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-- Ontario Election 2007: (Vote October 10th)
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Ontario Election 2007: (Vote October 10th)

In regards to the 'voting' question, i'd like to see where everyone stand on this debate.

hopefully people take it seriously and will make an informed vote.

The big issue is the education system, and i'm torn on this. As a catholic, i strongly believe in having the catholic education system. In theory, i'm in favour of other dominant religions within ontario(ie. muslim, jewish) to be granted funding, but this could be dangerous in cuts to our current education systems. So i'm torn on who to vote for on those issues, so may still need time to decide.

Plz don't bother voting just for the hell of it. Know the facts!

i purposely won't put 'undecided' just don't vote if thats the case until you decide.

Voting conservatives.

The catholic education system thing isn't a big point for me, but I am rather annoyed at McGuinty's f*ckery of Ontario for last 4 years in general.

Plus with a candidate named John Tory, you just gotta vote Conservative (you can't make that shit up!)

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree rather annoyed at McGuinty's ******y of Ontario

McGuinty is a flat-out lier who will say anything to get votes.

McGuinty has made many significant promises and guarantees that he and his party have not kept (each with their own weak excuse).

Ontario Liberals have manipulated the province's financial position in an attempt to discredit the framework they were provided with (by previous governments) - a framework which has enabled the province to fiscally prosper.

McGuinty's Liberals has given millions of dollars to Liberal supporters via "over-funded" grants (i.e. a cricket league [run by Liberal party funders] getting $1 million vs. the $150k they asked for) or via un-scrutinized funding programs (slush funds).

However I think the most important reason people should vote for another party is because the Liberals have stood for little, accomplished even less and not engineered the province for continued success. The Liberal party is a party that in effectual terms have done nothing, made no hard decisions and refused to "step-up" and set a cohesive direction for Ontario. Under the Liberals Ontario has stagnated from a government, policy and reform perspective.

Ontario needs a party that can lead progress, execute on a vision and move Ontario forward.

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree Voting conservatives. The catholic education system thing isn't a big point for me, but I am rather annoyed at McGuinty's ******y of Ontario for last 4 years in general.

very true.
i'm tired of his crap.
the school thing for me is a load of crap. its not a big issue.
in the past there are to many things said and nothing was done. i'm voting for the guy who's looks like he knows what he means the most.

The school thing probably doesn't mean much to many on here because you don't have children attending school and you probably don't pay education taxes.

The idea of my tax dollars having to support a public school system and all religous school systems....especially when I am a non-religous individual doesn't seem right. Not to mention the catholic school system can already pick and choose who they want attending their schools....if a child is a bad egg then they can just send him/her off to the public system to take care of.

In all good concious I cannot vote for any party that is willing to take my tax dollars and give them to religous groups.

I think I may decline to vote.....I will take the time to go and get my ballot and then advise them that I am declining to vote....that way it will be noted properly.....which is better then just not showing up.

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced The idea of my tax dollars having to support a public school system and all religous school systems....especially when I am a non-religous individual doesn't seem right. Not to mention the catholic school system can already pick and choose who they want attending their schools....if a child is a bad egg then they can just send him/her off to the public system to take care of.

i'm pretty sure you have the right to chose where your tax dollars go (either public or catholic) and that would be a misconception that all the bad kids get shipped off to public schools. Through my dealing, some of the worst kids stayed around from k-8 in catholic.

quote:

Originally posted by djbruuen i'm pretty sure you have the right to chose where your tax dollars go (either public or catholic) and that would be a misconception that all the bad kids get shipped off to public schools. Through my dealing, some of the worst kids stayed around from k-8 in catholic.

the kids may stay around but there is nothing to stop the catholic school board from shipping them off to the public school board.

If the government is going to support the public school system adn religous school systems then funding is going to be coming from somewhere....and I don't think the churches are going to be chipping off any pieces of gold to help support the schools.....its going to be tax payers making their donation.

quote:

Originally posted by djbruuen i'm pretty sure you have the right to chose where your tax dollars go (either public or catholic)

At present you can choose where to direct the education part of your property taxes. This is not to say, however, that you are only supporting the school system you choose as not all of the funding for the school boards come from property tas. Moreover, it is highly unlikely that the various religious schools will receive enough money from property taxes so they will require even more from the provincial budgets.

Personally, despite being catholic, I would love to see all public funding for all religious education pulled. Religion is a personal matter, not a civil matter. Too bad the BNA act guarentees funding for the seperate school board.

keeping it short...

I'm leaning for Conservatives for the first time. They have a decent guy running in Aurora.

However... I don't like the Conservatives stand on education funding. Doesn't conservative mean a little about keeping things the way they are? It seems to me that the Conservatives took their stand just to be against the Liberals, rather than being 'conservative' about the topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie However... I don't like the Conservatives stand on education funding. Doesn't conservative mean a little about keeping things the way they are? It seems to me that the Conservatives took their stand just to be against the Liberals, rather than being 'conservative' about the topic.

AJ, ideologically... conservativism is an ideology seeking progressive change at a moderated pace. The Conservative/Progressive Conservative parties in this country are not actually conservative parties... they are liberal parties (liberalism seeks a minimal role for government and laise fair economy). The Liberal party is a conservative party (ideologically).

Liberal.

not because I love McGuinty, since he's done a whole lot of nothing...but because George Smitherman is our MPP.

I will be voting for the status quo voting system too ('first past the gate'). I don't care for the mixed system being proposed and don't care to get into it here. Suffice to say, there are obvious pros and cons to each system, which I've weighed in my decision (just as I have in deciding to vote Liberal).

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker McGuinty is a flat-out lier who will say anything to get votes. McGuinty has made many significant promises and guarantees that he and his party have not kept (each with their own weak excuse). Ontario Liberals have manipulated the province's financial position in an attempt to discredit the framework they were provided with (by previous governments) - a framework which has enabled the province to fiscally prosper. McGuinty's Liberals has given millions of dollars to Liberal supporters via "over-funded" grants (i.e. a cricket league [run by Liberal party funders] getting $1 million vs. the $150k they asked for) or via un-scrutinized funding programs (slush funds). However I think the most important reason people should vote for another party is because the Liberals have stood for little, accomplished even less and not engineered the province for continued success. The Liberal party is a party that in effectual terms have done nothing, made no hard decisions and refused to "step-up" and set a cohesive direction for Ontario. Under the Liberals Ontario has stagnated from a government, policy and reform perspective. Ontario needs a party that can lead progress, execute on a vision and move Ontario forward.

Very Well Said !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie keeping it short... I'm leaning for Conservatives for the first time. They have a decent guy running in Aurora.

Ditto, Klees seems fairly together, and has done some pretty good things in the past.


[edit] he came to my house like an hour after i posted this lol [/edit]

Voted PC...

Like always!


Should be an interesting race in Missisauga South. Mississauga South is always very close between Liberal and PC, however last election Peterson won as a liberal, but he crossed over in March of this year as he was fed up w/ Dalton's lies.

I think the new Mixed Electoral system would be beneficial in this case, as many people like Peterson as a Person, and would probably vote for him to be re-elected, except for that he's a PC.

quote:

Originally posted by exstasie I think the new Mixed Electoral system would be beneficial in this case, as many people like Peterson as a Person, and would probably vote for him to be re-elected, except for that he's a PC.

Uh no. The Conservatives are already popular enough. They will not be the major beneficiary from the mixed electoral jugf*ck system

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree Uh no. The Conservatives are already popular enough. They will not be the major beneficiary from the mixed electoral jugf*ck system

I didn't mean that it would help one party or the other. I was just stating that it might help out voters. I know there are people who want to vote for Peterson to represent our riding, but won't because they dont' want to vote PC.

quote:

Originally posted by exstasie I didn't mean that it would help one party or the other. I was just stating that it might help out voters. I know there are people who want to vote for Peterson to represent our riding, but won't because they dont' want to vote PC.

That's just retarded.

You should vote for a candidate that you'd think best represents your riding, his political party affiliation not withstanding.

I guess there are a lot of dumb Canadians that won't touch anything that they somehow deludes into thinking reeks of 'right wing'

PS: Vote Marxist-Leninist Party.

Or the Red Tomato vs Green Tomato Party

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree That's just retarded. You should vote for a candidate that you'd think best represents your riding, his political party affiliation not withstanding. I guess there are a lot of dumb Canadians that won't touch anything that they somehow deludes into thinking reeks of 'right wing' PS: Vote Marxist-Leninist Party. Or the Red Tomato vs Green Tomato Party

..I agree, there are a lot of dumb canadians out there, but what can you do?


PS.
...I prefer to vote for the Marijuana party! :P

quote:

Originally posted by exstasie PS. ...I prefer to vote for the Marijuana party! :P

I actually want some of the fringe parties to get representation so I can hear what kind of loonie insane rants they go on.

(curiously, there are lots of 'left wing' fringe parties but very few 'right wing' ones)

Although I am aware of some of McGuinty's shortcomings, I strongly oppose a return to a more conservative position on crime: 'tough stances on crime' do not decrease crime, period.

quote:

Originally posted by exstasie I prefer to vote for the Marijuana party! :P

Do not forget that this is a provincial election whereas changes to the cannabis control laws must take place at a federal level; having said that, since the enforcement of the criminal law rests with provincial governments a province could, theoretically, decide not to implement the cannabis control laws on possession (de facto decriminalization). [Hopefully this is correct, I'm attempting to recall information that I learned years ago].

If the Tories are winning on TranceAddict, it's almost a sure thing that they'll win everywhere else.

And Cenik, you're incorrect. A mind-bogglingly high proportion of crime (in Toronto especially) is from repeat offenders. The police keep arresting them, sometimes even deporting them, but they never seem to stay in prison (or out of the country).

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut If the Tories are winning on TranceAddict, it's almost a sure thing that they'll win everywhere else. And Cenik, you're incorrect. A mind-boggling high proportion of crime (in Toronto especially) is from repeat offenders. The police keep arresting them, sometimes even deporting them, but they never seem to stay in prison (or out of the country).

Diginut you've successfully proven my point: implementing a tougher stance on crime is based upon the theory of deterrence (i.e., when the severity, celerity, and certainty of punishment increase there will be a decrease in the amount of crime being committed) but as you (somewhat) correctly comment upon a significant portion of crime is committed by repeat offenders and, so, the progressively harsher punishments (e.g. mandatory sentences for certain crimes) are not producing their intended effect. All one needs to do is pick up a credible intro to criminology textbook to see the failure of deterrence theory and inefficiency of attempting to reduce crime via more punitive sanctions.

Uh, how is keeping indicted criminals in jail so they can't commit more crime even remotely related to deterrence?

That was some of the most twisted non-logic I've ever heard. The "any textbook" reference clinched it for me, though.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Uh, how is keeping indicted criminals

1.You mean convicted criminals; it is legally and morally unacceptable to imprison someone who has merely been indicted.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut in jail so they can't commit more crime even remotely related to deterrence?

2.It's very simple: long-term imprisonment, i.e., incapacitation, is Canada's most harsh form of criminal sanction and, so, when legislative changes are made in order to toughen up the laws--whereby such alterations almost always involve increasing the time an individual may serve for having transgressed the statute in question--the intent is to deter would-be criminals from engaging in similar behaviour via the state's display of the fact that punitive incapacitation will result for anybody who chooses to offend. In fact, research shows that the severity of punishment is the least effective factor in affecting deterrence (e.g. studies on capital punishment in the U.S. have documented an increase in crime following the use of the death penalty--the most harsh form of punishment available).

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut The "any textbook" reference clinched it for me, though.

Oh yes, your hostile attitudes toward university education materialize once again.

Always a pleasure my friend!

Conservative 100%

McGuinty is a liar and a thief. 40000 pay hike, and he justified it by saying the federal pay is close to that level. Maybe someone should remind him he is not the PM!!! Not to mention the health premium (tax). Taxing the lowest bracket income families after he said and I quote "I won't lower your taxes but I won't raise them either." What he forgot to mention is that he will introduce totally fucking new taxes and then take away eye care examinations as part of the OHIP coverage. Now I'm going to speak as a former University student. A 39% tuition hike is tough to swallow. Dalton trashed the tuition freeze and opened the flood doors for Universities to charge as they see fit. Residents of Toronto, all this talk of new taxes by Mayor Miller, you can thank Dalton for that as well. He allowed Toronto to create and impose new taxes because he forcasted a huge shortcoming of funds because of all the downloading that has taken place by the provincial government. Now Mayor Miller is by no means dealing with the financial crisis in a benefical manner for Torontonians, but you can be rest assured that Dalton said to Toronto "im letting you tax your people because we don't want to look like the bad guys by taxing them ourselves" Only the municipality of Toronto can tax its citizens outside property taxes. Thank you again Dalton. I feel like I have ranted on forever here but I really really hope that you guys think hard and long about whether you want Dalton in for another 4 years. The message he would get if he was re-elected is basically, "I can do whatever the fuck I want because these people will vote for me no matter what I do". On a final note just remember about his getting rid of coal plants and his inability to even try and resolve Caledonia.

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