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-- I think I'm done with vinyl (my short forray into the hype)
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I think I'm done with vinyl (my short forray into the hype)

I've been avoiding vinyl for a long time, hearing from avid devotees about how great vinyl is, about it's "warmth", yada yada yada yada.

Well, I decided to go for the hype and here's what I discovered:

1. Vinyl is a pain in the a$$ - from the point of "which stylus" to cleaning the records, to even shopping for records, I see it as a bad investment of time, money and energy

2. Sound of vinyl vs. CD. Long debates have raged on for years and some are clinging to one school of thought, anothers are willing to fight to the death to argue contrary. Bottom line, in my listening experience - CDs kick vinyl's a$$ when it comes to sound quality.

"Bollox!", you say, "vinyl sounds 10x better than CD". Really? Well, after spending $400 on deck, $125 on stylus, and about $700 on records - I have a different opinion on the matter. For craps and giggles, I ordered the same record - one on Vinyl another one on CD. CD came with 4 more tracks than Vinyl (bonus!). I then had a friend and I did a blind test:

I left the room and came in when the beat started, so that I wouldn't be able to hear the LP noise at the start. I also had to leave before the end of the record.

I could tell a difference between CD and Vinyl without much problem. CD sounded crisp, clear, punchy and had more presense than brand new vinyl. Vinyl tended to sound more muddy at lower frequencies and actually felt more muted. (Yes, we did calibrate the decks and cartridge before hand).

3. All the nonsense about proper calibration of stylus, cleaning records, properly handling the records, yada yada yada - PAIN PAIN PAIN.

I can certainly see the true reason why so many swear by vinyl - when you've invested over $10 or more into LP that has maybe 2 or 3 songs, it's hard to admit and say "I'm a moron for spending this kind of cash, so I'll convince others that my choice is right".

Well, I'm not going to argue - there's a certain sentimentality and attachment that comes with vinyl collecting but aside from that - everything about, to me, seems like a placebo effect.

Given a choice between vinyl or CDs now - I'm going CD route, unless I can't find a particular song I like any other way (excluding MP3s).

Interesting discussion on Wendy Carlos' (Walter Carlos ??? ) site, echoing my findings (which, by the way, were done before I stumbled upon the article):

http://www.wendycarlos.com/open7.html

read Early 2007 Open Letter section, some interesting observation from one of the most tallented and unique accomplished musicians and professionals of our time (all the freaky quirkiness aside).

quote:

To demonstrate that this wasn't an isolated case, another writer begged me to have some of my new remasterings pressed on vinyl. He ended with a familiar comment, that while he knows CDs have become the norm, he much prefers "the warmth of vinyl over digital -- which enhances the sound experience", and that vinyl is actually making a comeback currently. I've also saved my reply to post here below the last one: Please let me beg you to keep an open mind on this topic. Some original CDs WERE hard and nasty, for many extracurricular reasons. Eventually they became a lot more transparent than any LP (which I used to cut for a living, and know the old roller coaster medium too well). After decades of gradual improvements and refinements to digital recording, the old arguments have become "beliefs without proof", like the folks who claim we never went to the moon, or that Roswell is the site of an alien landing. Since you do like the warmth factor of older gear, why not buy a good used tube amp/preamp on eBay, play your CDs through that? (It's called class-A harmonic distortion, containing BOTH odd and even harmonics, and can sound lovely and warm, although it's not actually "pure.") I've A/B tested my masters against all the media, and LP and Cassette now are simply inferior, dated, although not without a very honest nostalgia factor (let's hear it for nostalgia!). Until I made the series of double-blind, carefully calibrated tests (several times), I had no grasp of the reality of audio reproduction (personal confession: for several years I hated all the early digital sound I'd heard). Memory and pure subjectivity play tricks on us all the time, and NOT just in audio. We have to guard against reinforcing our current beliefs and biases. That's why the scientific method was invented -- to guard against the natural human ability to see/hear only what we expect to. Would I lie to you about something this important?

Thought I'd rekindle the flames of dialogue about vinyl vs cd.

discuss

same mate i regret going vinyl also..spend soo much more, i would have rather gotten some CDJ's....but w/e..should have posted this in the vinyl vs CD thread instead

It's all subjective anyway

I like mixing with vinyl alot more than CD's, it just feels better. I don't really care about the difference in sound quality etc. as long as it doesn't make my ears bleed, the only bad thing about them (right now) is the cost. Have lots of problems getting new records right now

Theres always digital vinyl solutions.. torq,ssl,traktor

im personally goin to torq from just burnin cds

quote:

Originally posted by stan229 Theres always digital vinyl solutions.. torq,ssl,traktor im personally goin to torq from just burnin cds

Yeah, I was gonna suggest this as well. It's the best of both words. You can still use your decks and not have to buy expensive vinyls for every track you want.

Unless money is not a factor, there's really no good reason for going straight vinyl these days if you're just starting off.

torq sux

quote:

Originally posted by discobiscuit torq sux

i just ordered it

i hate it..at home i have vinyl..at work i use CD's.....so when i wanna use my stuff at work, I have to carry all the crates up and down a bunch of stairs...and yeah..you don;t think vinyls weigh a lot, until you have to carry like 5 crates of them up and down a building

Re: I think I'm done with vinyl (my short forray into the hype)

quote:

1. Vinyl is a pain in the a$$ - from the point of "which stylus" to cleaning the records, to even shopping for records, I see it as a bad investment of time, money and energy

All a matter of preference, really. From my point of view, having started out on vinyl before CD decks were what they are today, I find CDs a pain in the arse. I suppose if I started on CDs I'd think the same way you do

quote:

CD sounded crisp, clear, punchy and had more presense than brand new vinyl. Vinyl tended to sound more muddy at lower frequencies and actually felt more muted. (Yes, we did calibrate the decks and cartridge before hand).

Believe it or not, you are absolutely correct, and that's exactly why some people prefer vinyl. The somewhat muted sound and less articulate bass response is better suited to large sound systems at high amplitudes, and provides a "classic" sound that is unique. Technically, CDs do have better response, providing a more accurate rendition, but taste is just that; a preference rather than a technicality.

quote:

All the nonsense about proper calibration of stylus, cleaning records, properly handling the records, yada yada yada - PAIN PAIN PAIN.

I suppose it is nonsense. Calibration of a turntable takes me almost no time, especially using the ortofon "pen shells" and record cleaning is super easy if you (or some etards) haven't spilled a soda in your record bag. Record handling is no different than CDs... scratch either one, they're toast. Atleast the record is more likely to be atleast partially playable after scratching..

quote:

I can certainly see the true reason why so many swear by vinyl - when you've invested over $10 or more into LP that has maybe 2 or 3 songs, it's hard to admit and say "I'm a moron for spending this kind of cash, so I'll convince others that my choice is right".

I don't see the big difference in media price. 2-3$ a track seems the going rate for uncompressed digital downloads, and that leaves making the media up to me. CD singles cost about the same as LPs... I've got most my new vinyl for 6-8$ each, much of it secondhand for 2-4$ a plate. Heck, I once walked away with 50 good plates for $120.. Of course, you can get the same deals with CDs, too...

Good CD decks aren't exactly cheap, either... 1200's are still less money than equally good CD decks, and are basically sure to last longer.

In the end, it's truly a matter of preference.

IMHO, vinyl has been around a long time and will be sticking around. On the other hand, CDs have a limited lifespan and soon we will see DVD-Audio or some other format take over the digital world. The digital marketplace is fast changing, and will continue to be so. Many of us vinyl diehards are waiting for the next thing to evolve... something that's atleast 24/96, which will take away any last remaining (minor) tinge of digital artifacts, and for it to become popular and mainstream. I think once that happens, providing a more evolved digital platform that stores more than 700mb on a plater at higher bitrates, digital is going to be even more popular. Personally, I can't see investing 1000$+ in CD decks that I will just want to upgrade in the near future when DVD-audio or something similar takes over.

There is a certain nostalgia w/ wax for lots of people. There are unexplainable factors for buying wax aside from sound quality, etc. At least appreciate it for what it is despite the downsides. We would not be where we are today without wax, some of the best DJs alive still prefer wax. If people want to spin wax... let them. If you claim people were misleading you into buying wax, don't mislead other people to buy CDs.

I went from full computer setup( ableton ), to CDs and then finally to vinyl. I know for most people its the otherway around but for me djing doesnt feel like djing without a record. I dont care what anyone else uses to mix tracks as long as the crowd and I enjoy the music.

quote:

Originally posted by stan229 i just ordered it

i'm sooo sorry... so what was the deciding factor? if you were looking for a program stable enough to use in a club; with consistent pinpoint response, i'm afraid you made the wrong choice. if you were looking to save a couple-hundred bills, you made the right choice.

I'm not a big fan of M-Audio products, but I've been using torq for about lil less than a year now, because it's the cheaper alternative to Serato.

I have to say I'm very satisfied with the purchase. It never caused any problems.. Why wouldn't it be suitable for club use?



Anyways, back to the subject.

I use Vinyls, CD's, Vinyl/CD's on Torq... I would have to say the feel of a vinyl is so much better to mix on though. Not that CD's suck.. Maybe i prefer the vinyls more, because I first learned to mix on them. Although collecting vinyls cost me alot of money, each new track that I bought meant so much more to me than buying a CD or simply downloading mp3's. Kinda hard to explain, but anyways, they both have their goods and bads. It would be great to see more DJ's using vinyls in clubs. I rarely see any these days..

I would not advise playing all records anymore to anyone. I really respect it, but I have so much more music on CD and it is very easy to take with me both to gigs and also just for everyday listening. I don�t know of an ipod for 12" yet, and ripping is a pain in the ass.

But, I still buy records. Generally only records that are not released digitally, or vintage records. Occasionally though I will buy a record because I like it a lot and want to have a physical copy of it - a "record" of someone�s musical expression in the truest sense.

I have never understood the point of CDJs. Why not just get a laptop with an external soundcard and a MIDI controller to replace the jog wheels?

Yeah its kind of like buying a Mac then going WTF? My Apple crazed friend was completely full of shit.

My experience learning to play music on vinyl was invaluable but it's pretty much obselete these days, save a relatively small amount of labels.


This current generation of DJs just doesn't understand vinyl the same way.

quote:

Originally posted by Watts I have never understood the point of CDJs. Why not just get a laptop with an external soundcard and a MIDI controller to replace the jog wheels?

Because you don't have any first hand experience with any of those products you mentioned.

for some reason I learned all my vinyl tracks a lot better than my digital ones. I can barely remember 2 of the 11 - 15 I buy a week. but with vinyl, I'd buy a bunch of releases and have em all memorized.



but yea its all personal preference. im stickin with cd's just because they are lighter, and cheaper as I never buy full releases anymore.

With vinyl, there was always a much stronger feeling of possession over your tracks. You knew that when you bought your copy of a record, you were now in possession of one of possibly only 1,000 copies floating around all over the world. With each digital download, you never know how many other people are in possession of that same track. Maybe only 1,000. Maybe 100,000.

Also, the sense of investment and the accompanying familiarity is gone with digital downloads. When each record costs $10 and you know you'll have to wait a few days for it to arrive in the mail, every purchase must be stewed over and consciously acted upon. Now, with tracks only costing about $2 and arriving instantly, we can buy tracks far more impulsively. I used to only buy about 30 records a month back when I was into vinyl 100%, but I knew and loved each of those records inside and out. Now, I sometimes buy about 30 tracks a week, and there are always tracks I immediately regret spending any money on.

quote:

Originally posted by discobiscuit i'm sooo sorry... so what was the deciding factor? if you were looking for a program stable enough to use in a club; with consistent pinpoint response, i'm afraid you made the wrong choice. if you were looking to save a couple-hundred bills, you made the right choice.

You're full of hot air dude.

quote:

Originally posted by spolitta Because you don't have any first hand experience with any of those products you mentioned.

What makes you think that? I've used vinyl, CDJs as well as full digital computer-based setups. I agree with him. If your going digital, you might as well just use a PC.

I started with 1200's, which I still own and use from time to time, but i mostly use SSL with CDJ's. All my hundreds if not thousands of records are just sitting there collecting dust. But I'll tell you what, from time to time, I like to shop around for rare hard to find old school techno records. Just two weeks ago, I finally found the one old school TETRIS track from 1991!!! Man, that made me so happy.

Vinyl is awesome, but there's just too many problems with the decks and I don't have time to troubleshoot week after week. And by this I mean, RCA's going bad, feedback, broken needles, bad connectors, etc. I like the feel of vinyl, but i prefer the convenience of CDJs. I just convinced my two out of my 3 residencies to install Serato, so it makes it even easier on me. Just show up with my laptop. One of them is even installing a computer, so all I have to do is show up with my portable drive.

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis With each digital download, you never know how many other people are in possession of that same track. Maybe only 1,000. Maybe 100,000.

I am so pleased this is not a factor to me! I mean honestly, are you telling me it affects your enjoyment of a track if more people have it?

Were you the kind of kid that would sit in the playground and not share his toy?!?!

I couldn't give two shits how many people own a track, whether anyone else likes it, or frankly who's responsible for it.

If I like it I get it - and I love it.

Jarv

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