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on freedom

from the prophet

quote:

And an orator said, "Speak to us of Freedom." And he answered: At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom, Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them. Aye, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff. And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment. You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief, But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound. And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour? In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle your eyes. And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free? If it is an unjust law you would abolish, that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead. You cannot erase it by burning your law books nor by washing the foreheads of your judges, though you pour the sea upon them. And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed. For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud, but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their own pride? And if it is a care you would cast off, that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you. And if it is a fear you would dispel, the seat of that fear is in your heart and not in the hand of the feared. Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded, the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape. These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling. And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light. And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom.

Hope you guys don't mind me sharing these little tidbits.

ver�bose Pronunciation[ver-bohs]
�adjective characterized by the use of many or too many words; wordy: a verbose report.


[Origin: 1665�75; < L verb�sus, equiv. to verb(um) word + -�sus -ose1]

pkcRAISTLIN, it's not verbose, it's a poetic masterpiece. But if you aren't inclined towards renowned literature, philosophy, anything aesthetic, I understand your perspective. I think.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred pkcRAISTLIN, it's not verbose, it's a poetic masterpiece. But if you aren't inclined towards renowned literature, philosophy, anything aesthetic, I understand your perspective. I think.

im not saying its not poetic. but these generic political diatribes (regardless of how poetic they may be) really don't add very much to political discourse imo. a proper article with references to the particular problem is far more powerful. again, imo.

its far easier to lament (in this case) political and social freedoms than it is to engage a topic and provide relevant, and realistic alternatives.

most philosophy just isnt my cup of tea i suppose.

I agree, alas, that it isn't relevant to politics. It's beyond it, imo, and should have probly been posted in the COR forum. Ah well...

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ver�bose Pronunciation[ver-bohs] �adjective characterized by the use of many or too many words; wordy: a verbose report. [Origin: 1665�75; < L verb�sus, equiv. to verb(um) word + -�sus -ose1]

Hmm... it's a shame that you missed the point because of your lack of subjective empathy, and poor lexicon.

Cheers though, to each our own... we're all learning and living, and it's easy to forget that everyone does not speak exactly like us or conform exactly to our specificalities.

Especially if they'd written something a hundred years before, or a thousand years before, perhaps even on foreign soils. And yet, it turns out, soil is soil, and the human conundrum is omnipresent.

I know it's out of the ordinary, and that's how things should be. The systems of redundance should occassionally be shaken by something new and intriguing, whatever that may be.

The irony being that there is most likely a piece of your consciousness crafted within this brilliant man's memetic legacy.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred I agree, alas, that it isn't relevant to politics. It's beyond it, imo, and should have probly been posted in the COR forum. Ah well...

N-Not relevant to politics??

Oi vey, oi vey...

It's the source, man. It's the source.

Usspakotec please, for it's beyond all politics in my eyes. Just like Siddhartha is generally above religion, as it were. I'm not the least surprised at the lack of individual replies. Gibran was a Romantic in the utmost sense of the term. An idealist, a visionary, like many another. It's beautiful and utopian, whilst politics have always been real and, not surprisingly, pleased some and more than displeased others.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred Usspakotec please, for it's beyond all politics in my eyes. Just like Siddhartha is generally above religion, as it were. I'm not the least surprised at the lack of individual replies. Gibran was a Romantic in the utmost sense of the term. An idealist, a visionary, like many another. It's beautiful and utopian, whilst politics have always been real and, not surprisingly, pleased some and more than displeased others.

Bam! Nyorai.

That's the word. UP!

I suppose in a way I'm an idealist, though I ground myself in realism. We love to cling to what could provide comfort and stability; and the matter of understanding that what is real could be anything at all, is dangerous.

Therein lies the unfettering of the chains, and therein lies the birth of freedom.

It IS individual, in every way. And as such, beautiful and world-changing by its very nature.

keep being free,

peace

My best wishes to you, Shibby. The notion of freedom for me has never altogether crystallized, much like the subject of love, and I think both are beyond comprehension when all is said and done. Suffice it to say it's not easy to unshackle the fetters of the soul, but if I may content myself with brief flights into the infinite, as transient as they are wont to be, I should only be so fortunate.

And for some food for thought I'd swallowed some years ago,

"Only what is indifferent and detached is free."

P.S. I'll be toking soon and would love to philosophize and chat about all sorts of things if you're interested and are keeping the keyboard handy. I've only Windows Messenger on this comp, feel free to PM me your nick if you're bored.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby from the prophet

From the translator:

quote:

At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom, Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them. Aye, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff. And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment.

To seek freedom is to be enslaved by freedom. And, of course, if you are enslaved by freedom then you cannot become free, because you are enslaved. Ironically, you can only become free when you don't want to be free. If you want to be free then you won't become free because to want to be free is to become a slave to freedom and therefore to never be free from freedom ever again!

The only type of desire for freedom that doesn't enslave you is the desire for freedom from freedom. Therefore, the desire for freedom from freedom is, ironically, the only free type of freedom! Why is the desire from this type of freedom a liberating desire and the desire for any other type of freedom an enslaving desire? Because we're Zen Buddhists and we know better than you, that's why.

quote:

You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief, But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound.

If you want to be free, stop caring about things. If you are being brutally opressed then just lie there and take it, you greedy asshole. What, you want to live without oppression? No wonder you're unhappy! Lying on the floor while pretending what's happening to you isn't actually happening to you is probably the best way to acheive freedom. If you're lucky, you might even end up naked.

quote:

In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle your eyes.

Ideally, the best solution is to avoid eye-contact with freedom if you see it walking down the street. Pretend it isn't there and ignore all its flashy bling-bling. Really, all it wants to do is to beat you like the mother-fucking tyrant it is.

quote:

And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free? If it is an unjust law you would abolish, that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead.

Stop writing federally binding laws on your own forehead, jackass. You'll get us all in trouble.

quote:

And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed. For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud, but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their own pride? And if it is a care you would cast off, that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you.

If you should ever find yourself living under a despot, it is your own fault. Perhaps you should have closed your eyes and imagined his throne destroyed, abandoned all the "pride" you have in your own "freedom" and stopped caring about what was happening to you. Remember: living under tyranny is just a choice you've made because you're so damn negative about watching your wife be raped, your children be killed and your village be raized to the ground! Someone alert the Rwandans!

quote:

And if it is a fear you would dispel, the seat of that fear is in your heart and not in the hand of the feared. Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded, the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape. These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling. And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light. And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom.

Fuck knows.

EDIT: That was brilliant Renegade, made my day. Thanks .

yeah, thats total quality

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