TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- Ableton Rendering Issues

Ableton Rendering Issues

I am hoping someone here can enlighten me with the following:

I am using Ableton Live 6.0.10 and an integrated soundcard that came with my PC laptop. The audio drivers register on Ableton as MME/DirectX and Input/Output Device as Sigmatel AudioWave in preferences.

When I render my audio file which is composed of some samples, VSTis, Ableton effects, and SonicMaximizer VST, I set it to 16 bits and 96,000 bps (because its the highest my computer allows me to go before the rendered file comes out sounding really weird and out of tempo).

So I render the file and it doesn't sound as clear (becomes very muddy) nor as loud as when I played it on Ableton. Now, the only conclusions I can come to are:

1. Soundcard is a piece of shit--should I purchase a new/better one?

2. I thought it had something to do with SonicMaximizer, but I did a comparison test between rendered files with and without SonicMaximizer, and they both came out somewhat muddy and softer volume-wise; although, the one with SonicMaximizer was even more screwed up.

I would truly appreciate anyone's technical expertise or insightful opinions. Thank you for your time.

the muddyness could be from sooo many things so thats hard to tell. also sonic maximizer, while can go on the master channel isn't a mastering tool; the reason your mix down is so low is because of frequency dynamics.

you will need to master your track( to some degree) to bring all the levels up to modern day recording levels(loudness war thread)

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0729 the muddyness could be from sooo many things so thats hard to tell. also sonic maximizer, while can go on the master channel isn't a mastering tool; the reason your mix down is so low is because of frequency dynamics. you will need to master your track( to some degree) to bring all the levels up to modern day recording levels(loudness war thread)

I have EQed the track quite a bit and compressed as well. I just use SonicMaximizer on my bass drum and bassline because it makes it sound more pumping. I don't apply it to the master track.

Just to clarify: When I preview my song in Ableton and just listen to it, the sound is much clearer and louder than, when it's finally rendered.

BTW, I do plan on finally mastering the song as a whole in Soundforge, but the muddiness that results from rendering really puts everything I did in Ableton out-of-whack.

quote:

Originally posted by phantom limb I have EQed the track quite a bit and compressed as well. I just use SonicMaximizer on my bass drum and bassline because it makes it sound more pumping. I don't apply it to the master track. Just to clarify: When I preview my song in Ableton and just listen to it, the sound is much clearer and louder than, when it's finally rendered. BTW, I do plan on finally mastering the song as a whole in Soundforge, but the muddiness that results from rendering really puts everything I did in Ableton out-of-whack.

What you need to do is a proper mix down.

I not 100% of the correctness in what I am about to say, it was told to me by a good friend who has work with Ableton in a studio for some time...

Think of it like this: When Ableton is rendering your audio it is grabbing all the audio from the track and attempting to mash it all together into one neat package. If you haven�t spent the time using EQ to carve out a place in the frequencies spectrum for all your individual instruments, some of them are going to get a little squashed.

After your mix down your track will need some mastering done to sound better when its up against other tracks. You can do this yourself if you know what you are doing or you can send it of to a pro master-er

does your render clip at all?

quote:

Originally posted by thesuperfunk does your render clip at all?

Yes, the file renders. I can only render up to 16 bits and 96 kbps. Unfortunately, when I try, for example, 24 bits and 192 kbps, it comes out as a 2 second blip that's really high-pitched.

When I do render at 16 bits/96 kbps, compared to my work done while using Ableton, it sounds like there's a sock in the speakers dampening the higher frequency range and the bass levels are exaggerated at the weirdest times. Isn't the final rendered file supposed to be relatively the same sound as when using Ableton? A 16 bit/96 kbps wav file should sound relatively similar, right?

quote:

Originally posted by d4dirty What you need to do is a proper mix down. I not 100% of the correctness in what I am about to say, it was told to me by a good friend who has work with Ableton in a studio for some time... Think of it like this: When Ableton is rendering your audio it is grabbing all the audio from the track and attempting to mash it all together into one neat package. If you haven�t spent the time using EQ to carve out a place in the frequencies spectrum for all your individual instruments, some of them are going to get a little squashed. After your mix down your track will need some mastering done to sound better when its up against other tracks. You can do this yourself if you know what you are doing or you can send it of to a pro master-er

I understand your point and I appreciate the analogy. I have tried to EQ my piece well enough that it sounds fairly clear through my sound system. The issue is when I finally render the file it sounds completely different. I'll try posting a sample sometime in the near future, but alas, I will not be able to demonstrate how it sounds in Ableton because the render does render properly. This is a truly irritating dilemma!

quote:

Originally posted by phantom limb Yes, the file renders.

I mean does your render have any clipping in it? ... If you open it up in an audio program you'll be able to tell if the peaks of the wave are clipped or not.

What is the peak value on the master channel when you play the song?

Do you have normalize on or off on the render dialog box?

What happens if you render out to 16/44.1?

For an onboard soundcard, rendering in 16/96 may prove too much... I've had some funny results with a crap external soundblaster for 20$... try 16/44.1.
Anyway, it's better if you can do 24/44.1 than 16/96, trust me. To sample in 192khz is pure waste of cpu & hd, no need to go there.
You probably have some nasty clipping too, but my main bet is that that soundcard of yours doesn't do the job of 96khz rendering well... combined with the clipping - here you go

quote:

Originally posted by thesuperfunk I mean does your render have any clipping in it? ... If you open it up in an audio program you'll be able to tell if the peaks of the wave are clipped or not.

Very little clipping. I try my best to avoid clipping. It's a music producer's greatest enemy!

quote:

Originally posted by 3F05Q What is the peak value on the master channel when you play the song? Do you have normalize on or off on the render dialog box? What happens if you render out to 16/44.1?

I have the master channel set at -35 decibels. Bear in mind, I tend to not adjust the individual track levels, but just the master level. Albeit, my method is very backwards, but it makes it easier to manipulate one level than 17 others!

Normalize is off. Is normalizing really necessary? When I master the final mix, I just tend to EQ and then proceed to compress.

16/44.1 comes out still sounding muddy. Not as bad as say going to 192 kbps though.

quote:

Originally posted by Tarpex For an onboard soundcard, rendering in 16/96 may prove too much... I've had some funny results with a crap external soundblaster for 20$... try 16/44.1. Anyway, it's better if you can do 24/44.1 than 16/96, trust me. To sample in 192khz is pure waste of cpu & hd, no need to go there. You probably have some nasty clipping too, but my main bet is that that soundcard of yours doesn't do the job of 96khz rendering well... combined with the clipping - here you go

The highest I can go in 24 bits is 96 kbps; although, once the file is rendered Ableton shows an error page and proceeds to freeze my computer. The file does make it through, but still has the muddiness issue.

It appears in 24 bits the wave amplitudes become slightly lower. The sound quality is still muddy, but when I EQ on Soundforge, I can get the final mix close to the way I had it set on Ableton; although, I have to manipulate a lot of the frequencies all over the place.

When I render, I have very little clipping. Barely anything goes over 0 decibels. Thanks for making the point with the 24 bits. It's a very good and useful point!

quote:

Originally posted by phantom limb I have the master channel set at -35 decibels. Bear in mind, I tend to not adjust the individual track levels, but just the master level. Albeit, my method is very backwards, but it makes it easier to manipulate one level than 17 others! Normalize is off. Is normalizing really necessary? When I master the final mix, I just tend to EQ and then proceed to compress. 16/44.1 comes out still sounding muddy. Not as bad as say going to 192 kbps though.

There's your problem right there. The master should be left alone in most cases.

The whole point of a mixdown is to reduce all of your tracks to off pretty much and then work them slowly until you get a nice balance. If they are all at the same level, you're going to have problems regardless of how good your EQing is.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz There's your problem right there. The master should be left alone in most cases. The whole point of a mixdown is to reduce all of your tracks to off pretty much and then work them slowly until you get a nice balance. If they are all at the same level, you're going to have problems regardless of how good your EQing is.

I'll try testing this theory out. I still believe there is some other culprit involved in this issue.

quote:

Originally posted by phantom limb I'll try testing this theory out. I still believe there is some other culprit involved in this issue.

Yeah I don't think that is the answer either. I also turn down the volume on the master channel quite a bit on the mixdown as a bad habit and my mixes turn out fine.

If you can eq the mix in your editor after and make it sound ok, maybe the problem is with one or more of your EQ's in Ableton. I have found that sometimes ableton can screw up the automation on the render.

To see if this is the problem, one by one freeze your tracks and listen.

If your individual tracks sound different once they are frozen you will need to play with the envelops to get them working properlly.

Just to rule out that its not Ableton rendering actually playing up, just resample the track in ableton.

Create audio track, set audio from to resampling. Arm track. Hit record. Record entire set/session.

Find where live has stored the recording, open that up in whatever program. Does it still sound different to playing it in Ableton?

I have had rendering issues (different to what you describe though) in the past in live and this is the way round it.

I will test out both of your guys' theories near the end of this week. Unfortunately, I've just been swamped with work this week. I'll post a report sometime near Friday evening.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz There's your problem right there. The master should be left alone in most cases. The whole point of a mixdown is to reduce all of your tracks to off pretty much and then work them slowly until you get a nice balance. If they are all at the same level, you're going to have problems regardless of how good your EQing is.

I tested this theory out and it appears that there is nothing different between adjusting each individual track or just the master track. Both come out very muddy and different when listening in Ableton.

quote:

Originally posted by d4dirty Yeah I don't think that is the answer either. I also turn down the volume on the master channel quite a bit on the mixdown as a bad habit and my mixes turn out fine. If you can eq the mix in your editor after and make it sound ok, maybe the problem is with one or more of your EQ's in Ableton. I have found that sometimes ableton can screw up the automation on the render. To see if this is the problem, one by one freeze your tracks and listen. If your individual tracks sound different once they are frozen you will need to play with the envelops to get them working properlly.

I froze all of the tracks in my songs. When I listened to the playback, there appeared to be no difference between the frozen and unfrozen tracks. I was hoping this might be the answer, but alas, it was not. Thank you for the input though--it was and is much appreciated.

Since nothing else seems to be working so far, perhaps you could try to render/mixdown each track individually and then use each exported track to make one final mixdown. I don't really know if that will do anything, just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by G-Con Just to rule out that its not Ableton rendering actually playing up, just resample the track in ableton. Create audio track, set audio from to resampling. Arm track. Hit record. Record entire set/session. Find where live has stored the recording, open that up in whatever program. Does it still sound different to playing it in Ableton? I have had rendering issues (different to what you describe though) in the past in live and this is the way round it.

Your theory has proven to be the most helpful, but I am still enduring some mishaps with my rendered file. When I do resample my rendered song at the correct tempo (did not realize that I had to adjust tempo to song's original for a while), and I dig up the file, it appears to have minutely some better quality to it.

Now, this is not the best thing to reference, but when viewing Winamp media player's (fairly crude) wave spectrum analyzer, some of the higher frequencies are shaved off. More of the higher frequencies are salvaged when resampling, but not all and when, I do try to master in Soundforge, I can bring it to a fairly decent quality, but because of the shaving that occurs from Ableton's rendering process, there are some higher frequencies that are out-of-whack and disturb the final product.

My audio conundrum appears to be more complex than I had hoped and along with that, much more perplexing. If anyone can offer any more advice, I will gladly look into it. Thank you very much for your patience, everyone and the wonderful technical expertise that many have shared.

By the way, if someone could recommend a good wave spectrum analyzing program or VST (that is on the cheaper/free side), I would be honored if you share such information with me. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by DJChrisB Since nothing else seems to be working so far, perhaps you could try to render/mixdown each track individually and then use each exported track to make one final mixdown. I don't really know if that will do anything, just a thought.

I am very open to suggestions. I will give it a shot--no harm in doing so. I will update as soon as I can.

Phantom limb, may I suggest you post this problem over at the ableton forum. There are many people over there that are absolute experts with ableton and understand comletely how it works on a technical side and should be able to tell you what the problem is or what you are doing wrong.

Just make sure you are as specific as possible, give all the info you have given us and don't let it sound as though you are bashing live's audio quality (they are a bit touchy over there )

I'm pretty sure you'll solve the problem quicker than you will here

quote:

Originally posted by G-Con Phantom limb, may I suggest you post this problem over at the ableton forum. There are many people over there that are absolute experts with ableton and understand comletely how it works on a technical side and should be able to tell you what the problem is or what you are doing wrong. Just make sure you are as specific as possible, give all the info you have given us and don't let it sound as though you are bashing live's audio quality (they are a bit touchy over there ) I'm pretty sure you'll solve the problem quicker than you will here

You have a good point. I'm unsure why it never came to mind. I'll definitely give it a shot--thank you.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.