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balanced audio cables

alright.
here's what i need:
2x 20 meters of balanced audio cable going from my future mixer to my future sound card, most likely with TRS connectors, not XLR.
and here's my problem:
this kind of cable can't be found anywhere, so i'd have to make it myself (no problems there as i can solder just fine).
but what kind of cable should i buy? is microphone cable good for line level signals? i've been looking at 2x0,22 mm^2 cables. but i'm not sure if they all have the metal shielding on them where you apparently connect the ground on the connectors. i've bee googling this for over a week now and i just can't figure it out.
would this cable work for me:
http://www.thomann.de/fi/cordial_cmk_222_sw.htm ?
i have no idea if it has the shielding where to connect the ground or not and i can't find any details about it by googling either.
also is this the only kind of cable what i should be looking for? 2x0,22 mm^2 microphone cable with the two signal wires twisted around each other with the metal shielding on it or would some other kind of cable work better?
currently i have rca cables running from my bedroom to my living room where the computer is and the background noise is fucking killing it, that's why i'm thinking of getting these balanced cables.
i figured i'd post this here instead of the production studio because this has to do with djing and not producing, even though i think there might be more people who know about this kind of stuff in the production studio.

you possibly could just order balanced audio cables from some online dealership. im sure the cost of the cables + shipping is worth the hassle of trying to make your own

quote:

Originally posted by i got big pants you possibly could just order balanced audio cables from some online dealership. im sure the cost of the cables + shipping is worth the hassle of trying to make your own

i would do that if such cables were available somewhere at a decent price, but i haven't found any anywhere!

quote:

Originally posted by i got big pants you possibly could just order balanced audio cables from some online dealership. im sure the cost of the cables + shipping is worth the hassle of trying to make your own

I agree just buy them online don't make your own.

http://bluejeanscable.com/


/thread

quote:

Originally posted by jdat http://bluejeanscable.com/ /thread

not. would end up costing me about 200$ + shipping + taxes + customs. that's WAY too much

quote:

Originally posted by Existo22 I agree just buy them online don't make your own.

like i said, this kind of cable can not be found anywhere for a decent price. and making your own cables is easy as fuck anyway.

if its easy as fuck...why are you asking questions???

i would assume easy things means no help...kind of like cleaning your sink...its easy...so do you really need to ask people how to clean it?

quote:

Originally posted by i got big pants if its easy as fuck...why are you asking questions??? i would assume easy things means no help...kind of like cleaning your sink...its easy...so do you really need to ask people how to clean it?

oh FFS. are you stupid or something? making the cable is easy as fuck. but i'm not entirely sure on what kind of wire i should be getting or what would be best for this kind of a solution, so i thought i'd ask here where i think at least someone would know seeing as this is the dj booth and many dj mixers have balanced outputs. but apparently everyone connects their expensive gear to some crap 50� stereo and/or integrated crap sound card or some 5� soundblaster with rca inputs or worse yet, just a 3,5mm miniplug.

not everybody connects their equipment to a cheap little stereo...i certainly dont...but do you really need super expensive cables for home applications? probably not...go get yourself some monster or mogami cables and be happy

theoretically all you need is a cable with 3 wires in it and a TRS on each end. the cable in the link you posted WILL NOT WORK for balanced audio. that cable would only be good for an unblanced connection. before you go to all the trouble you should make certain that your mixer has balanced outputs, most interfaces have balanced inputs but will also accept an unbalanced signal.

you will want to use a shielded cable since 20 m is probably long enough to pick up some electromagnetic interference. im not sure, because i dont know too much about them, but you may need a direct box in your signal chain as well. this may be the reason you cant find the necessary length. just an idea and like i said, i dont know much about direct boxes. i just know that they are sometimes required for running audio cables at longer lengths.

if all else fails, just move your computer and booth closer together.

Balanced cable

If you want to make a balanced cable you need to make sure your mixer has balanced outs TRS, or XLR. You also want to make sure that the input you are going into is balanced as well. Both ends of the connection have to be balanced for you to get the noise regection that a balanced conection provides. Simply using a shielded cable does not insure a quite connection.

The cable you linked looks like it will work provided it has a shield. You would connect that to the body of your connector.

When making cables on a TRS connectoin

tip +
ring -
sleve ground/cable shield

On an XLR
pin 1 ground
pin 2 +
pin 3 -

Here are some links from the rane website that will give you a good idea of how to go about running audio over such a long distance.

http://www.rane.com/note151.html

http://www.rane.com/note110.html

quote:

Originally posted by skip like i said, this kind of cable can not be found anywhere for a decent price. and making your own cables is easy as fuck anyway.

There are other factors that will cost you money:
Cost of the soldering machine.
Cost of the solder. You need the right type solder. They dont just use ''any solder'' with audio connections.
Cost of the shield.
Cost of wire.
Cost of the connectors.
Where are you going to find the connectors?
How are you going to shield the cables?
Do you know how to do it?

This is too much trouble if you ask me.
I would spend the money and buy a pair of 20 feet cable.
They make those with machines in a factory.
It doesnt have to be top of the line monster cable m1000s just something to carry the signal.

In my opinion it is easier because cables are not worth the trouble of the DIY approach.
You might spend your cash on something that doesn't work and end up buying pre-made cables at the end.


But I could be wrong: Google make your own xlr cables and you might come up with something.
Best regards

Most cities of population 50,000+ have a sound contracting company that provides sound for public events (and maybe rent out equipment) and they have their own stash of cables. Sometimes LOTS of XLR cables and they might have extra ones they no longer need & would sell at reasonable cost. Chop off the connectors if not the right type and add your own.

I live in a town of 70,000 and the sound company has big racks of cables for concerts, hockey games, schools, etc, loads of speakers too, I was amazed they had so much stuff when I went into their equipment room to see about renting some speakers.

Also the music equipment stores usually have lots of cables although only up to 10 m or so. They would know where to get longer cables in your region, or could special order them.

Plus what you can find on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by i got big pants not everybody connects their equipment to a cheap little stereo...i certainly dont...but do you really need super expensive cables for home applications? probably not...go get yourself some monster or mogami cables and be happy

alright. i think we have some problems understanding each other here.
i currently have wires with rca connectors going from my mixer to my computer and my amp. the cables are about 20 meters long. that distance is way too long for an unbalanced cable, so there's too much audible interference on the signal.
i'm getting a new mixer in a few weeks or so. the mixer has balanced outputs unlike my current one.
i could also use a new sound card and i've looking at some with balanced inputs. nearly all the sound cards with balanced inputs use TRS connectors, so i can't buy 20 meter XLR cable (which are rather easy to find) even though my mixer will have both TRS and XLR outs.
so i'd need 2 XLR to TRS or TRS to TRS cables and as i have to make them myself most likely, i'd rather make them TRS to TRS as later on if i'll connect the mixer to something else that accepts balanced signal, finding a XLR to XLR or XLR to TRS cable would be much easier than finding a TRS to TRS cable.
so there, i need 2x 20 meters of balanced audio cable with TRS connectors. or do you still want to argue about that?
and no, i don't need super expensive cables for home applications, that's why i'm looking into making them myself rather than buying monster cables. buying monster cables would end up costing me hundreds or euros. i don't think i'd save any money by going with those.

quote:

Originally posted by Vero theoretically all you need is a cable with 3 wires in it and a TRS on each end. the cable in the link you posted WILL NOT WORK for balanced audio. that cable would only be good for an unblanced connection. before you go to all the trouble you should make certain that your mixer has balanced outputs, most interfaces have balanced inputs but will also accept an unbalanced signal. you will want to use a shielded cable since 20 m is probably long enough to pick up some electromagnetic interference. im not sure, because i dont know too much about them, but you may need a direct box in your signal chain as well. this may be the reason you cant find the necessary length. just an idea and like i said, i dont know much about direct boxes. i just know that they are sometimes required for running audio cables at longer lengths. if all else fails, just move your computer and booth closer together.

aren't DI boxes only needed if the signal is unbalanced when it leaves the mixer?
also on most cables used for balanced connections there's apparently only two wires and you connect the ground on the metal shield on the cable. from my understanding connecting the ground to the metal shield that's around both the cables that have audio signal going protects the signal better than if it were just 3 wires.
and my future mixer will have balanced outputs and i'm thinking of buying a sound card with balanced inputs, i've made sure of these things before even considering balanced wires.

Re: Balanced cable

quote:

Originally posted by Allen Mueller If you want to make a balanced cable you need to make sure your mixer has balanced outs TRS, or XLR. You also want to make sure that the input you are going into is balanced as well. Both ends of the connection have to be balanced for you to get the noise regection that a balanced conection provides. Simply using a shielded cable does not insure a quite connection. The cable you linked looks like it will work provided it has a shield. You would connect that to the body of your connector. When making cables on a TRS connectoin tip + ring - sleve ground/cable shield On an XLR pin 1 ground pin 2 + pin 3 - Here are some links from the rane website that will give you a good idea of how to go about running audio over such a long distance. http://www.rane.com/note151.html http://www.rane.com/note110.html

thanks for the reply.
i'll check those rane links when i wake up. and i think i'll just have to email thomann and ask them what kind of a cable i should be getting as from the info on their site (or even the manufacturer's site) i can't figure out if the cable has a shield or not.
and yes, mixer will have balanced outs and sound card will have balancecd ins.

quote:

Originally posted by Existo22 There are other factors that will cost you money: Cost of the soldering machine. Cost of the solder. You need the right type solder. They dont just use ''any solder'' with audio connections. Cost of the shield. Cost of wire. Cost of the connectors. Where are you going to find the connectors? How are you going to shield the cables? Do you know how to do it? This is too much trouble if you ask me. I would spend the money and buy a pair of 20 feet cable. They make those with machines in a factory. It doesnt have to be top of the line monster cable m1000s just something to carry the signal. In my opinion it is easier because cables are not worth the trouble of the DIY approach. You might spend your cash on something that doesn't work and end up buying pre-made cables at the end. But I could be wrong: Google make your own xlr cables and you might come up with something. Best regards

i already have a soldering iron. solder is cheap, even if i have to get some "special stuff". cost of the shield? what shield? cost of the wire is about 0,70�/m if i get the cable i first linked (anyway should be under 1,00�/m). connectors cost from around 1 to 5� a piece, cheap as fuck if you ask me. i'm gonna find the connectors from the same place where i'll find the wire. how am i going to shield the cable? sorry, i don't understand what you mean by that. and i'm pretty sure i know how to do it. i've made cables before and it's been very easy. balanced cables shouldn't be any different.
oh and 2x 20 feet is not enough, i need 2x 20 meters, which is about 2x 65 feet.
and i would buy pre made cables if i found them somewhere for a decent price. i'm not going to spend over 100� for cables though (or even 200� as jdat suggested) if i can make them myself for about 50� or so.
and i've googled for a week or so, everything that has to do with balanced audio connections. but i still wasn't sure of the kind of wire best for my needs, that's why i posted this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by tvmann Most cities of population 50,000+ have a sound contracting company that provides sound for public events (and maybe rent out equipment) and they have their own stash of cables. Sometimes LOTS of XLR cables and they might have extra ones they no longer need & would sell at reasonable cost. Chop off the connectors if not the right type and add your own. I live in a town of 70,000 and the sound company has big racks of cables for concerts, hockey games, schools, etc, loads of speakers too, I was amazed they had so much stuff when I went into their equipment room to see about renting some speakers. Also the music equipment stores usually have lots of cables although only up to 10 m or so. They would know where to get longer cables in your region, or could special order them. Plus what you can find on the internet.

thanks for the tip. i could check that option out too, especially as i have some friends how most likely know a few people that have got something to do with such companies.
and i went to this one music equipment store the other day to ask about such a cable and they didn't know much at all and tried to sell me wrong kind of cable and it would have cost an arm and a leg still. gotta go check a few other ones when i have time.

Cable: Canare Starquad L-4E5S or L-4E6S
http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?obj...FAD046DCA18AAFA
Cost: $52 for 130ft (40 meters) of L-4E5S

IMHO, I'd go with the smaller L-4E5S cable for TRS plugs, it's easier to deal with inside the small TRS plugs, more flexible, lighter weight... I don't think you need to worry about the larger gauge wire at a length of 20 meters. I really love the L-4E5S stuff. It's a little more effort to deal with the doubled up wires on the hot and cold pins when you make the cable, but electrically it's a nice plus. Added bonus is if one of the conductors gets severed somewhere along the cable, you'll still have signal. I've used this stuff for years on my PA rig, all my cables are custom. I feel you when you get sticker-shock at the cost of commercially-made cables. It's unreal.

If you'd prefer a standard two-pair cable, rather than the starquad..
Canare L-2T2S
http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?objectid=C86D2270-3048-7098-AFFFB874C85CFD00

Connectors: Canare F-16
http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?obj...F5DA43EE99C3A24
Cost: 15.82 for 4

http://www.markertek.com is the supplier I usually use for this sort of stuff. They are a large broadcast supply warehouse offering all sorts of goodies like this. Edit: Notice you're in Europe, might shop around for a closer distributor

I laugh at "Monster Cable". Just another cheap made-in-an-asian-sweatshop product with a hefty dose of american-made marketing hype. Possibly the lowest value cable out there.

As far as wiring it goes... Use the braid shield for the ground (sleeve), and match the colors on both ends for the tip and ring. It doesn't matter which color you use for tip and ring, as long as it's the same color on both ends.



Yes, mic cable is used for balanced audio cabling.

Hope that helps

quote:

Originally posted by MERiDiAN5i2 Cable: Canare Starquad L-4E5S or L-4E6S http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?obj...FAD046DCA18AAFA Cost: $52 for 130ft (40 meters) of L-4E5S IMHO, I'd go with the smaller L-4E5S cable for TRS plugs, it's easier to deal with inside the small TRS plugs, more flexible, lighter weight... I don't think you need to worry about the larger gauge wire at a length of 20 meters. I really love the L-4E5S stuff. It's a little more effort to deal with the doubled up wires on the hot and cold pins when you make the cable, but electrically it's a nice plus. Added bonus is if one of the conductors gets severed somewhere along the cable, you'll still have signal. I've used this stuff for years on my PA rig, all my cables are custom. I feel you when you get sticker-shock at the cost of commercially-made cables. It's unreal. If you'd prefer a standard two-pair cable, rather than the starquad.. Canare L-2T2S http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?obj...FFFB874C85CFD00 Connectors: Canare F-16 http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?obj...F5DA43EE99C3A24 Cost: 15.82 for 4 http://www.markertek.com is the supplier I usually use for this sort of stuff. They are a large broadcast supply warehouse offering all sorts of goodies like this. Edit: Notice you're in Europe, might shop around for a closer distributor I laugh at "Monster Cable". Just another cheap made-in-an-asian-sweatshop product with a hefty dose of american-made marketing hype. Possibly the lowest value cable out there. As far as wiring it goes... Use the braid shield for the ground (sleeve), and match the colors on both ends for the tip and ring. It doesn't matter which color you use for tip and ring, as long as it's the same color on both ends. Yes, mic cable is used for balanced audio cabling. Hope that helps

thanks man. that really does help hearing from someone who knows how it is.


and thanks for the links Allen Mueller, i just checked them out briefly, they seem like a really good read, just what i need.
gotta start reading.

Go with Neutrik jack plugs - slightly more expensive than others, but I've used them in some pretty tough environments and they've never failed on me, whereas other brands have. The strain relief is just so much better on Neutrik stuff.

http://www.neutrik.com/uk/en/audio/...P3X_detail.aspx

As for cable, Starquad stuff is nice but not really necessary in a home environment - if you need to cut cost then just buy some twin core + shield stuff like this.

Andy

Right, bollox to all these suggestions.

Go to VAN DAMME CABLE

You won't find better cable or hand made manufacturing. I know this 'cos I used to work for them. Note USED TO WORK FOR THEM which means I have no bias. They really are the best cables I have ever seen, flexible, tough as anything all the top pro tour companies and studios buy onloy from them. Through them, I supplied the cables for Liam Howletts studio at SARM west, Abbey Road studios, Coldplay, Keiser Chiefs, Glasto, Audiobulleys, Air Studios, Metropolis, Simply Red, you name it.

They do a starquad (2 x twisted pairs + shield) and will ship to anywhere in the world. They also will make any specification you want (weird lengths, custom metal work, up to 64 way looms, any connectors etc.)

They are also quite well priced.

I mean it, for anyone ,looking for quality cables these are the best source in Europe.

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