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Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

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A Criminal-Diplomatic Affair // UK Foreign Office Seeks to Punish Russia in Litvinenko Affair The British authorities are treating Russia's refusal to extradite Andrei Lugovoi as a provocation. Yesterday the British Embassy in Moscow told Kommersant that the matter of the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, which until now has been considered a purely criminal case, is now on the level of relations between the two countries' foreign ministries. The British Foreign Office is already drafting a raft of retaliatory measures against Moscow that will soon be presented to the British Parliament for consideration. A Political Matter Instead of a Criminal One A spokesman for the British Embassy in Moscow told Kommersant yesterday that "the Russian authorities' reply to the request to extradite Andrei Lugovoi was negative, and thus it is unacceptable." "Until now we have been saying that this is not political, not related to intelligence, but a purely criminal matter. However, since Russia has not fulfilled the request to extradite Mr. Lugovoi, now the issue will be taken up by the British Foreign Office," he said. This is the first acknowledgement from London that the months-long squabble between Russia and Britain over the matter of the murder of Alexander Litvinenko has turned into a full-scale diplomatic conflict. The British Crown Prosecution Service received a formal reply on Tuesday from the Russian General Prosecutor's Office regarding the extradition of Andrei Lugovoi. That same day, Britain's top prosecutor, Sir Ken Macdonald, went on the record to insist that "the allegation against Mr. Lugovoi is that he murdered a British citizen by deliberate poisoning and that he committed this extraordinarily grave crime here in our capital city. The appropriate venue for his trial is therefore London." Immediately after receiving Moscow's response, the British authorities decided to pull all available political levers to deal with Mr. Lugovoi. "Moscow's refusal to extradite Lugovoi was extremely disappointing, and we deeply regret that Russia has failed to show the necessary level of cooperation in this matter," said a spokesman for British Prime Minister Gordon Brown. "Russia is an important partner on many issues and we continue to seek a constructive relationship with them, but we need to carefully consider our range of cooperation," he said. A spokesperson in the British Foreign Office told Kommersant that the office is already drafting possible responses to Russia's refusal. "From now on, this issue will be dealt with by the Foreign Office. [The Foreign Office] will take the next step in this matter," confirmed the British Embassy's press service in Moscow. A special report from the Foreign Office with proposals regarding the matter of reconsidering the "range of cooperation" between Britain and Russia is due to be presented to the British Parliament within the next few days. The embassy declined to comment on the content of the report: "We are not prepared to discuss the details of possible consequences and the report that the ministry is preparing. We are considering the answer and all subsequent actions carefully and with all due seriousness and attention," said an embassy spokesperson. Moscow's Basmanny Court Instead of London's Old Bailey "We are surprised by the reaction of the British side to the current situation, particularly given that our position accords completely with Russian law; specifically, it complies with Article 61 of the Russian Constitution," said Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin yesterday. The basic argument advanced by the Russian authorities regarding the matter of Andrei Lugovoi is that he is a Russian citizen, and, according to its constitution, Russia does not extradite its citizens. A month ago, Russian President Vladimir Putin even said that the request from British law enforcement authorities to hand over Andrei Lugovoi testifies to their foolishness. Asked by Kommersant how Russia could extradite Mr. Lugovoi without violating its constitution, a spokeswoman at the British Foreign Office replied, "that is the Russian government's problem," noting that Mr. Lugovoi is suspected of committing "an extremely serious crime, as a result of which the lives of hundreds of people were put at risk. This crime cannot be allowed to go unpunished." She also pointed out that all of the evidence and all of the witnesses in the case are in London, and therefore the Foreign Office intends to insist that the trial take place in the British capital. The press service at the Crown Prosecution Service told Kommersant that "the extradition request has not been rescinded, it is still in effect; the British government now has to give a political reply to the Russian prosecutor general's refusal." A spokesman for the service reminded Kommersant about the priority of international over national law and maintained that both Russia and Britain are signatories of the 1957 European Convention on Extradition, on which basis the extradition request was sent. However, Aslan Abashidze, a specialist in international law and a professor at a Moscow university, told Kommersant that "the 1957 European Convention on Extradition says that a citizen of one country can be handed over to another if his guilt has been proven and if the crime that he committed is prosecutable in both countries." He maintained that "it is precisely on the basis of this convention that Russia has asked Britain to extradite Ahmed Zakayev and Boris Berezovsky. Britain has not done so, asserting that there is insufficient evidence of their guilt. Since the UK has not demonstrated goodwill by conscientiously adhering to the convention, on the basis of reciprocity Russia can do the same." According to Mr. Abashidze, Britain cited a London court decision in refusing Russia's request. In the current situation, Russia could declare that the extradition of Andrei Lugovoi is not a matter for the Russian Foreign Ministry or the president to decide and could rely instead, for example, on a decision by some Moscow court. "What's our best region? Basmanny? So, for example, on the basis of a decision by the Basmanny Court," concluded Mr. Abashidze. Mikhail Margelov, the head of the International Affairs Committee in the Russian Federation Council, reminded Kommersant that several years ago, the European Court of Human Rights found Russia guilty of violating its own constitution by handing over one of its own citizens in response to a demand from a court in Turkmenistan. "After the incident with Turkmenistan, we learned a hard lesson and no longer hand over our citizens. That's what they wanted from us � that's exactly how we're behaving," said Mr. Margelov. Observers in the UK believe that the decisive stance of the British government on the issue could be linked to the fact that the country's new prime minister, Gordon Brown, has been in office for all of two weeks and that he wants to demonstrate his effectiveness. "The new government needs to assert itself, to show that it is capable of pursuing its own strong foreign policy," said Lord Robert Skidelsky, an Independent member of the House of Lords who is of Russian descent, in a conversation with Kommersant. "The new minister of foreign affairs needs to affirm his own authority within the country. Such foreign policy statements are most often made for domestic purposes � to make an impression within the country, not outside of it." Britain's new foreign minister, who was appointed just two weeks ago, is David Miliband, a 41-year-old rising star of the Labour Party who is believed by many to be the most likely candidate for the party's next leader and a potential successor to the somewhat charmless Mr. Brown. Mr. Miliband's predecessor as the head of the Foreign Office, Margaret Beckett, is now a Labour member of Parliament. She declined to comment on the situation: a spokesperson in her office told Kommersant that the Foreign Office is expressing the general party line. Over the last two weeks, the popularity of Gordon Brown's new cabinet has soared after its quick and decisive reaction to the terrorist attacks in London and Glasgow. Clearly, Mr. Brown's government is eager to keep up the pace by taking on the Andrei Lugovoi affair with equal vigor. One discussion happening lately in London is whether the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko with polonium should be considered an act of nuclear terrorism. The Crown Prosecution Service, however, told Kommersant that the case does not include any such charges and the Mr. Lugovoi is accused only of murder. However, even if he were facing other charges, the diplomatic stand-off with Moscow would be unaffected, as the UK has not yet ratified the UN convention on the struggle against nuclear terrorism. In any case, that convention came into force only on July 7 of this year, and it cannot be applied retroactively. A War of Words Instead of Prosperity The British newspaper The Times suggested yesterday that London's reaction might be excessively harsh, including as it does the possibility that relations with Moscow could be spoiled on numerous fronts. In Lord Skidelsky's opinion, "Britain never expected that Russia would extradite Lugovoi, just like Russia never seriously expected that Britain would extradite Berezovsky. So all this tumult is largely artificial. I think that all of this current rhetoric needs to be halved. These statements will lead to conversations about new threats, about the next Cold War, and to big headlines in the papers. But I don't think that the consequences will be palpable." The possible hardening of London's stance on Moscow could come as a surprise for some British officials. For example, on Wednesday British Ambassador to Russia Tony Brenton, in a speech in Moscow before Russian graduates of British universities, said that although the political relations between the two countries are difficult, the economic sphere is prospering and nothing is threatening the development of business ties. "If this incident really impacts relations, it will be a catastrophe. Problems may arise with the movement of citizens and money, lines will grow at the consulates. But I hope that the reaction will be rational," said Lord Skidelsky. Nigel Evans, a British parliamentary deputy from the Conservative Party, told Kommersant that the exacerbation of the conflict "will most likely lead only to a war of words." In his opinion, the British authorities should take an interest in improving relations rather than putting them into a deep freeze, because the evolution of events will depend largely on Moscow's reaction. "The Russian authorities have demonstrated complete indifference to this problem. And their refusal is like a wall that cannot be overcome. If [they had] demonstrated readiness to cooperate, that would have diffused the situation," said Mr. Evans, noting that the evolution of events could lead to further deterioration of Russia's reputation in the West. Unusually enough, the Russian Foreign Ministry was extremely cautious in its remarks. Mikhail Kamynin said only that "Russian-British relations are self-sufficient and cannot be turned into a hostage to this kind of problem." The Wax and Wane of Russian-British Relations A Timeline of Events On November 21, 2000, at a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, British Prime Minister Tony Blair promised to be a intermediary between Russia and the US regarding a missile defense system. In February 2001, London took the side of the US on the issue. In August 2001, Rafael Bravo, an employee of the company BAE Systems Avionics, was arrested for spying for Russia. In March 2002, another employee of BAE, Ian Parr, was caught attempting to pass information to Russia about a new missile. On September 12, 2002, a London court denied a Russian request for the extradition of businessman Boris Berezovsky. Similar decisions were made regarding former LogoVAZ CEO Yulia Dubova and Chechen envoy Ahmed Zakayev. On June 7, 2004, the Russian Foreign Ministry announced that the British Council was engaged in commercial activities in Russia and that it could face fines. After the issue was discussed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Blair at the G8 summit in the US on June 10, the complaints were dropped. On March 18, 2005, a London court refused to extradite former Yukos employees Dmitry Maruyev and Natalia Chernysheva, and, on December 23, 2005, a similar request for the extradition of Yukos vice president and deputy managing chairman Alexander Temerko was denied. In August 2005, British sailors participated in the rescue of an AS-28 submarine off the coast of Kamchatka and were rewarded by Vladimir Putin personally. In January 2006, several British diplomats in Moscow were accused of espionage and the illegal financing of non-commercial organizations. In July 2006, British Ambassador to Russia Anthony Brenton attended a forum organized by the opposition coalition The Other Russia, after which the pro-Kremlin youth movement Nashi carried out several protests demanding apologies for the "speech before the fascists." On October 12, 2006, the British Foreign Office included Russia on its list of countries that are human rights violators. On November 23, 2006, Alexander Litvinenko, who had been granted political asylum in the UK, died in London after being poisoned with polonium-210. On May 22, 2007, British prosecutors charged Russian former FSB officer Andrei Lugovoi with Mr. Litvinenko's murder. On June 6, 2007, Tony Blair said that he would not recommend investment in Russia to British companies. On June 16, the British government awarded official honors to a defector named Oleg Gordiyevsky and the judge Timothy Workman, who turned down Russia's extradition request for Boris Berezovsky and Ahmed Zakayev. On June 25, the FSB announced that charges had been filed against the former head of the Russian tax police, Vyacheslav Zharko, who was recruited by British intelligence. On July 5, the Russian General Prosecutor's Office announced (informally) that it would not hand over Mr. Lugovoi. On July 10, the Russian General Prosecutor's Office formally announced its refusal of the British government's request to extradite Mr. Lugovoi. Mikhail Zygar

UK Foreign Office Seeks to Punish Russia in Litvinenko Affair


PLEASE people, explain me one thing, why the British authorities are still covering criminals like Berezovsky and Zakaev on their land???? and f@!king bitching on Russia that they don't to give them Lugovoi?

I don't see any sense !!!

They got nothing on Lugovoi other than speculations. This is purely a political case, and they know in advance that Russians won't break the law and won't extradite him anyway. Just like British will never allow Berezovskiy-the-criminal to be extradited back to Russia. This is a political game, where UK wants to make Russia an enemy.

Oh yeah, almsot forgot about Zakaev ... the criminal who embraced the Beslan bombings and who participated in planning of other attacks on Russian civilians ... but British media portrays Zakaev as a great man fighting for Chechen independence. A former top military official who still claims to be the leader of the Chechen resistance.

Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

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Originally posted by star-traveler PLEASE people, explain me one thing, why the British authorities are still covering criminals like Berezovsky and Zakaev on their land???? and f@!king bitching on Russia that they don't to give them Lugovoi?

Cos we're harder than you and more powerful than you

Hope that cleared things up?

Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Cos we're harder than you and more powerful than you Hope that cleared things up?

Give Russia another 30 years and it will be the other way around ;-)

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Give Russia another 30 years and it will be the other way around ;-)

Well hopefully in 30 years Russia won't be so backwards then we'll have no problem sending Ahmed Zakaev back to you...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well hopefully in 30 years Russia won't be so backwards then we'll have no problem sending Ahmed Zakaev back to you...

Hahaha! Thats the lamest excuse I have ever heard for refusal to extradict Zakayev ... LOL, thats a pathetic excuse. UK is just pissed off that their companies are losing control over Russian resources and Russia in general. Afraid that Russia is becoming more powerful. But then they are double-standarded and demand something they thesmelves refuse to give. So therefore, according to your logic, UK is very backward too ;-)

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Hahaha! Thats the lamest excuse I have ever heard for refusal to extradict Zakayev ... LOL, thats a pathetic excuse. UK is just pissed off that their companies are losing control over Russian resources and Russia in general. Afraid that Russia is becoming more powerful. But then they are double-standarded and demand something they thesmelves refuse to give. So therefore, according to your logic, UK is very backward too ;-)

Yeah what ever bright boy!! Russia is so awesome that is why u live in Canada

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Originally posted by LazFX Yeah what ever bright boy!! Russia is so awesome that is why u live in Canada

Last time I checked, US and Canada are immigrant countries, i.e. everyone was an immigrant at one point, except the natives - the ones who survived all the slaughter and pillaging, disease at the hands of Europeans ;-) go do your homework, bud. But thats not the point here. English politics are bullocks. Many of the people who live on North American continent are formerly (culturally) from UK. So what? North America better than UK, right? What does that have to do with this discussion?

Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Cos we're harder than you and more powerful than you Hope that cleared things up?

Harder? Are you kidding me? Come back when you have Topol-M.

Re: Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

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Originally posted by star-traveler Harder? Are you kidding me? Come back when you have Topol-M.

Yea yea, come back when you have the UK's secret weapon...

Oh and we have enough of our own nuclear weapons to do just as much damage to Russia as Russia could do to the UK (in fact we are just about to update our nuclear arsenal)

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Originally posted by George Smiley Oh and we have enough of our own nuclear weapons to do just as much damage to Russia as Russia could do to the UK (in fact we are just about to update our nuclear arsenal)

HAHAHAHA!!!

'UK nuclear arsenal', that sounds like a typical British joke. Where did you get it? Stole the world's first atomic bomb from the US?

C'mon man, I was at the British science museum in London. The space section of it made me really laugh!!!

I don't deny the UK is a great country. But you just out of the US-Russia's leauge.

ps.
Btw, why do you keep using that silly signature? UK is not a part of Europe, you just a bunch of people living on a separate island, trying to show everybody how cool you are.

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Originally posted by star-traveler HAHAHAHA!!! 'UK nuclear arsenal', that sounds like a typical British joke. Where did you get it? Stole the world's first atomic bomb from the US? C'mon man, I was at the British science museum in London. The space section of it made me really laugh!!! I don't deny the UK is a great country. But you just out of the US-Russia's leauge. ps. Btw, why do you keep using that silly signature? UK is not a part of Europe, you just a bunch of people living on a separate island, trying to show everybody how cool you are.

Yeah, UK doesnt want to be part of EU. UK wants to keep their precious pride and British pound. They dont want to be second. They want to be in charge. They want to have a big voice and some control in EU, and will never ever let anyone tell them what to do.

BTW, UK does have a serious nuclear arsenal, the size of China's and probably in good shape. And a well maintained professional army. But I wouldn't be such a doll and try to brag which country is more powerful, like Smiley did - because for one thing thats not the discussion, and its debatable. Second of all, its silly. Smiley's being a dork.

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Originally posted by star-traveler HAHAHAHA!!! 'UK nuclear arsenal', that sounds like a typical British joke. Where did you get it? Stole the world's first atomic bomb from the US? C'mon man, I was at the British science museum in London. The space section of it made me really laugh!!!

Our space projects now go through the European Space Agency which I should imagine pisses on anything Russia can do at the moment

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I don't deny the UK is a great country. But you just out of the US-Russia's leauge.

But we have more money than you and our military is probably more powerful than Russia's as we spend more on it. In fact, I think you would really struggle to find one factor where Russia out-performs the UK (a fact highlighted by your current location)

And I have no idea how you can compare Russia to America when Russia doesn't even compare to countries like France or Germany any more!

Its 2007 don't you know? Not 1967...

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ps. Btw, why do you keep using that silly signature? UK is not a part of Europe, you just a bunch of people living on a separate island, trying to show everybody how cool you are.

I thought we'd already established that everytime you open your mouth and talk about the EU you're left looking stupid? It has been shown numerous times you have no idea about the EU so in future I suggest you keep your mouth shut about it unless you feel having others label you as stupid would be somehow helpful on a political discussion forum?

HOT NEWS! HOT NEWS! Fresh off the Russian press ...



Brasilian police have issued a warrant with regards into an investigation into money laundering and illegal activites of one of the Brasil's most famous and popular football clubs, San Paulo Corinthians ... one of the 3 PEOPLE the warrant is served to, well ... guess who?

































































Boris Berezovskiy!!! He allegedly embezzelled and laundered money from them! Ha! Nothing new, as he's done the same in Russia (what the Russians want him for):


http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=130015&cid=1#

I seriously tried hard but could not find an English article.
Berezovskiy though IS involved in the club, thats confirmed. Too bad I cant read Portuguese (Brasilian).

Follow ups in the club dealings (hard to find the friggin articles):

http://www.redcafe.net/archive/index.php/t-136316.html

Do a news search for +Joorabchian +Tevez and I'm sure millions of English articles will come up!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Our space projects now go through the European Space Agency which I should imagine pisses on anything Russia can do at the moment

All your's country space projects and the EU ones are on the level of 70s in Russia

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Originally posted by George Smiley But we have more money than you and our military is probably more powerful than Russia's as we spend more on it. In fact, I think you would really struggle to find one factor where Russia out-performs the UK (a fact highlighted by your current location)

Yeah, Russia sucks ass I don't deny it.

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Originally posted by George Smiley I thought we'd already established that everytime you open your mouth and talk about the EU you're left looking stupid? It has been shown numerous times you have no idea about the EU so in future I suggest you keep your mouth shut about it unless you feel having others label you as stupid would be somehow helpful on a political discussion forum?

Relax fella, you need a rest guy.

Ask any European a question, does he think that the UK is a part of Europe. You will get a correct answer in many times

btw, European = Central European, not all those plumbers from Eastern Europe.

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Originally posted by star-traveler All your's country space projects and the EU ones are on the level of 70s in Russia

Which would put them about 20 years in advance of Russia's space programme today...

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Relax pal, you need a rest guy. Ask any European a question, does he think that the UK is a part of Europe. You will get a correct answer in many times btw, European = Central European, not all those plumbers from Eastern European.

You don't know what "Europe" means and you don't know what the "European Union" is and that has been proved many times on this forum. Yet you persist in voicing your idiotic opinions on the matter, each time making you look less and less intelligent. Like I said, having a reputation of being thick isn't going to do you much good on a political discussion forum because nobody will bother to pay you any attention...

Whatever the argument you have, Smiley, the British government is still stupid. While they refuse to hand over proven criminals to Russia, they demand and expect to be approved promto something they dont have any proof or jurisdiction on. So instead of crying and making scenes about it, the British government should just shut up and continue wiggling its tail to the American boys. And Russian space program kicks British one thats for sure (without Russia the whole ISS project is forked, for example).

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Originally posted by George Smiley Which would put them about 20 years in advance of Russia's space programme today...

It seems you didn't understand me properly. What I said is that all the current of developments of the European Space Agency or whatever, Russia already did 30 years ago. There was a drastic slowdown in Russian space industry during the 90s, but it's being recovering since then (btw, thanks to the fact that Britain is buying natural gas from Russia. 3% isn't that big, but we all hope it will increase in the future. Well anyway, you'll have to host polish plumbers somewhere )

Anyway, it's silly to compare these things as I said earlier, 'cause simply it's different leagues.

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Originally posted by George Smiley You don't know what "Europe" means and you don't know what the "European Union" is and that has been proved many times on this forum. Yet you persist in voicing your idiotic opinions on the matter, each time making you look less and less intelligent. Like I said, having a reputation of being thick isn't going to do you much good on a political discussion forum because nobody will bother to pay you any attention...

Relax fella, If you don't want even bother to understand another person's opinion (notice, not biased, 'cause I'm not from the EU or the UK), you could simply reply: fuck off.

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Originally posted by star-traveler Relax fella, If you don't want even bother to understand another person's opinion (notice, not biased, 'cause I'm not from the EU or the UK), you could simply reply: fuck off.

The point is there is no "opinion" on whether the UK is in Europe - it is a fact. Politically, economically and geographically it is in Europe. I have no idea what you are on about when you say it isn't and you've not offered an explanation, you have however offered a "fuck off" which I suppose is just one more on the long list of things you've said to make you look like an idiot...

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Originally posted by George Smiley The point is there is no "opinion" on whether the UK is in Europe - it is a fact. Politically, economically and geographically it is in Europe. I have no idea what you are on about when you say it isn't and you've not offered an explanation, you have however offered a "fuck off" which I suppose is just one more on the long list of things you've said to make you look like an idiot...

Yeah, right. I saw your "opinion" in a second post of this thread.

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Originally posted by star-traveler Yeah, right. I saw your "opinion" in a second post of this thread.

My language might have been inappropriate but that detracts nothing from the fact that what I said was true

And lets not kid ourselves, this thread was a joke from your opening post, did you really expect to have a reasonable debate when you couldn't even make it past the thread title without using insults?

It was never gonna get very far was it? (Like a lot of your threads come to think of it...)

Actually Russian space toilets are very advanced. NASA just bought one the other day.

British Army? pfff....

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