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UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6901346.stm

New Foreign Secretary David Miliband has made one of his first actions since taking the post expelling 4 Russian diplomats in retaliation for Russia refusing to extradite Andrei Lugovoi (who is the chief suspect in murdering British citizen Alexander Litvinenko and endangering the lives of many more British citizens)

Russia will probably do the same shortly.

Looks like things hotting up over this! Russia's been having a bad time of it of late with their relations with EU countries. And everytime Russia has caused bother the EU states have united behind the Russian target (as they have behind Britain in this instance).

I think Putin's suffering from delusions of grandure, someone should tell him the USSR fell apart and Russia's not even in the top 10 richest countries in the world (and has 1/14th the GDP of the EU who by now will be getting more and more pissed off with Russia's conduct and will hopefully act accordingly)

Russia gives me a headache.

Re: UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats

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Originally posted by George Smiley I think Putin's suffering from delusions of grandure, someone should tell him the USSR fell apart and Russia's not even in the top 10 richest countries in the world (and has 1/14th the GDP of the EU who by now will be getting more and more pissed off with Russia's conduct and will hopefully act accordingly)

The problem is that the EU's economies would grind to a halt without that Russian oil. Now that Putin has legalized a Gazprom army to command when he's done his term in office he has gained considerable sway on the world stage.

Re: Re: UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats

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Originally posted by atbell The problem is that the EU's economies would grind to a halt without that Russian oil. Now that Putin has legalized a Gazprom army to command when he's done his term in office he has gained considerable sway on the world stage.

Well it'd fuck their economy up just as much if the Europeans weren't buying it! Plus there are other sources of oil for the EU (it's mainly towards the East of the EU that is supplied by Russia) such as the Middle East (where the UK has major influence right now)

Plus if Russia did cut of Europe's oil supply the retaliatory measures the EU would use on Russia would cripple their economy completely

Russia had alot of oil which right now is required... but... if it continues the way it is it would only take tens of years for Europe to insulate itself from them.

Russia has great gas reserves it isn't the only place the world that has natural gas. Business hates uncertainty and the future of Russia is seriously uncertain!

Re: UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats

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Originally posted by George Smiley http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6901346.stm New Foreign Secretary David Miliband has made one of his first actions since taking the post expelling 4 Russian diplomats in retaliation for Russia refusing to extradite Andrei Lugovoi (who is the chief suspect in murdering British citizen Alexander Litvinenko and endangering the lives of many more British citizens) Russia will probably do the same shortly. Looks like things hotting up over this! Russia's been having a bad time of it of late with their relations with EU countries. And everytime Russia has caused bother the EU states have united behind the Russian target (as they have behind Britain in this instance). I think Putin's suffering from delusions of grandure, someone should tell him the USSR fell apart and Russia's not even in the top 10 richest countries in the world (and has 1/14th the GDP of the EU who by now will be getting more and more pissed off with Russia's conduct and will hopefully act accordingly)

You guys are insane. Screwed in the head. Russia has AWESOME relations with Germany, France, Italy, Finland, etc. but Russia's not the one thats causing havoc here. First: British refuse to hand over proven criminal Berezovsky. Second: UK refuses to provide evidence of Lugovoy's actions in murder of Litvinenko. Third: UK acts as a provocator by stirring up the whole political scandal by expelling Russian diplomats and creating this whole conflict instead of handling like a man and realizing they cant have it their way all the time, especially when they lack the evidence or common sense.

You guys are just trying to make an enemy in Russia. Berezovky and Zakayev are the real criminals who should be tried for crimes in UK, not given asylum. Its really pathetic ...

I want and DEMAND proof of Putin's connections on this crime, and evidence of him going back to Soviet Union, and so on. You guys got nothing. And you guys are looking for a new enemy to fight, new war to stir because you guys are so bored and out of your mind that you need to do something. Thats lame.

Re: Re: Re: UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well it'd fuck their economy up just as much if the Europeans weren't buying it! Plus there are other sources of oil for the EU (it's mainly towards the East of the EU that is supplied by Russia) such as the Middle East (where the UK has major influence right now) Plus if Russia did cut of Europe's oil supply the retaliatory measures the EU would use on Russia would cripple their economy completely

Well, if it wasnt for the contracts we'd fuck your economy too by dealing more with China! But its the EU who puts pressure on Russia to deal less with China because they're afraid China will get too much of Russian oil. Contract is a contract, there's no political aspirations here, and last time I checked, gas contract between EU and Russia it was signed for over 20 years AND at EU's terms, literally GUARANTEEING them with whatever the portion of gas for that term. So shove it. You are acting like a pussy here by stirring up shit thats clearly not happening. Where's the panic where there is no fire?

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Originally posted by Marc Summers Russia gives me a headache.

is it because UK is trying to make enemies with Russia? Seriously, use common sense and tell me what Russia did wrong here ... is it because they followed the laws and didnt hand over their citizen because a) there's no evidence to even extradict him and b) Russian law prohibits extradiction of citizens - so Russia's following the laws and being a democratic country. And then at the same time UK harbours criminals and refuses to hand them over, like Berezovsky, who is not a British ...

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Originally posted by atbell The problem is that the EU's economies would grind to a halt without that Russian oil. Now that Putin has legalized a Gazprom army to command when he's done his term in office he has gained considerable sway on the world stage.

ARMY .... COMMAND .... WORLD STAGE ... pffft, whats wrong with you, people? What about other bigger oil and natural resource corporations like Shell and Exxon Mobil ... dont they have ARMIES, COMMAND, WORLD STAGE, CONTROL, etc BIGGER than that of Russian Gazprom? Dont they have more illegal actions going on in volative places like Middle East? How about being anti-corporate with them, too? How about it, huh? How about dropping your double standard bullshit and coming together with your senses and respecting and treating equal all world's economies and companies who are trying to do what YOUR country's oil and gas companies are trying to do! Just because Gazprom has more gas because nature's luck, there's no need to get jealous and treat ugly because some companies like Shell, Exxon use political and military applications to SEIZE OTHER COUNTRIES' oil and gas ... but thats OK, isnt it? Double standards my ass!

Re: Re: UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats

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Originally posted by Magnetonium You guys are insane. Screwed in the head. Russia has AWESOME relations with Germany, France, Italy, Finland, etc. but Russia's not the one thats causing havoc here.

Awesome relations?

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"We are discussing a conflict situation between the EU and Russia," he said. "Progress given the number of accumulated difficulties is not easy. But when times are tough, you need to talk."

>German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier May 14, 2007<

Just because Total got some rights doesn't mean everything is rosy.

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First: British refuse to hand over proven criminal Berezovsky. Second: UK refuses to provide evidence of Lugovoy's actions in murder of Litvinenko. Third: UK acts as a provocator by stirring up the whole political scandal by expelling Russian diplomats and creating this whole conflict instead of handling like a man and realizing they cant have it their way all the time, especially when they lack the evidence or common sense.

Well which is more serious murder of one of your citizens (there is a trail of evidence... ) or 'corruption' (in Russia... never...). Really since the laws of both countries forbid extradition to one another neither really can follow that path. But the UK wasn't even allowed to talk to Lugovoy. Also the agent used would really only be accessible to a state given the cost.

I mean think about it would Putin protect someone who was talking to a traitor if he hadn't sent him?

Re: Re: UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats

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Originally posted by Magnetonium You guys are insane. Screwed in the head. Russia has AWESOME relations with Germany, France, Italy, Finland, etc. but Russia's not the one thats causing havoc here.

Good for them but they are EU members and they have all backed Britain over the Lugovoi case

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First: British refuse to hand over proven criminal Berezovsky.

And what is the reason that Berezovsky is a "criminal"? Because he accused Putin of being undemocratic openly in the media and in Parliament? Because Putin wanted to take over his media company to shut him up there? Because he openly opposed what Russia was doing in Chechnya? FYI, it is illegal for the UK to extradite anyone who they suspect will face the death penalty or torture and they cannot extradite anyone who may be tried for political crimes (which clearly Berezovsky would). The UK cannot therefore, by law, extradite Berezovsky or Zakayev

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Second: UK refuses to provide evidence of Lugovoy's actions in murder of Litvinenko.

You mean other than traces of polonium found everywhere Lugovoi travelled?

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Third: UK acts as a provocator by stirring up the whole political scandal by expelling Russian diplomats and creating this whole conflict instead of handling like a man and realizing they cant have it their way all the time, especially when they lack the evidence or common sense.

A British citizen was murdered. The murderer put the lives of dozens of other British citizens at risk and you don't think the UK has the right to investigate this murder or try the main suspect? And where do you get this nonsense that there is no evidence from?

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You guys are just trying to make an enemy in Russia. Berezovky and Zakayev are the real criminals who should be tried for crimes in UK, not given asylum. Its really pathetic ...

Unfortunately it is illegal for these two to be extradited to Russia, so it's an irrelevant argument...

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I want and DEMAND proof of Putin's connections on this crime, and evidence of him going back to Soviet Union, and so on. You guys got nothing. And you guys are looking for a new enemy to fight, new war to stir because you guys are so bored and out of your mind that you need to do something. Thats lame.

Is anybody accusing Putin of murdering Litvinenko?

Actually can I ask you a few questions as I find it odd/amusing that someone can be so oblivious to the facts when defending their country as you. You seem to have some kind of warped view of Russia that is completely detached from reality...

1) Did you ever live in Russia?
2) If so, how old were you when you left?
3) And why did you leave Russia?

Re: Re: Re: UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats

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Originally posted by Dervish Awesome relations? >German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier May 14, 2007< Just because Total got some rights doesn't mean everything is rosy. Well which is more serious murder of one of your citizens (there is a trail of evidence... ) or 'corruption' (in Russia... never...). Really since the laws of both countries forbid extradition to one another neither really can follow that path. But the UK wasn't even allowed to talk to Lugovoy. Also the agent used would really only be accessible to a state given the cost. I mean think about it would Putin protect someone who was talking to a traitor if he hadn't sent him?

Was Berezovsky anti-Putin before he was caught embezzling money and laundering? No. He was pro-Putin, but Berezovky gone too far and so then he fled and decided to start the whole campaign. Makes perfect sense! Is Russia allowed to talk to Berezovsky? Hmmmmm ....

Are the relations between USA and EU all peachy and rosy as well (Iraq, Iran, secret CIA prisons, human rights, meat/modified foods bans, etc)? See what I mean? So whats the friggin point? There are no perfect relations, but overall, relations between prolific EU members and Russia are pretty darn good.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Actually can I ask you a few questions as I find it odd/amusing that someone can be so oblivious to the facts when defending their country as you. You seem to have some kind of warped view of Russia that is completely detached from reality... 1) Did you ever live in Russia? 2) If so, how old were you when you left? 3) And why did you leave Russia?

Yes I lived in Russia, for 13 years, and the reasons I left have nothing to do with this discussion or anything related to this whatsoever ... its because of assholes like Berezovsky that my family had to leave Russia ....

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Originally posted by George Smiley Good for them but they are EU members and they have all backed Britain over the Lugovoi case And what is the reason that Berezovsky is a "criminal"? Because he accused Putin of being undemocratic openly in the media and in Parliament? Because Putin wanted to take over his media company to shut him up there? Because he openly opposed what Russia was doing in Chechnya? FYI, it is illegal for the UK to extradite anyone who they suspect will face the death penalty or torture and they cannot extradite anyone who may be tried for political crimes (which clearly Berezovsky would). The UK cannot therefore, by law, extradite Berezovsky or Zakayev

Money laundering and embezzlement are criminal acts, and in today;s Russia they are getting heavy on corruption ... slamming it hard. Right now there's a big scandal in the city of Tver' where half of the city's officials are in court over corruption and money laundering. So you see, Russia's trying to fix some of its problems, and Berezovsky sets examples to these butt-faces criminals to flee the country and claim Putin did this and that, and then call for overthrowing the government ... yes, thats a great way to clear your name.

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You mean other than traces of polonium found everywhere Lugovoi travelled?

Yeah, Lugovoi with his family were present at many of these places ... yeah, he really wanted to kill his own family too, he really was a such a Putin agent ... LOL, rrrright. Its pretty easy for anyone to implant the polonium who has it, but if Lugovoi wanted to kill Berezovsky, he could have done it much earlier, as early as one year before when he was actually in Berezovsky's house in London ... and a poison less formidable and cheaper would've done it. A bullet to the head would been much less prolific. Polonium only makes very few parties evident as participants, like governments, in this case, Russian government would be an obvious choice ... Besides, thats not how anti-government people in Russia die, because thats too expensive and too much trouble and too much ... bullshit.

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A British citizen was murdered. The murderer put the lives of dozens of other British citizens at risk and you don't think the UK has the right to investigate this murder or try the main suspect? And where do you get this nonsense that there is no evidence from?

They should try to prosecute him in Russia. Russian law, just like British forbids extradition of its citizens, so British government should not escalate the situation any further by dismissing the diplomats ... thats clearly British call for a conflict and more tense relations. Seriously, you really expect Putin to break his own constitution in order to fall for this crazy British pressure that is just ridiculous? Its insane if he accepted to break his laws, because THEN even I would call Putin anti-democratic for doing so. And British know it. They're playing a game to pin Putin in the corner to make him an enemy and put him in an awkward situation that he shouldn't even be blamed for in the first place, because the Russian government HAS NO CONNECTION to this crime. So why do British make such an international scuffle out of this? This is only a person-to-person crime, not a government level. This is proposterous. British government and politicians are clearly bent on a confict with Russia, for the reasons that I am still trying to comprehend.

I remember reading that the British office handed over to the Russians a dossier describing the evidence and why Lugovoi should be charged.

Just because this document hasn't been leaked to the media doesn't mean that Britain didn't present it to the Russian officials.

So at least this part of Magnetonium's rant is complete horseshit and I hope we can put it to rest.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd I remember reading that the British office handed over to the Russians a dossier describing the evidence and why Lugovoi should be charged. Just because this document hasn't been leaked to the media doesn't mean that Britain didn't present it to the Russian officials. So at least this part of Magnetonium's rant is complete horseshit and I hope we can put it to rest.

LOL ... yeah ... if the proof was so evident, then the media would be all of it, wouldn't it? We all know what British media is about ... Use common sense, bud. There's no evidence, all speculation. Otherwise Lugovoi would be in Russian jail right now, being prosecuted.

Lemme guess ... the dossier starts like this: "Dear Mr Putin, we believe that Lugovoi took your polonium and sprayed it in Litvinenko's arse ... .... "

No doubt Iraq has cast the UK into a bit of a hole w.r.t. but we are still in the EU.

Also if Berezovsky is wanted on charges in other countries on charges an they are extraction countries (I don't know if they are?) then how come they haven't asked for him to be extradited?

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Originally posted by Dervish No doubt Iraq has cast the UK into a bit of a hole w.r.t. but we are still in the EU. Also if Berezovsky is wanted on charges in other countries on charges an they are extraction countries (I don't know if they are?) then how come they haven't asked for him to be extradited?

OH REALLY???? Gotta love the mostly quiet British media, you've been brainwashed, bud. Lets see what the British government is going to do about THIS:



Berezovsky wanted in Brazil for alleged money laundering


http://www.guardian.co.uk/brazil/st...2126355,00.html

Tom Phillips in Rio de Janeiro and Saeed Shah
Saturday July 14, 2007
The Guardian


The tussle between Britain and Russia over the London-based billionaire tycoon Boris Berezovsky took a new twist yesterday when the Brazilian authorities issued a warrant for his arrest.
Brazilian officials vowed to seek the extradition of Mr Berezovsky from the UK to face charges of money laundering. He is already wanted in Russia, accused of embezzlement.

The Brazilian move comes after the authorities there released the findings of a two-year investigation into a suspected money laundering racket involving the Brazilian football club Corinthians, which was effectively bought by a company linked to Mr Berezovsky in 2004. Brazilian prosecutors argue that Media Sports Investments (MSI), the subsidiary of an offshore company that formed a "partnership" with Corinthians in November 2004, is funded with the profits from organised crime in Russia.


Article continues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Brazil on Thursday, Judge Fausto Martin de Sanctis ordered the arrest of Mr Berezovsky and two other men, including the Iranian businessman Kia Joorabchian, who controls MSI in Brazil, which is accused of laundering Mr Berezovsky's money through the Corinthians team. Since none of the men was in Brazil, arrest warrants were forwarded to Interpol. The lawyer behind the federal investigation, Rodrigo de Grandis, told the Guardian that if the men tried to enter Brazil they would be arrested immediately. Officials from Brazil's public prosecutor admitted yesterday, however, they were not hopeful that Mr Berezovsky could be extradited.
Mr Berezovsky said the Brazilian court order was "an extension of the Kremlin's politicised campaign against me". The tycoon fell out with Russian leader Vladimir Putin and left the country in 2000. He has since been charged with embezzling millions of dollars from Russia's flagship airline, Aeroflot. This week, a trial in Russia started in the Aeroflot case, in Mr Berezovsky's absence.

The tycoon also faces potential prosecution in Russia over alleged calls for the government's overthrow, stemming from an interview he gave earlier this year to the Guardian. Britain, which granted him asylum in 2003, has repeatedly refused Russian requests for extradition.

Last year, Mr Berezovsky was detained and interrogated at Sao Paulo's international airport as he tried to embark for London. He was released without charge.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium OH REALLY???? Gotta love the mostly quiet British media, you've been brainwashed, bud.

He then goes on to "prove" his point by quoting an article from one of the most popular British newspapers...you couldn't make it up could you?!

Well you kinda answered your own question he's being extradited.... (so long as that fits in with the law). Whats the problem? He can't be extradited to Russia because it's against the law.

EDIT: posted in responce

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Originally posted by Dervish Well you kinda answered your own question he's being extradited.... (so long as that fits in with the law). Whats the problem? He can't be extradited to Russia because it's against the law.

And he cant be trasfered to Brazil because that will be a political defeat to UK. And Russians cant transfer Lugovoi because of two reasons - Constitution and lack of evidence. So why then would British politicians create a conflict by kicking Russian diplomats out of the country? Where's the logic? What is this going to achieve, tell me? Putin will be very happy and will break his Constitution? Seriously, man, try to understand what I am trying to say ... Russia's not the one causing havoc here.

To explain what I mean, if he is extradited then that shows that the UK is observing law and doesn't have some 'unknown' reason for keeping him aside from the law of the land (you prejudging that he won't be extradited). Remember the UK police firstly only wanted to talk to Andrei Lugovoi which was not allowed.

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Originally posted by Dervish To explain what I mean, if he is extradited then that shows that the UK is observing law and doesn't have some 'unknown' reason for keeping him aside from the law of the land (you prejudging that he won't be extradited). Remember the UK police firstly only wanted to talk to Andrei Lugovoi which was not allowed.

Hahaha ... British police TALKED to Lugovoi for long periods of time WHILE he was in UK, literally interrogating him ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6679853.stm

Mr Lugovoi has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing, suggesting that someone has been trying to frame him.

He underwent medical checks in hospital after traces of polonium-210 were reportedly found in his body.

He has also been questioned by Russian and British detectives in December as a witness.

Mr Lugovoi said he met Mr Litvinenko 10 years ago, but was not a friend or business partner.

He said his security work brought him into contact with Mr Berezovsky, who also knew Mr Litvinenko.


OH, and by the way ... HOW THE HELL DID LUGOVOI's alleged polonium ended up at British Embassy in Moscow? Hmmm ... the trail ... to Putin .... hmmmmm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6215168.stm


Yeah, the Russian government will clearly do all this to make itself so bloody obvious as a participant.

Gotta go to bed but I'll chat more on this later.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Russians cant transfer Lugovoi because of two reasons - Constitution and lack of evidence.

As I'm no expert on Russian law, perhaps you could tell me what the Constitution says that prevents Lugovoi being extradited to Britain to face criminal charges? As for the second reason, well that's just not true is it? The article you quote below says the Crown Prosecution Service has enough evidence to charge him with murder, so what exactly is your problem?

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So why then would British politicians create a conflict by kicking Russian diplomats out of the country? Where's the logic? What is this going to achieve, tell me? Putin will be very happy and will break his Constitution? Seriously, man, try to understand what I am trying to say ... Russia's not the one causing havoc here.

It is a tactic in diplomacy which means "we mean business"

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Originally posted by George Smiley As I'm no expert on Russian law, perhaps you could tell me what the Constitution says that prevents Lugovoi being extradited to Britain to face criminal charges? As for the second reason, well that's just not true is it? The article you quote below says the Crown Prosecution Service has enough evidence to charge him with murder, so what exactly is your problem? It is a tactic in diplomacy which means "we mean business"

OK, so lets say British do have the proof, then they should then try to prosecute Lugovoi in Russia, which they HAVE ALREADY REFUSED TO DO. So that doesnt leave us with much, does it?

Russian Constitution, clearly specifies that no Russian national can be extradited abroad. Just like UK's. Just like the European Convention specifies. Its pretty dam obvious and old law. UK knows it. But they are playing a political game here.

But British dont want to pursue this case in Russia, because they want to play a political game with a certain conviction in UK, then to bring their weak evidence to Russia and know they won't be able to have a media frenzy on the same level.

If they had the clear evidence, then they would have "leaked" it to the media already, they're not talking about, so its pretty dam weak. Thats why they refuse to go to court in Russia.

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Originally posted by George Smiley It is a tactic in diplomacy which means "we mean business"

No, its a tactic called "F*ck you, Russian government" while the Russian government has nothing to do here. Constitution is Constitution that Putin SWORE to protect, and this is merely a businessman-to-businessman dispute that should have been handled in a smaller court with lesser media frenzy, but we all know who started the frenzy here and the point of it ... and somehow involved the Russian government, too ... you know that the Russian government cant extradite its citizens, WHY OH WHY THEN DO YOU create this political havoc? Seriously, are you that naive to believe that it will work?

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