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On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

I've just started taking a course on how to prepare income taxes for the 2008 tax season. I've got the income tax textbook and will be a tax preparer by January. As many of you know, I believe the income tax is unconstitutional and illegal. But here I am going to do the very taxes I despise. I'll be learning the system. The IRS, regulations, deductions, exemptions, hopefully I know the ins and out of the IRS tax system. And let me tell you, they speak in IRS talk, for example, "To claim the credit, complete Form 8880 and attach it to Form 1040. Enter the credit from Form 8880, Line 14 on Form 1040, Line 51. The credit is limited to the tax on Form 1040, Line 46 minus any amounts for credits on Lines 47, 48 , 49, and 50."

Obviously the IRS tax code is not meant to be understood by the average tax payer, which I think is criminal. I think this is the reason most people don't even know the law that states income from labor is not taxable under the constitution. But as I've realized, both by my class, and by my research, the IRS has agents out there who can take your pay check, your home, your car, and all your assets if they think you owe them money. I call this the mafia of government.

Everyone reading this should support the Fair Tax Bill. No more IRS, no more seizures, no more tax evasion, transparency, understandability of the tax code by average citizens! What more could you ask for!?

the tax code is in english


Mr. Pubes

Yeah um the tax code is pretty easy. All what it takes is some reading and easy math. Americans are just lazy on the side note, I have never filled for income taxes..........

The tax code is in english and easy?? Whaaaaaa??!!

The Constitution is but a fraction of the thousands upon thousands of pages of the IRS tax code! Have you guys ever taken a look at it? It's nothing but accounting jibberish (which is why I say its IRS talk)...

Take a look... http://www.fourmilab.ch/uscode/26usc/www/t26.html

Wha?! I was making an ignorant statement

Isn't the IRS an illegal entity?

Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

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Originally posted by Krypton Obviously the IRS tax code is not meant to be understood by the average tax payer, which I think is criminal.

honestly, what the fuck is your problem? name ANY legal framework that's easy for your "average" citizen to understand. That's why we have experts. How would you go about making the requirements and laws easier to understand yet still codify everything you want, and still achieve the objectives you require?

This new chip on your shoulder is becoming quite painful to deal with. Hint: there are a lot of people with a vaster understanding of all these things you've noticed in the last 5 minutes, and you should pay them a little respect before you waltz in here with your undergrad naivete spouting bullshit all over the place.

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As many of you know, I believe the income tax is unconstitutional and illegal

You lassez faire lovers are as bad as the socialists with your poor understanding of mixed economies and the necessity for government.

Just be thankful you aren't learning the Canadian Tax Code; its arguably the most complex in the world...at least for personal income.

I think I read somewhere that Americans pay something like 2,000,000,000 a year just to pay their taxes.

Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I've just started taking a course on how to prepare income taxes for the 2008 tax season. As many of you know, I believe the income tax is unconstitutional and illegal.

good luck on being the worlds most ironic accountant!

you say some of the dumbest sh*t




like the twisted Fir3start3r said, the Canadian tax code is supposedly a nightmare.

...and i always thought the Canadian Central Bank (Bank of Canada) was illegal too. hell, every Canuck north of the Mason Dixon should be rounded up into labor camps and hornswaggled with wet noodles

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Originally posted by eROs.au I think I read somewhere that Americans pay something like 2,000,000,000 a year just to pay their taxes.

you mean $2,000,000,000,000.00

it's trillion with a "T"

Federal tax receipts grew 6.7 percent in fiscal 2007 to a record $2.568 trillion.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you mean $2,000,000,000,000.00 it's trillion with a "T" Federal tax receipts grew 6.7 percent in fiscal 2007 to a record $2.568 trillion.

I think that he meant to have them prepared by an accountant/tax attorney, not what they payed. I don't know if the figure was right, but that's the way i read it.

Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN honestly, what the fuck is your problem? name ANY legal framework that's easy for your "average" citizen to understand. That's why we have experts. How would you go about making the requirements and laws easier to understand yet still codify everything you want, and still achieve the objectives you require? This new chip on your shoulder is becoming quite painful to deal with. Hint: there are a lot of people with a vaster understanding of all these things you've noticed in the last 5 minutes, and you should pay them a little respect before you waltz in here with your undergrad naivete spouting bullshit all over the place.

Ugh, I think I threw up in my mouth...

I'm glad you rely on experts to determine how much of your paycheck is taken from you. Why shouldn't the tax code be understandable for the average citizen? Are you saying only a select few should understand a system that affects ALL people? Are you that elitist? How about a flat sales tax and nothing else. Do you know how easy is it to understand that? Why do you cling to fervently to the status quo which obviously is disfunctional??

Please, spare me your bullshit and if there something specific you disagree with, by all means, provide the counter point. I could care less what you think about my education level...

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You lassez faire lovers are as bad as the socialists with your poor understanding of mixed economies and the necessity for government.

I love how you assume I advocate anarchism. Let me help you understand. I don't advocate no government. I advocate the responsibility of government to remain only the protection of life, liberty, and private property. I also advocate a much simpler tax system. One where people know what they owe without having to go to an "expert" as you so love doing. I want a representative tax system, one where the revenue does not go to paying the Federal Reserve interest. I really don't understand why you would want things to remain the same...

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good luck on being the worlds most ironic accountant! you say some of the dumbest sh*t like the twisted Fir3start3r said, the Canadian tax code is supposedly a nightmare. ...and i always thought the Canadian Central Bank (Bank of Canada) was illegal too. hell, every Canuck north of the Mason Dixon should be rounded up into labor camps and hornswaggled with wet noodles

What's wrong with trying to make the system simple? How about making a counter-argument, instead of these cute little attempts at a personal attack, really...

Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

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Originally posted by Krypton Everyone reading this should support the Fair Tax Bill. No more IRS, no more seizures, no more tax evasion, transparency, understandability of the tax code by average citizens! What more could you ask for!?

Do you own a house?? Land?? Do you have a good job??

and lay off the IRS lil man, Don't hate on them dudes.

Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

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Originally posted by LazFX Do you own a house?? Land?? Do you have a good job?? and lay off the IRS lil man, Don't hate on them dudes.

I don't think so. The IRS can kiss my ass!!

It's a bloated bureaucracy that should be abolished. They tax our labor, which under the constitution is not taxable. Then, to protect their interests, they call people who point this out, "lunatics". Sorry, but they need to show us where in the constitution they can tax my labor.

A flat national sales tax would make the tax system so much simplier, easier to understand, and CHEAPER!! Think about all that IRS beauracracy that cost billions of dollars to run in admin, supplies, salaries, of all those over 100,000 IRS employees.

Come on guys, there are way better ways to run this country than the status quo today!!

Re: Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

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Originally posted by Krypton Ugh, I think I threw up in my mouth...

good. its about time you had something in your mouth that wasn't a conspiracy theorist's cock.

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I'm glad you rely on experts to determine how much of your paycheck is taken from you.

hahahaha. yeah, same as i rely on an expert to determine if my radiator needs a new hose, or if i should cut down on my cholesterol, or how to replace the pipes in my house. idiot.

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Why shouldn't the tax code be understandable for the average citizen? Are you saying only a select few should understand a system that affects ALL people? Are you that elitist?

again with the putting of words in my mouth. i like you, you remind me when i was an arrogant undergrad with no fucking idea about anything. i didnt say the tax code shouldn't be understandable by the average citizen, im saying it never will be. shit, should the constitution be understood by the average citizen? why do you rely on the supreme court to interpret it then you clown? laws and legal frameworks require relevant experts, that's just how it is. go on, go and design a tax code that everyone can grasp yet is actually useful at the same time. only some ignorant fool in first year would claim this is possible.

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How about a flat sales tax and nothing else. Do you know how easy is it to understand that? Why do you cling to fervently to the status quo which obviously is disfunctional??

no. i dont agree with flat sales taxes. who said i clinged to anything? dysfunctional is spelt with a "y" by the way. hey, if we want an easy to understand system, why not have no tax system at all? i am amazed that a co-called economics major is so interested in such immature and adolescent changes to the tax code. you start parroting these useless ideas in class and they're all going to laugh at you. grow up.

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Please, spare me your bullshit and if there something specific you disagree with, by all means, provide the counter point. I could care less what you think about my education level...

ok: fact is, if you have a PAYG type system, with corporate taxes and capital gains et al, the tax code will always be too complicated for your average person. that's just the way it is. complex systems (of any kind) require more study than your average person is willing to put into it. that's just a fact of life.

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I love how you assume I advocate anarchism.

anyone that denies the government the right to levy taxes, who argues that taxation is a form of theft, believes in anarchism. you can't have it both ways mate.

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Let me help you understand. I don't advocate no government. I advocate the responsibility of government to remain only the protection of life, liberty, and private property. I also advocate a much simpler tax system. One where people know what they owe without having to go to an "expert" as you so love doing. I want a representative tax system, one where the revenue does not go to paying the Federal Reserve interest. I really don't understand why you would want things to remain the same...

Look mate, I understand where you're coming from. You and any number of other idealistic libertarians love to jump into polsci or economics 101 and champion antiquated and rather ignorant opinions that would never fly in reality. You used to be a neo-con, now you love conspiracy theories and have an undercooked understanding of economics and how much business and the citizenry depend on government funding.

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What's wrong with trying to make the system simple? How about making a counter-argument, instead of these cute little attempts at a personal attack, really...

for the tax system to be useful the tax system has to be complicated. that's just the way it is. Your argument is the equivalent of trying to replace a PC with an abacus because not everyone knows how to install a motherboard.

Re: Re: Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN good. its about time you had something in your mouth that wasn't a conspiracy theorist's cock.

No, I got sick from the neo-conservative bullshit thats coming from your mouth...

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hahahaha. yeah, same as i rely on an expert to determine if my radiator needs a new hose, or if i should cut down on my cholesterol, or how to replace the pipes in my house. idiot.

LOL, I really wouldn't expect a foreigner such as yourself to know two shits about the US constitution which clearly states the government is at the service of the people, not the other way around...

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i didnt say the tax code shouldn't be understandable by the average citizen, im saying it never will be.

I BEG to differ...

quote:

shit, should the constitution be understood by the average citizen? why do you rely on the supreme court to interpret it then you clown? laws and legal frameworks require relevant experts, that's just how it is.

If the people don't understand their rights, then what the fuck is point of a democracy? I rely on the supreme court to make sure the laws passed by congress are constitutional. Why else would I rely on them? So does that mean I should just not care? Taxes and the constitution should always be understood by the average citizens. The most dangerous thing to a democracy is when the people don't know their rights.

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go on, go and design a tax code that everyone can grasp yet is actually useful at the same time. only some ignorant fool in first year would claim this is possible.

Don't worry, experts have already done this. It's called the "Fairtax", and another one is the "negative income tax". Google those two alternative tax systems. There are alternatives to the IRS, and I really don't know why you hold such a loyalty to it...

quote:

no. i dont agree with flat sales taxes. who said i clinged to anything? dysfunctional is spelt with a "y" by the way. hey, if we want an easy to understand system, why not have no tax system at all? i am amazed that a co-called economics major is so interested in such immature and adolescent changes to the tax code. you start parroting these useless ideas in class and they're all going to laugh at you. grow up.

Let's not worry about typos... K??

Wow but sorry my views didn't come out of thin air. The flat tax is supported by numerous senators and representatives, and Milton Friedman advocated negative income taxes. It is because of what I have learned studying economics, and how the system works, that I'm so opposed to its dysfunctionality. I see that the system is broken, and politicians are running on exactly the issues that I highlight. That the system is broken. Sorry, but I'm very much grown up...

quote:

ok: fact is, if you have a PAYG type system, with corporate taxes and capital gains et al, the tax code will always be too complicated for your average person. that's just the way it is. complex systems (of any kind) require more study than your average person is willing to put into it. that's just a fact of life.

Um, so what's to stop those very same people who draw up the tax code from making sure it follows the constitution, if no one is able to understand the code? Don't you see that this opens the door to abuses?

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anyone that denies the government the right to levy taxes, who argues that taxation is a form of theft, believes in anarchism. you can't have it both ways mate.

Maybe you've been misunderstanding me...

I don't advocate NO taxation. I advocate no INCOME taxation. Is this why your so pissed? You think I want no government, no taxes, etc.? You've completely misunderstand me then...

quote:

Look mate, I understand where you're coming from. You and any number of other idealistic libertarians love to jump into polsci or economics 101 and champion antiquated and rather ignorant opinions that would never fly in reality. You used to be a neo-con, now you love conspiracy theories and have an undercooked understanding of economics and how much business and the citizenry depend on government funding.

Uh, nope. I want a fair taxation system, and a government that respects the constitution. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am not an anarchist. The cases I highlight have been chronicled in newspapers and authoritative sources. For example, the Aldrich Conference on which the Fed was created. It's documented, not a "theory". UFO conspiracies. Now, THAT'S a conspiracy theory...

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for the tax system to be useful the tax system has to be complicated. that's just the way it is. Your argument is the equivalent of trying to replace a PC with an abacus because not everyone knows how to install a motherboard.

I strongly disagree. The taxation system can be simplified 100 fold if the people of this country will just muster the political will to push for it, and that will is slowly building. More than half of the senate voted to explore the FairTax measure. I call that a very substantial interest. Taxes don't have to be complicated, unless you want to continue this bureaucratic system of exemptions, deductions, and classifications.

How about a balanced fiscal policy? A 23% flat sales tax is progressive just as the IRS model is. The better the economy, the more taxes the government receives. You can still send tax refunds to those who need it. I really don't understand your logic in keeping a dysfunctional, bureaucratic, and unconstitutional tax system in which most Americans hate.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

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Originally posted by Krypton No, I got sick from the neo-conservative bullshit thats coming from your mouth...

i am so far from a neo-con its just ridiculous, so i have no idea what you're talking about.

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LOL, I really wouldn't expect a foreigner such as yourself to know two shits about the US constitution which clearly states the government is at the service of the people, not the other way around...

well duh. of course. where did i say it was otherwise? and i love your inherent racism there mate. i guarantee you foreigners know a shitload more about the US than the US knows about the foreigners. it goes hand in hand with being the most powerful country in the world mate.

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If the people don't understand their rights, then what the fuck is point of a democracy? I rely on the supreme court to make sure the laws passed by congress are constitutional. Why else would I rely on them? So does that mean I should just not care? Taxes and the constitution should always be understood by the average citizens. The most dangerous thing to a democracy is when the people don't know their rights.

are you trying to obfuscate the issue? i am saying the law (which includes tax law!) is a complicated instrument, and that it requires those that have studied it properly to get a real grasp of what it is all about. this doesn't prevent anyone from filing their own tax return, nor defending themselves in court. i really think a comment like "Taxes and the constitution should always be understood by the average citizens" to be pretty naive. people use things everyday that they are not truly aware of, its a nice rallying cry but pretty empty in comparison to reality. hell, australia doesn't even have a constitution in the same way that the US does, yet we don't have a patriot act either

quote:

Wow but sorry my views didn't come out of thin air. The flat tax is supported by numerous senators and representatives, and Milton Friedman advocated negative income taxes. It is because of what I have learned studying economics, and how the system works, that I'm so opposed to its dysfunctionality. I see that the system is broken, and politicians are running on exactly the issues that I highlight. That the system is broken. Sorry, but I'm very much grown up...

whoa, i never said they came out of thin air. what they came out of what jumping into first year and suddenly discovering all these (very old) issues with the tax system. the system might certainly be broken, but abolishing income tax is not (of course, just my opinion) the solution.

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Um, so what's to stop those very same people who draw up the tax code from making sure it follows the constitution, if no one is able to understand the code? Don't you see that this opens the door to abuses?

how about the fact that those that make the laws are under scrutiny from those that do understand them? god, governments the world over make laws everyday that are not understood by the populace. the whole point of government is to manage the technicalities of executive and legislastive power and (in theory) represent the populace.

i dont see how you think tax law is any different/worse than any other part of legislation in regards to its incomprehensibility? i mean, your error in the other thread arguing the constitution does not give congress the power to tax people shows that even the very bright members of your country don't necessarily understand all there is to know. and i wonder why you expect "average" people to be able to? nobody but a student (or some nerd that hovers over a computer all day like trancer x) has that kind of time.

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Maybe you've been misunderstanding me... I don't advocate NO taxation. I advocate no INCOME taxation. Is this why your so pissed? You think I want no government, no taxes, etc.? You've completely misunderstand me then...

ok, i have misunderstood you. i read your arguments to mean that the government has no right to tax people, therefore no taxation. but, to be honest, i have yet to see an alternative taxation system that is even close to being "fair". taxing poor people the same amount on an item as rich people is not fair to me.

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Uh, nope. I want a fair taxation system, and a government that respects the constitution. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am not an anarchist. The cases I highlight have been chronicled in newspapers and authoritative sources. For example, the Aldrich Conference on which the Fed was created. It's documented, not a "theory". UFO conspiracies. Now, THAT'S a conspiracy theory...

yes, but nobody asides from you or trancer or other conspiracy buffs seem to think the fed reserve is some evil private entity manipulating the country. i know for certainty that our reserve does not, so im doubting that yours does either.

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I strongly disagree. The taxation system can be simplified 100 fold if the people of this country will just muster the political will to push for it, and that will is slowly building. More than half of the senate voted to explore the FairTax measure. I call that a very substantial interest. Taxes don't have to be complicated, unless you want to continue this bureaucratic system of exemptions, deductions, and classifications.

fair point.

quote:

How about a balanced fiscal policy? A 23% flat sales tax is progressive just as the IRS model is. The better the economy, the more taxes the government receives. You can still send tax refunds to those who need it. I really don't understand your logic in keeping a dysfunctional, bureaucratic, and unconstitutional tax system in which most Americans hate.

yes, and the worse the economy, the less able the government is to manage it when its in trouble. don't let your idolisation of the market blind you to the fact that the market needs government as much as the government needs a healthy market

see, im the opposite. i am against all forms of sales tax (except for maybe smoking products) but argue for a fair income tax. nobody is saying taxation in the US shouldn't be changed, just that your insinuation that the taxation system is deliberately complicated for some sinister plan is simply absurd.

Ok, I think we've just been misunderstanding each other..

Regardless of my thoughts as to the reason why the IRS tax system is complicated, there is no debate even from IRS proponents that the system is extremely complicated.

What I want is a simplified system such as the FairTax or Negative Income Tax so that people will much much better understand how they are being taxed. Do you know how many tax evasion cases and unwanted audits are made by the IRS? Thousands a year.

quote:

are you trying to obfuscate the issue? i am saying the law (which includes tax law!) is a complicated instrument, and that it requires those that have studied it properly to get a real grasp of what it is all about. this doesn't prevent anyone from filing their own tax return, nor defending themselves in court. i really think a comment like "Taxes and the constitution should always be understood by the average citizens" to be pretty naive. people use things everyday that they are not truly aware of, its a nice rallying cry but pretty empty in comparison to reality. hell, australia doesn't even have a constitution in the same way that the US does, yet we don't have a patriot act either

By no means am I obfuscating anything. I'm just saying if people know what their rights are, it's much harder for the authorities to violate those rights. Making the tax system easier to understand makes it much harder for the tax authority to fleece the population. Currently, the highest 1% of the country get the best tax breaks, and I personally know of a few strategies for getting out of the 35% tax of the highest bracket.

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quote:

see, im the opposite. i am against all forms of sales tax (except for maybe smoking products) but argue for a fair income tax. nobody is saying taxation in the US shouldn't be changed, just that your insinuation that the taxation system is deliberately complicated for some sinister plan is simply absurd.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. But hey, if you support a "fair income tax", check out the negative income tax...
http://www.econlib.org/Library/Enc/...eIncomeTax.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

No tax system may be perfect, but the US can do MUCH better than the IRS model.

Re: Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I don't think so. The IRS can kiss my ass!!

no matter what......... You will be the one to Kiss that Ass....

guaranteed

Re: Re: Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

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Originally posted by LazFX no matter what......... You will be the one to Kiss that Ass.... guaranteed

I wish they would send agents to my front door. They'll get a big "F U" to their faces!!

...before I run out the back door..

Re: Re: Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN good. its about time you had something in your mouth that wasn't a conspiracy theorist's cock.

You ever stop and notice how often you mention conspiracies?

I'd go so far as to say that you're obsessed.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On the Inside - Taxes and the IRS

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby You ever stop and notice how often you mention conspiracies? I'd go so far as to say that you're obsessed.

well, he's the one raising them. what's a man to do? but yeah, the new age tendency to go all "internet detective" with one eye closed does grate against my respect for real research and knowledge.

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Originally posted by Mr. Pubes the tax code is in english Mr. Pubes

It's cool that you registered a new screen name for this board just so that you could say that

Former IRS Criminal Investigation Division Special Agent Joe Bannister at a Ron Paul Rally in Mountain View, CA

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