sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

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Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Jul-04-2007 01:21:

sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

well here's a thought, how bout you stop kidnapping journalists?

quote:

GAZA (Reuters) -- Alan Johnston, the BBC journalist held hostage in Gaza since March 12, was handed over by his Islamist captors to ruling Hamas officials on Wednesday, a Palestinian source close to negotiations for his release said.

The source and another Palestinian involved in the talks both said they saw the 45-year-old Briton being taken into the care of officials from the Hamas movement, which seized full control of Gaza three weeks ago.

"He is sitting with his colleagues from the BBC office in Gaza," one of the witnesses said. "He is talking to them and he looks fine and well."

Johnston, the only Western correspondent working full-time in the troubled coastal enclave, was the longest held of a number of foreign correspondents who have been abducted in Gaza in the past several years.

His captors called themselves the Army of Islam, an al Qaeda-inspired group with links to one of Gaza's powerful clans.

They issued Web videos showing Johnston and seeking the release of Islamists held prisoner by Britain and other states.

Most recently, after Hamas officials threatened to free him by force from the clan's stronghold, Johnston was shown wearing a suicide belt with the warning he would die if that happened.

Hamas forces earlier Tuesday surrounded an area in Gaza City inhabited by the clan where Army of Islam has the bulk of its supporters and where Hamas believed Johnston was being held.

Hamas' police called the Executive Force said it would "continue to besiege the area until British journalist Alan Johnston, who was abducted a few months ago, is freed."

Abu Mujahed of the Popular Resistance Committees told Reuters: "Efforts are under way to conclude all the remaining issues."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast...reut/index.html

nice to see hamas might have finally concluded that too.

Posted by Yoepus on Jul-04-2007 04:31:

Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
well here's a thought, how bout you stop kidnapping journalists?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast...reut/index.html

nice to see hamas might have finally concluded that too.

definitely a good way to earn brownie points. BBC used to be their biggest supporter too!

Posted by Krypton on Jul-04-2007 05:36:

quote:
Originally posted by bubble
you know, sometimes i get filled with hope that the world is just, that humans are compassionate, that the wrong will do what's right,and that tomorrow will be better than today, and that everything (and i mean everything) will turn out alright. i feel like that right now.

Are we inherently good or evil?

I tend to stick to the notion we're inherently evil. No one has to teach a toddler how to misbehave correct? We lie, cheat, and steal from the time we are capable of doing it.

Posted by George Smiley on Jul-04-2007 12:36:

Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

Posted by Yoepus on Jul-04-2007 16:34:

Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Did Hamas kidnap him?

Not officially and as far as we know, but who really knows who is who there?

I think his point is Hamas could have done what it just did anytime in the past since the journalist was kidnapped (being in defacto control of the Gaza strip) but it chose not to. Its timing seems obvious. But always better late than never.

Posted by Krypton on Jul-04-2007 17:24:

Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Did Hamas kidnap him?

It was Army of Islam. They have released the journalist to Hamas as of yesterday.

Posted by George Smiley on Jul-04-2007 20:00:

Re: Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Not officially and as far as we know, but who really knows who is who there?

I think his point is Hamas could have done what it just did anytime in the past since the journalist was kidnapped (being in defacto control of the Gaza strip) but it chose not to. Its timing seems obvious. But always better late than never.

I'm not going to dismiss the suggestion that Hamas and the Army of Islam may have links or work together because I just don't know (altho I would say that if there were links it'd be all over the media by now)

However, Hamas were not in "de facto control" over Gaza - they have a large support base there and should have been in charge of security for the whole of Palestine but the West and Israel encouraged the Presidency (ie Fatah) to keep hold of security following their election defeat last year. Fatah remained in control of security and the clashes a few weeks ago were against one hugely unpopular Fatah commander named Mohammad Dahlan. He and his militia were the ones in control of security in Gaza, and now Hamas have taken over the job they were elected to do.

Posted by George Smiley on Jul-04-2007 20:09:

Re: Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
It was Army of Islam. They have released the journalist to Hamas as of yesterday.

Yea I know, I was questioning pkcRAISTLIN's assertion that it was actually Hamas...

Posted by Krypton on Jul-04-2007 20:20:

Re: Re: Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Yea I know, I was questioning pkcRAISTLIN's assertion that it was actually Hamas...

Perhaps...

Army of Islam = CIA of Hamas

Posted by Yoepus on Jul-04-2007 20:42:

Re: Re: Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
I'm not going to dismiss the suggestion that Hamas and the Army of Islam may have links or work together because I just don't know (altho I would say that if there were links it'd be all over the media by now)

However, Hamas were not in "de facto control" over Gaza - they have a large support base there and should have been in charge of security for the whole of Palestine but the West and Israel encouraged the Presidency (ie Fatah) to keep hold of security following their election defeat last year. Fatah remained in control of security and the clashes a few weeks ago were against one hugely unpopular Fatah commander named Mohammad Dahlan. He and his militia were the ones in control of security in Gaza, and now Hamas have taken over the job they were elected to do.

Wow.

Posted by George Smiley on Jul-04-2007 21:30:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Wow.

Cheers!

Posted by venomX on Jul-04-2007 21:45:

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
Are we inherently good or evil?

I tend to stick to the notion we're inherently evil. No one has to teach a toddler how to misbehave correct? We lie, cheat, and steal from the time we are capable of doing it.

The reason why toddlers misbehave is a completely different one. Can you say a lion is inherently evil because it kills to eat? You can't because the lion is not a moral agent, hence it can not be good/evil. Children in general, until a certain age, have not yet fully developed morality. You can't say they are inherently evil because they have yet to grasp the concept of right and wrong. People are not inherently evil or good. We are the children of circumstance. Being good or being evil will depend on many factors, the least of which is internal predispositions. If the pope gets pissed he could get into a fight. If the most ruthless of dictators is in a good mood he may be infinitely generous.

Posted by shaolin_Z on Jul-04-2007 21:56:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Cheers!

LOL

Posted by shaolin_Z on Jul-04-2007 21:57:

quote:
Originally posted by venomX
The reason why toddlers misbehave is a completely different one. Can you say a lion is inherently evil because it kills to eat? You can't because the lion is not a moral agent, hence it can not be good/evil. Children in general, until a certain age, have not yet fully developed morality. You can't say they are inherently evil because they have yet to grasp the concept of right and wrong. People are not inherently evil or good. We are the children of circumstance. Being good or being evil will depend on many factors, the least of which is internal predispositions. If the pope gets pissed he could get into a fight. If the most ruthless of dictators is in a good mood he may be infinitely generous.

Yup, agreed. I think it all depends on how one chooses to exert his/her will.

Posted by Krypton on Jul-04-2007 21:59:

quote:
Originally posted by venomX
The reason why toddlers misbehave is a completely different one. Can you say a lion is inherently evil because it kills to eat? You can't because the lion is not a moral agent, hence it can not be good/evil. Children in general, until a certain age, have not yet fully developed morality. You can't say they are inherently evil because they have yet to grasp the concept of right and wrong. People are not inherently evil or good. We are the children of circumstance. Being good or being evil will depend on many factors, the least of which is internal predispositions. If the pope gets pissed he could get into a fight. If the most ruthless of dictators is in a good mood he may be infinitely generous.

So good people don't lie, cheat, and steal? You must be living a dream land. Circumstances mean nothing. Everyone has done something to screw up even as adults.

Posted by shaolin_Z on Jul-04-2007 22:02:

Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
well here's a thought, how bout you stop kidnapping journalists?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast...reut/index.html

nice to see hamas might have finally concluded that too.

Not that it's a good thing, but at least it's not like unofficial IDF protocol:

Were up just promoted from NeoCon propagandist to Zionist?

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Jul-04-2007 22:56:

Re: Re: Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Yea I know, I was questioning pkcRAISTLIN's assertion that it was actually Hamas...

wait a minute mate. i made no such assertion. i just said that hamas might have concluded that (anyone) kidnapping foreign journalists might not be the best idea.

Posted by George Smiley on Jul-04-2007 22:58:

quote:
Originally posted by venomX
Can you say a lion is inherently evil

Yes. Look closely at the following image:

As you can see, the lion to the left of the frame is inherently "evil", but the lion on the right hand side can quite obviously been seen to be inherently "good".

I rest my case.

Posted by George Smiley on Jul-04-2007 23:01:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sick and tired of pro-israeli media?

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
wait a minute mate. i made no such assertion. i just said that hamas might have concluded that (anyone) kidnapping foreign journalists might not be the best idea.

Well that's how it came across. Anyway, it's just a shame Israel hasn't concluded that kidnapping is wrong hey?

Posted by Epicurus on Jul-04-2007 23:06:

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Yes. Look closely at the following image:

As you can see, the lion to the left of the frame is inherently "evil", but the lion on the right hand side can quite obviously been seen to be inherently "good".

I rest my case.

Indeed. The lion on the left, with his darker skin and black mane, looks Middle Eastern, and thus represents evil, as opposed to the one on the right, with his pale skin and blondish mane, typical features of the White Man, represents all that is good in the world

Posted by George Smiley on Jul-04-2007 23:09:

quote:
Originally posted by Epicurus
Indeed. The lion on the left, with his darker skin and black mane, looks Middle Eastern, and thus represents evil, as opposed to the one on the right, with his pale skin and blondish mane, typical features of the White Man, represents all that is good in the world

Exactly!

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Jul-04-2007 23:21:

Posted by George Smiley on Jul-04-2007 23:41:

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
no, the lion on the right is good because he's luke skywalker!

Simba, I am your father!

Posted by Fir3start3r on Jul-04-2007 23:48:

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Jul-04-2007 23:53:

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Simba, I am your father!

haha, im glad someone got it

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