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Tillman's Death -
As a vet of the arm forces, this whole story is starting to really upset me.
and to think, this guy did the bravest thing in the world. left behind a career in the NFL and look what that choice has made his legacy become.
Tillman was the shit.
much respects
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| AP: New details on Tillman's death By MARTHA MENDOZA, AP National Writer Fri Jul 27, 1:48 AM ET Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press. "The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators. The doctors � whose names were blacked out � said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away. Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident. The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request. Among other information contained in the documents: � In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling." � Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments. � The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions. � No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene � no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck. The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers. With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week. The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public. In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something. At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem." Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week. "Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said. The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case. "He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified. Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along. "Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott. Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental. Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked. The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments. It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again. But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed. The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..." ___ Associated Press reporters Scott Lindlaw in Las Vegas and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this story. |
being a US Army Vet also, this disgusts me too.
the 75 Ranger Regiment is an extremely Honorable unit.
if were left up to USASOC chain of command this would not have happened.
the reason it was done is because of the bad press that would come of it, and it happened right after the whole Abu Ghirab prison scandal.
CPL Tillman was already a hero, and a friendly-fire incident as his cause of death was a public relations nightmare.
so they lied, and tried to spin it in a favorable light- which worked for a while.
but of course, the truth came out- and now it is much worse.
honesty is the best policy.
Sua Sponte
Not only did they lie to spin the story but the Bush administration is claiming "executive priviledge" to withhold documents on this of all things.
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White House, Pentagon cite executive privilege to hold up documents on friendly fire victim Tillman Michael Roston Published: Friday July 13, 2007 Print This Email This Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) revealed on Friday afternoon that the White House and Pentagon were holding up a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee investigation into the friendly fire death of former professional football player and Army Corporal Patrick Tillman. "[T]he Committee wrote to White House Counsel Fred Fielding seeking 'all documents received or generated by any official in the Executive Office of the President' relating to Corporal Tillman's death," noted a press release from the Committee. But the White House has apparently again invoked its executive privilege to hold up the documents sought by Waxman and Ranking Minority member Tom Davis (R-VA). "The White House Counsel's office responded that it would not provide the Committee with documents that 'implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests' and produced only two communications with the officials in the Defense Department, one of which was a package of news clippings," the Committe noted. "The response of the Defense Department to the Committee's inquiry was also deficient." In their letter to Fielding, Waxman and Davis doubted that the two documents were the limits of White House-Pentagon communication over Tillman's death. "It is difficult to believe that these are the only communications that White House officials had with the Department of Defense between April 22,2004, the day Corporal Tillman died, and May 29, 2004, the day the Bush Administration publicly announced that Corporal Tillman's death was a result of fratricide," they wrote. They also explained what they believed was at stake in this probe. "These questions have implications for the credibility of the information coming from the battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan and raise significant policy issues about how to prevent the future dissemination of untrue information," Waxman and Davis wrote to Fielding. "They also have a profound personal impact on the Tillman family. It is for these reasons that the Committee requested documents from the White House." The Committee said that it expected a response to the Friday letter by July 25. Waxman also scheduled an additional hearing on the announcement of Tillman's death for Aug. 1. Full information can be found at the Committee's website http://rawstory.com/news/2007/White...ments_0713.html |
Sounds like the guy might have been a real asshole, and that's never good when you're surrounded by people with really big guns.
Though, no matter how much of an asshole someone might be, that's not an excuse to shoot them in the head... to think that someone would kill their own comrade, that's pretty low.
I'm sick of this bs cover up shit by various levels of US govt.
Pat Tillman was an extraordinary man.
Though I'd be interested to know what did he do to be hated so much by his squadmates.
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| Originally posted by occrider Not only did they lie to spin the story but the Bush administration is claiming "executive priviledge" to withhold documents on this of all things. The audacity of this administration is phenominally unreal. Way to support the troops and their families! |
Re: Tillman's Death -
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| Originally posted by LazFX Tillman was the shit. much respects |
Re: Re: Tillman's Death -
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| Originally posted by EvilTree That's some ugly beret though |
Re: Re: Re: Tillman's Death -
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| Originally posted by VAR yeah, i remember the fight to change the Ranger beret from black to tan, and it wasn't pretty. in certain mixed units, you could wear either a green beret (SF qualified), or a black beret (Ranger qualified), if you were a "triple-tabber" (Special Forces qualified, Ranger qualified, and Airborne, of course), it was up to you- most wore which they wanted- though some just wore a patrol cap with cat-eyes on it- berets are the worst headgear known. this being said, giving the black beret to the regular army was tough for many that had earned it. |
this is gayhomofag
excuse my ignorance, but couldn't ballistics tell who shot tillman and then we'd have someone to question regarding his death?
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| Originally posted by Q5echo let me guess. you where a beret? look at the post above mine previous. now unless that image in my previous post is you, best move your ass on dude. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN excuse my ignorance, but couldn't ballistics tell who shot tillman and then we'd have someone to question regarding his death? |
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| Originally posted by DJ Shibby lol, you seem to have an inflated faith in human efficiency. don't worry, it's cute. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN honestly tho, how hard could it have been? theres only so many around him at his time of death. surely it couldnt have been that hard? |
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| Originally posted by DJ Shibby true. A friend of mine who was out in iraq got an honorable discharge and they gave him 50 grand cash in the pocket. As long as he didn't ever say what happened over there. I'm not sure, even an inkling, to this day why they would give him 50 grand and tell him to keep his mouth shut... but maybe he shot tillman in the face. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN excuse my ignorance, but couldn't ballistics tell who shot tillman and then we'd have someone to question regarding his death? |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so, whats your answer to my question Q5. you have the experience in this kind of stuff |
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| Originally posted by Q5echo no i don't. i do know that you need bullets in order to determine ballistics conclusively. as far as i know there are none. the bullets are long gone. however, hasn't it been established that they were 5.56mm rounds fired at close proximity? the question then becomes, how close exactly? that would narrow speculation between malice (murder) and friendly fire (manslaughter). that aspect can be determined roughly without ballistics. it then becomes a question of testimony and corroberation and who do you believe. the Army obviously believed one scenario over another based on eyewitness testimony. reasons escape me as to why the Army would go risk so much, so openly and so far as to protect one shooter from murder charges over Pat Tillman if indeed they found him to be murdered on that battlefield think about it. if the Army knew he was murdered, what do you think the Army would cop to first? something they could control like a friendly fire incident or something they couldn't control like a random beef on the battlefield resulting in murder? pretty clear to me. |
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| Originally posted by DJ Shibby Mid-2004... Anything is possible, its all just speculation. Perhaps he was seen as a perfect hero to galvanize the people into the war movement, and his death was mandated? Can't really know for sure. :shrug: |
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| Originally posted by Q5echo alright. well, thats enough from you then |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yeah, seriously shibby. that's just nonsense. |
Uhhh why are we dodging the real issue here? Who gives a fuck whether Tillman was killed by legitimate friendly fire or murder? The real issue is that we have an executive branch that is covering up their role in the entire affair:
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| [T]he Committee wrote to White House Counsel Fred Fielding seeking 'all documents received or generated by any official in the Executive Office of the President' relating to Corporal Tillman's death," noted a press release from the Committee. But the White House has apparently again invoked its executive privilege to hold up the documents sought by Waxman and Ranking Minority member Tom Davis (R-VA). "The White House Counsel's office responded that it would not provide the Committee with documents that 'implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests' and produced only two communications with the officials in the Defense Department, one of which was a package of news clippings," the Committe noted. "The response of the Defense Department to the Committee's inquiry was also deficient." |
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| Originally posted by occrider Uhhh why are we dodging the real issue here? Who gives a fuck whether Tillman was killed by legitimate friendly fire or murder? The real issue is that we have an executive branch that is covering up their role in the entire affair: Ummm excuse me but is the white house so intricately involved in the deaths of every other American serviceman? Or is the whitehouse deliberately misleading the american public by falsifying the facts??? WHY THE NEED FOR EXECUTIVE PRIVILEDGE??? |
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| Originally posted by Q5echo because everyone involved has testified under oath more than enough times in the seven investigations regarding this matter. |
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| Kessinger did everything he could, including lie, to make sure it did not get above him. Executive Priviledge is NOT the real issue here. |
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| if you can't implicate the top man (Rumsfeld) then there is no need to pursue violating executive priviledge |
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| other than to put the President in a position to refuse it and subsequently embarass him. which is exactly what Waxman is doing. |
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