks," he was quoted as saying. In return, Israel will demand in Egypt that Abbas confront militants � something he had been reluctant to do before Hamas' Gaza victory. "We shall present there our expectations from the opposite side, our demands on the issues of security and the war against terror, but definitely also our readiness to cooperate with the new government," Olmert said in televised comments before the Cabinet meeting. Since losing control of Gaza, Abbas has acted with uncharacteristic determination: He expelled Hamas from its coalition government with his Fatah movement, set up an emergency Cabinet, and embarked on a widening crackdown on the Islamic group that has included arrests of hundreds of gunmen in the West Bank and a plan to dry up its funding. The Hamas takeover of Gaza also complicates the case of Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier who has held captive by Hamas-linked militants in the coastal territory for a year. On Sunday, hundreds of protesters gathered outside Israel's Parliament to mark the one-year anniversary of Shalit's capture. Noam Shalit, the soldier's father, criticized the government for failing to win his son's release. "If an entire country, its leaders...the sophisticated systems it has, satellites, drones, can't bring back a soldier from captivity after an entire year, and can't even get firm information about his condition and health, then we should all be worried," Shalit said. |
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