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Later days of the Cold War

I am just starting to do some research for the time period toward the end of the Cold War, and I wanted to get some information on the following topic so I can decide where to go next.

I would like to know how each of the following countries felt about both the US and USSR and their place in the world (power) during the 80's.

England
East and West Germany
Italy
Canada

Thank you for any help you can provide.

Mate, I don't think you're gonna get a good mark on your homework if you're gonna base it on the opinions of TAs! (Most of whom were probably too young in the 80s to give you a proper answer and not some bullshit they've just invented in their heads!)

Saying that, considering the fact that you think there is a country called England, maybe asking other people to do your homework ain't such a bad idea!

(there has not been a country called England for over 300 years!!)

UK sorry. This isn't for homework. I simply am trying to get a start on some research, and it doesn't hurt to get a broad overview before attacking specific topics.

And the whole 80's point is completely moot.

Erm well unless you wanna be a bit more specific about what information you're looking for I'll put forward the following summary:

On American power in the world:
England - Good
West Germany - Good
East Germany - Bad
Italy - Good
Canada - Good

On Russia power in the world:
England - Bad
West Germany - Bad
East Germany - Good
Italy - Bad
Canada - Bad

(Like I said, you might wanna be a bit more specific over what you're looking for! )

Sorry about that, I appreciate the effort. To be more specific, I'm researching Chernobyl and what countries would have thought about USSR before and immediately after.

I'm interested in it because obviously fallout reached far beyond Soviet borders and countries that may have harbored ill feelings toward the Soviets before the accident would surely have been calling for the heads of Soviet leaders.

Plus, the failed cover up and ensuing silence from the Kremlin after the incident probably didn't go to far in winning sympathy.

I'm curious to see what the rest of the world thought as the super powers of the US and USSR were clashing in the cold war. Was there the same kind of disdain for both countries flexing their muscles, as there has been in recent times for the US?

Thanks

Well, I can honestly say I have no idea whatsoever!

I think there are some radioactive sheep somewhere in Scotland tho due to Chernobyl...

On whether or not there was the same level of disdain for the super powers as there is today against America, I'd probably say yes to an extent. I guess the same type of people that are opposed to the US today (ie anti-war/globalisation/anarchists/etc) were around back then, maybe in greater numbers due to the popularity of socialism, especially amongst the universities (maybe more in Europe than in the US?) and student activism was pretty high, compared with today. There were also Marxist terrorist groups operating from most European countries that opposed the US and received support from the USSR (which were probably popular amongst the leftist students). Then there were all the Vietnam protests which were pretty anti-American (altho I'm not sure if you mean attitudes during the Cold War or after Chernobyl or whether they changed as a result of Chernobyl?)

On the other side, I would imagine a large proportion of Americans hated the USSR/Communism as much as they hate Muslims today!

ps. the above are assumptions, I don't really think you'll find what you're looking for from TA members (and I'd be suspicious of the information given to you by someone who wasn't around at the time, or old enough at the time) You might be better off asking your parents or better yet your history teacher (or someone similar)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Erm well unless you wanna be a bit more specific about what information you're looking for I'll put forward the following summary: On American power in the world: England - Good West Germany - Good East Germany - Bad Italy - Good Canada - Good On Russia power in the world: England - Bad West Germany - Bad East Germany - Good Italy - Bad Canada - Bad (Like I said, you might wanna be a bit more specific over what you're looking for! )

Thats just your opinion. If you ask the world, they would mostly add USA and UK to their hate list, and I am not being biased here like you are. Plus I am in Canada, and we are far more friendlier to Russia than UK or USA ever was.

One thing for a fact though, I've been to East Germany, and I did comprehensive reading on the situation there during and after Soviet Union's demise. East Germany was actually one of the most developed and successful states of the Eastern Bloc, politically, socially and economically. In fact, Soviet Union actually owed money to them. Once Germanies united, there was a massive decline in East Germany, primarily in industrial sectors, and military production. As a result, a lot of people lost jobs, and the Eastern system was dropped in haste in favour of the western one, and a lot of people became worse-off as a result, at least temporarily, and the Western Germany was the greater beneficiary (cheaper labour in East Germany and more business expansion possibilities). Standars of living in East Germany dropped, and even today a considerable number of East Germans have good thoughts about their former state (I forgot the numbers and dont have the link, but I am sure it was at least 25% of East Germans who miss their communist era)

I'm actually about to start reading The Legacy of Chernobyl which from what I gather is the definitive book on this topic. But, Magnetonium, you bring up some interesting points about East Germany that I was not aware of. If Russia owed them money during this period, and perhaps they were experiencing more success, how did they feel about Russia? Could they have seen it as a weight in their allegiance or was it something different?

Well, Canada sold Soviet Union a lot of Canadian wheat. Plus Trudeau did his best to scale down Canadian involvement in NATO in Europe.

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings I'm actually about to start reading The Legacy of Chernobyl which from what I gather is the definitive book on this topic. But, Magnetonium, you bring up some interesting points about East Germany that I was not aware of. If Russia owed them money during this period, and perhaps they were experiencing more success, how did they feel about Russia? Could they have seen it as a weight in their allegiance or was it something different?

When you say "they", do you mean the attitudes of governments or attitudes of the general public? If you're talking about the attitudes of governments then fine, shouldn't be too hard to find out about or for anyone to comment on. If you're talking about the attitudes of the public, then I don't think anyone on here is in any position to comment, myself included, as we simply were either not around at the time or too young to have had any valid opinion on it. (Maybe Firestarter cos he's old!)

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Thats just your opinion. If you ask the world, they would mostly add USA and UK to their hate list, and I am not being biased here like you are. Plus I am in Canada, and we are far more friendlier to Russia than UK or USA ever was.

We're talking about attitudes during the Cold War, not now. On a governmental level, the NATO countries would have supported America and the Warsaw Pact countries supported the USSR (but not the populations of Eastern Europe, they were against the Soviets). Plus then you have the affiliations around the world, those wanting socialism like the Arab states for example, would support Russia. Those wanting rid of Russian influence would have supported America if not already in NATO.

As for the public, well who knows, probably a good mix of opinions (unless they were being directly oppressed by the Soviets!)

quote:

One thing for a fact though, I've been to East Germany, and I did comprehensive reading on the situation there during and after Soviet Union's demise. East Germany was actually one of the most developed and successful states of the Eastern Bloc, politically, socially and economically. In fact, Soviet Union actually owed money to them. Once Germanies united, there was a massive decline in East Germany, primarily in industrial sectors, and military production. As a result, a lot of people lost jobs, and the Eastern system was dropped in haste in favour of the western one, and a lot of people became worse-off as a result, at least temporarily, and the Western Germany was the greater beneficiary (cheaper labour in East Germany and more business expansion possibilities). Standars of living in East Germany dropped, and even today a considerable number of East Germans have good thoughts about their former state (I forgot the numbers and dont have the link, but I am sure it was at least 25% of East Germans who miss their communist era)

When you say "comprehensive" reading, what do you mean? I was under the impression that German reunification caused economic decline because East Germany was already so poor and dragged West Germany down with it. As for 25% missing the Communist (capital "C" please) era, well that must be everyone who was on the payroll of the Stasi! East Germans were the most spied upon people in the world and iirc had the greatest proportion of collaberators to population!

But a yearning for the Communist past is something a lot of eastern Europeans seem to want. Under Communism there was no crime and minimal unemployment. When they changed to a capitalist economic system, unemployment went up and crime shot up, so don't blame em really for thinking life might be better under the USSR - says a lot about our economic system really when people would prefer to live in a dictatorship!!

Well, George, one thing I gotta tell you ... I really really hate communism very much and I refuse to capitalize it. I hate communism much more than I hate capitalism.

EDIT:

About Chernobyl ... a good read, further shows how human error and more importantly communist bureaucracy (communist party have tried to cover it up and be quiet for as long as it could) can create such a long-term disaster for people, and noone would know about it until a large area was contaminated and many people became disabled. The party rushed helpless troops with little or no protection against radiation to cement the reactors, and many soldiers later died of ratiation related deaths - and the work to liquidate the problem was poorly done (because of hasty plans and designs) and today the sarcophagus is falling apart, causing further fears. Communist party suppressed scientists and other prominent people from talking about the situation, refused to listen to plans to properly close the reactor, plans to adequately deal with the situation were ignored, etc. And imagine, all of this was under Gorbachev, the so-called hero hailed by the West ... human life wass worthless in Soviet Union. Today, the demographic issues are changing that, for the better.

I think Canada has very good relations with Russia. I never read any Russophobic articles on Russia EVER in any newspapers here. Surely there are articles that make Russia look like a really sad, dying country, but its not politicized campaigning. Putin himself has flown to Canada as one of his first state visits to a foreign country when he came to power. Both countries have great plans for business and commerce, there was Canadian business in my city of Sochi, Russia as well. Trade is very small, but there's a great project being carried out with a joint Canada-Russia design to build special processing stations in Russia to liquify natural gas and ship it in huge tankers to Canada, and Canada can then use it or sell it to others for higher price ;-) from what I've heard, Canadians are getting a good deal in this project.

Being an "older" TA, living through the cold war and the Bay of Pigs standoff (which I think was really the starting point of the cold war) I can say that I believe that even though there was a nuclear standoff, the world was a little less chaotic.

I was taught Russian stereotypes, in school, because there was not any exchange of information through the "Iron Curtain". Now, I think Russians are almost more capitalistic (opportunistic?) than Americans.


Russians still drink more than Americans...Right?

quote:

Originally posted by zookeeper Being an "older" TA, living through the cold war and the Bay of Pigs standoff (which I think was really the starting point of the cold war) I can say that I believe that even though there was a nuclear standoff, the world was a little less chaotic. I was taught Russian stereotypes, in school, because there was not any exchange of information through the "Iron Curtain". Now, I think Russians are almost more capitalistic (opportunistic?) than Americans. Russians still drink more than Americans...Right?

Russians drink too much ... they're killing themselves off, sadly ... population is plummeting. Surely they have embraced wildly the market principles, and the world's biggest ever privatization program began in 1990s with disasterous results (at least 60 percent of country owned by mafia) but the corruption and crime is quite rampant in places, because of strong mafia. Berezovsky was a mafia man, too ... he was accused of many things, and many of the reporters who did so are dead now. Every week I read articles on new and new corruption charges, mafia guys getting caught, more "businessmen" and business-related politicians shot ... murder is business. Many Russians were happy to see Putin do something about it, to strike fear into the people who thought they can do anything they want. Some criminals, like Berezovsky, fled the country, others were jailed, others just changed suits and company names. Its going to be a long long way to curb just the corruption alone ... because many of the people involved are former experts in the field who were fired by the Soviet government (ex. KGB, military, doctors, etc.) or who lost jobs, but found more profitable illegal ways to make money. I can talk hours about the different scemes used, different fields, people involved, problems posed ... but the Russian government every year misses out on MANY BILLIONS of revenue dollars because of under-the-table paychecks, corruption, money laundering, crime, illegal immigration. Many people who face the problems just turn to drugs, alcohol, tobacco and kill themselves away.

Communism is the disease that is killing Russian culture, communists have broken up, humiliated, castrated and abused Russian culture - by destroying its culture, religion (which was throughout history the backbone of the strength and pride of us), wiping out millions of Cossacks who were traditionally the guards of Russian frontiers, forcing out and repopulating in different places ethnic minorities and fucking around with their borders, often mixing borders around with their enemies - which had a direct backlash in 1990s; wiping out in 70s years of communist rule many intellectuals, democrats, fair and well-educated politicians and innovators, generals and instead bringing to power the most corrupt, dumb, ignorant and heartless criminals to power - etc. etc. - these and more evils that the communists have done has had a very terrible devastating effect on Russia, that will take MANY MANY generations to fix. In the most optimistic prediction, I can say that even though Russian population right now is about 142+ million, because of massive demographic losses by 2050 it will be 120 million (I am being positive, some Russian scientists predict it will be 100 million). Imagine that now there are less children, and more older people in Russia, and the gap is growing ... by the time these children reach adulthood, their low numbers are going to have severe effect on Russian economy ... there will not be enough to drive the economy. Current generation of young married people in Russia are from the big 1980s boom, and since then it was a large decline in births. When the 20s age wave will hit Russia in 15 years, it will have a very sour effect ...

And that is why I am for a stronger but democratic government in Russia like Putin's, because another Yeltsin will definitely drive the country into a grave. We need to do some major cleaning up in Russia. The country is bleeding ... literally. The West has done nothing. Only the Russian people themselves can do something. We need a STRONG leader. But the Westenr bureaucrats dont want a strong Russian leader. They have been happily watching since 1991 how we are fucking killing each other, drinking to death and giving away our resources ... and when things started to change for the better for the Russian people, thats when in the West it was portrayed as an attack on democracy ... I mean, how can there be democracy in Russia if there isn't a strong leader to enforce it? Yeltsin couldn't give a shit and two fucks about democracy. I've seen it. In the West Yeltsin was portrayed as a great democratic leader bla bla bla bla ... He didnt run the country at all. The Constitution was there, for a show, and noone dared to raise a voice and claim HEY, MY RIGHTS ARE PROTECTED BY THE CONSTITUTION, because mafia would put a bullet in your head like many journalists/politicians in 1990s did. It was the law of the land, the mafia law. It was terrible ... there was absolutely no future. 1990s were the Russian Dark Ages ...

EDIT:
And that is pretty much the situation in many former Eastern bloc countries at the end of the Cold War, except for the Baltic states and countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia who took on a EU-style economic approach and succeeded. Yeltsin and his mafia were still living in the communist days, drinking, partying, selling the country away , etc.


Belarus is a different story, but topic for a different time ... their case is unique.

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