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Oh, about that reduction in Iraqi violence argument

We've had a few posts here by our wonderful newbie, LatinLover, about how terrific the SURGE! has been and why it's gone so gosh darn well. I've argued in those threads about the fact that the primary issue of the SURGE! stated by our Administration was to clear the path for the political process and reconciliation in the Iraqi government to go forward.

That hasn't gone as planned, not by any stretch.

Nevertheless violence has gone down, and by both the darn librul media and the conservative blogs, it would appear that all is owed to the increase in troop levels. So they have all collectively swatted each other on the ass (it's not gay, Senator Craig, if you say "Good job!" after the swat), and felt so incredibly vindicated by the idea of the SURGE! that was created by a neocon warmongerer at the uber-neocon conservative think tank chairman, Fred Kagan of the American Enterprise Institute.

But there's something that our darn librul media and our conservative "friends" seemed to have overlooked. If we cast our minds back to the beginning of August, we see this article in the NYTimes that says this:

quote:

Attacks on American-led forces using a lethal type of roadside bomb said to be supplied by Iran reached a new high in July, according to the American military. The devices, known as explosively formed penetrators, were used to carry out 99 attacks last month and accounted for a third of the combat deaths suffered by the American-led forces, according to American military officials. "July was an all-time high," Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, the No. 2 commander in Iraq, said in an interview, referring to strikes with such devices. Such bombs, which fire a semi-molten copper slug that can penetrate the armor on a Humvee and are among the deadliest weapons used against American forces, are used almost exclusively by Shiite militants. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/w...08military.html

Now keep in mind that this was the deadliest summer in Iraq our troops have ever gone through. And those bombs were almost exclusively used by Shiite militias, the same militias according to that article that are members of al-Sadr�s Mahdi Army.

Three weeks later, it was reported that 50 Muslim pilgrims were slaughtered in the violence in Karbala. As a consequence, al-Sadr announced that he was going to suspend offensive operations for 6 months:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...30/wiraq130.xml

and it took everyone by surprise:

quote:

The surprise statement regarding his notorious Mahdi army, which is responsible for much of Iraq's sectarian blood-letting, not only caught British and American commanders off-guard but appeared to have surprised Baghdad officials too. Mowaffak al-Rubbaie, Iraq's national security adviser, said Baghdad would only welcome the move if Sadr's lieutenants stop attacks and their attempts to "blow up" the Iraqi government. "I will see on the ground what is going to happen," he said. "It is good news if it is true. If it happens it will reduce violence in the country a great deal."

Then on September 15, our military stated how incredibly important this news was:

quote:

"Muqtada al-Sadr's declaration holds the potential to reduce criminal activity and help reunite Iraqis separated by ethno-sectarian violence and fear," the U.S. military said. :: An end to Mehdi Army "would also be an important step in helping Iraqi authorities focus greater attention on achieving the political and economic solutions necessary for progress and less on dealing with criminal activity, sectarian violence, kidnappings, assassinations, and attacks on Iraqi and coalition forces," the military said. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

From then on, the numbers of troop deaths began to decrease fast, from 84 in August, to 65 in September, and last month down to 38. Our military argued for months on end about the Iranian-supplied Shia fighters were the most serious threat to the U.S. forces, and now that threat stopped fighting on its own.

Then just a few days back, the WaPost had this to say:

quote:

The number of explosively formed projectiles (EFPs) that have been detonated or found in Iraq has dropped by nearly half in recent months, from a peak of 99 in July to 53 last month, Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, the commander in charge of day-to-day military operations in Iraq, said yesterday in a vihttp://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2007/11/mccain-in-south.htmldeoconference with Pentagon reporters. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7110102362.html

But of course that's not what the neocons and Bushies tell. Instead, they give the credit to something else altogether:

quote:

McCain told students at Coastal Carolina University that the United States has had "astonishing success" in Iraq as a result of the military strategy now in place. http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitic...n-in-south.html

No mention about our biggest threat quitting on their own.

And of course our dumbshit president had this spin down as well:

quote:

At the graduation ceremony, the president said that since the troop increase reached full strength in June, the number of roadside bombs had been cut by half. He said U.S. military deaths were at their lowest in 19 months. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ack=1&cset=true

Again with no mention of al-Sadr's army manning down on its own accord.

So can we attribute ALL reductions of troop deaths to the SURGE!? Can we honestly attribute ANY reductions of troop deaths given the fact that our enemy stepped down all on it's own?

And what will happen when al-Sadr decides to start back up again? What will happen when we are forced to redeploy the SURGE! troops because their 15 month tours are coming to an end? Oh, I'm sure Bush will think of something clever, right?

way to go ruining my cautious optimism opus

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN way to go ruining my cautious optimism opus

he's not trying to affect your optimism he's trying to spin the onus.

it's a strawman to even think that "all" or "most" violence in Iraq is caused by one group or one tactic.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo he's not trying to affect your optimism he's trying to spin the onus. it's a strawman to even think that "all" or "most" violence in Iraq is caused by one group or one tactic.

Okay, then do you support this president and his various conservative mouthpieces/writers/bloggers who trump up the SURGE! being the exclusive result of our troop numbers with narry a mention of al-Sadr's army backing down on its own?

Because you really can't have that argument both ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo he's not trying to affect your optimism he's trying to spin the onus. it's a strawman to even think that "all" or "most" violence in Iraq is caused by one group or one tactic.

well, i for one went nuts reading all kinds of different sources regarding the death statistics as well as osama's complaint that some of those in iraq need to forget their tribal loyalties.

i never came across anything re opus' post. for realisms sake, it should certainly be included in the overall discussion, and not omitted to give an illusory picture of the surge's success.

MissOctopus1,

You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground. Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq. It bothers you that finally we are in the right track. IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality... it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America... let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces? What have you done to make this country a better place? From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover MissOctopus1, You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover MissOctopus1, You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground. Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq. It bothers you that finally we are in the right track. IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality... it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America... let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces? What have you done to make this country a better place? From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh

opus is one of the brightest and conscientious posters we have you tool

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN opus is one of the brightest and conscientious posters we have you tool

You call him bright? Hey if thats the case Im going to tell my neighbors dog to start posting here. Trust me he wont be bright... the dog will be a genius if Opus is bright

Latin, I find it cute how you try so hard to derail a thread that undermines your Bush-supporting arguments (arguments that you never support yourself). I'm going to take the bait just this once, just so I can get a few things off my chest. Enjoy the derailment while you can. Rest assured it won't happen again.

With that said, off we go:


[rant]

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover MissOctopus1, You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground.

Did I say you can come upstairs?

It's little shits like you that have no business calling people like myself "anti-American" when you blindly follow in lockstep with your idiot President.

Just a little bit of analysis outside your narrow scope of view, just one ounce of it and you jump with your stupid fucking "anti-American" slander.

Seriously, are you even an American yourself? It's obvious that you refuse to even support your President and his war cause by refusing to join up with the military and fight for that cause.

But you want anyone here to actually take your troll-like posts seriously? Then do us a favor for once in your fucking life and attack the merits of the argument, rather than your stupid ad hominem attacks at the poster.

You're beyond tedious and pathetic.

quote:

Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq.

Seriously, troll, fuck off. I call our policies out with evidence to support my arguments. I root for America and the ground we stand on far more than your stupid fucking little immature ass could ever fathom.

Get an argument. Get a life. Fuck off. Simple.

quote:

It bothers you that finally we are in the right track.

It bothers me that overly-simplistic idiots like you ignore the argument I posed and attack me personally. What the hell is your purpose here again?

quote:

IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality...

Seriously, fuck off. Join your cause, if you're even an American, or shut your fucking hypocritical ass up. I've got dried-up, crumpled shits in my Depends diaper that utilize arguments better than you.

quote:

it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America...

Don't you even fucking talk about America, you mindless twit. You have no comprehension what it means to be an American, let alone point your little 8th grade finger at others in accusation.

I disagree with this president's policies strongly. I support my arguments with evidence.

I disagree with the rhetoric of this president and his followers strongly. I support my arguments against him and them with evidence.

You've got nothing to offer to counter that. Not ever. Not one fucking time have you offered anything worthwhile you little fucking 19-year old troll.

quote:

let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces?

Why would I volunteer for a war cause I do not agree with dumbass? Does that thought ever occur to you?

quote:

What have you done to make this country a better place?

Quite a lot, actually. But my volunteer time, money, and profession are not germane to this discussion, are they?

Or are you saying that the only thing that's good for this country is to join the military, something that you little chickenhawk chickenshits refuse to even bother doing?

quote:

From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh

Seriously, back downstairs you fucking troll. You offer nothing worthwhile to this post, this forum, or this space on earth.

[/rant]

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1

Great post. I've wondered the same thing - how the drawback of Shia forces in Iraq got no media attention even as casualties have apparently gone down. Thanks for connecting the dots here.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover MissOctopus1,

Latin, your credibility is waning with these kinds of posts...

quote:

You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground.

He never "denied progress being made on the ground" - quite the opposite, he acknowledged it and then questioned the reason why progress is being made. It's a frankly pre-Enlightenment mentality to never question the reasons things happen.

quote:

Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq. It bothers you that finally we are in the right track. IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality... it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America...

I really fail to understand how you infer such things. If someone is critical of United States policy they are suddenly an enemy of the entire country? Whatever happened to freedom to exchange political ideas, L? That's what America actually stands for - if you really support America you would support the ability to question whether the status quo is really the best we can do. In my humble opinion, the United States is far from perfect, and anyone who argues otherwise is impeding our ability to focus on becoming a more perfect union.

quote:

let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces? What have you done to make this country a better place?

Hardly even relevant, don't you think? Questioning someone's personal contributions to society on an online forum? For someone who has refused to answer any questions about your own personal life assertions, that is a fine line to tread between fair criticism and blatant hypocrisy.

quote:

From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh

And there goes the last shred of your credibility. Using the name of a right-wing nutjob to slander someone you think is liberal, all because you happen to disagree on the best direction for United States foreign policy? Gain some perspective man. You could contribute to these forums if you stick to argumentation and refrained from posts devoid of anything intellectual whatsoever. No one cares what you think personally of Opus or anyone else. We care what you think about issues, and for whatever reason, you smugly refuse to engage in a real debate about anything. I was one of the people that defended you when things came to a head last month, but I am beginning to regret having stood up for you. You won't win any arguments here by slandering anyone who disagrees with you. And using the word "liberal" as a derogatory term wins as much respect as using "neo-con" or "Nazi" with the same intention.

I touched your nerve didnt I? You have lost your nerves because I hit the truth in this forum in exposing you.

I repeat, it is clear of your Anti-American sentiments in this forum. For all those people that havent put the puzzle together on you Opus,Im going to do it. It is clear that you are in the side of the terrorists, you basically are the speaker of the anti- american voice. your function is basically to discredit any progressive information to help spread the anti american propaganda so it can benefit all the followers of the resistance. You are a disgrace to this country... and im warning you If i was your neighbor I would keep an eye of you. I hope you dont do any stupid shit, you hatred towards our troops is visible. You question their will to win, and instead of cheering for them to continue on the right track you come and discredit them. Shame on you! What made you turn against this country Opus? Why are you spreading propaganda of the harm these terrorist are doing to the iraqi people and our troops.

I repeat, stop aiding the terrorist in aiding them with their propaganda. We should report you do the department of homeland security before you do antyhing stupid

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover I repeat, stop aiding the terrorist in aiding them with their propaganda. We should report you do the department of homeland security before you do antyhing stupid

Please do, they would laugh in your face!

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover I touched your nerve didnt I? You have lost your nerves because I hit the truth in this forum in exposing you.

I lose patience with idiocy, dear twit. That's only nerves lost, which actually they were lost long ago.

And rest assured, that rant was a long time coming. Enjoy the attention like a good little troll that you are. I'll try not to stoop down to your disgusting level too often.

quote:

I repeat, it is clear of your Anti-American sentiments in this forum. For all those people that havent put the puzzle together on you Opus,Im going to do it. It is clear that you are in the side of the terrorists, you basically are the speaker of the anti- american voice.

I'm curious as to why you think your idiot Bush cheerleading voice is somehow to be equating with being "American"?

I've wasted enough time on your idiocy. Support your arguments or troll somewhere else.

quote:

your function is basically to discredit any progressive information to help spread the anti american propaganda so it can benefit all the followers of the resistance.

"The resistance"?

Dumbass - over 2/3 of this great country are against this war. That makes little chickenhawks like you the "resistance", while the rest of us constitute the majority.

Support your arguments or troll somewhere else.

quote:

You are a disgrace to this country...

You're a disgrace to the Republican party and the true Conservative movement for that matter. You represent no one but your idiot self.

More importantly, you disgrace this forum with your irrelevant, unsupported drivel.

And most importantly, with your blind and complete ignorance, you're a disgrace to humanity.

Support your arguments or troll somewhere else.

quote:

and im warning you If i was your neighbor I would keep an eye of you.

I really can't believe I'm even talking to you anymore. You're a fucking idiot.

Warning me?

Keep an eye on me?

There are a number of great totalitarian, paranoid governments on this planet that I think you would fit terrific in. Thankfully, this great country is not one of them. You don't belong here with such paranoia.

But then again, I guess I'd be afraid if I could never support my arguments either if I were you.

quote:

I hope you dont do any stupid shit, you hatred towards our troops is visible.

What was that, chickenhawk? My wife and I both have good friends that are in the military. I have a cousin right now stationed in Iraq on my father's side. My father was in the military and served in Vietnam. My father-in-law served in the military in the Korean War. Both my grandfathers served in WWII.

It's pathetic to see your mindset. Somehow in your twisted sense of logic you seem to think my hatred of the policies that sent my friends and family members to this war is the same as hating my friends and family members serving.

I really tried hard to give you the benefit of the doubt. But it's pretty obvious why your stupid troll-ass got banned three times already:

You

Are

A

Fucking

Idiot.

Support your arguments, Arnold, or go troll somewhere else.

quote:

You question their will to win, and instead of cheering for them to continue on the right track you come and discredit them.

Chickenhawk, I discredit the policies that took them there as well as the rationale as to why the violence is down.

That does NOT equate to me discrediting what they do and the sacrifices they perform.

Now, do you have any supporting evidence to counter my arguments made, or will you continue to try to derail the topic at hand with your bullshit ad hominem attacks at me personally?

Because this shit is old.

quote:

Shame on you!

God help you.

quote:

What made you turn against this country Opus?

What made you become such a complete idiot, Arnold?

What made you get banned three times already, Arnold?

Why do you have a fucking pot leaf walking down the street for your pic, Arnold?

Who the fuck do you think you are to supposedly corner the market on what it is to be an American, chickenhawk?

Because I firmly despise the policies of this President does not equate to me hating the country you fucking twit. Can you possibly comprehend that?

And do you have any supporting evidence to counter my arguments made in my original post, or will you continue to try to derail this thread?

quote:

Why are you spreading propaganda of the harm these terrorist are doing to the iraqi people and our troops.

Why are you too much of a coward to attempt to counter the arguments made?

And do you have any supporting evidence to counter my arguments made in my original post, or will you continue to try to derail this thread?

quote:

I repeat, stop aiding the terrorist in aiding them with their propaganda.

And I repeat - you're a fucking idiot.

And do you have any supporting evidence to counter my arguments made in my original post, or will you continue to try to derail this thread?

quote:

We should report you do the department of homeland security before you do antyhing stupid

Sorry, Adolf, wrong country. It's pretty obvious that you'd fit real nice in that country of old.

And I repeat - you're a fucking idiot.

And do you have any supporting evidence to counter my arguments made in my original post, or will you continue to try to derail this thread?

Latin's rhetoric is limited to slander, and inflammatory language. No debate, just language intended to incite anger.

I think the forum's quality is being ruined by inflammatory trolls like Latinloser... I still call for his bannination for at least his 3rd time on TA..

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Latin's rhetoric is limited to slander, and inflammatory language. No debate, just language intended to incite anger. I think the forum's quality is being ruined by inflammatory trolls like Latinloser... I still call for his bannination for at least his 3rd time on TA..

Just put him on ignore. I still don't think banning somebody for their beliefs, however stupid and juvenile, is a good idea. But it's not like his posts are going to convince anybody of his side - in fact, I think he does a better job of making people believe people like Opus than even Opus can.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Chickenhawk, I discredit the policies that took them there as well as the rationale as to why the violence is down. That does NOT equate to me discrediting what they do and the sacrifices they perform.

you may not realize it but yes it does.

whatever rationale you've come up with as to why the violence is down completely ignores the fact that your troops haven't given Sadr that many options to work with, short of having a platoon of SEALs drag him out of bed in the middle of the night and place a hood over his head.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo whatever rationale you've come up with as to why the violence is down completely ignores the fact that your troops haven't given Sadr that many options to work with, short of having a platoon of SEALs drag him out of bed in the middle of the night and place a hood over his head.

that may be true, however it should still be a part of the debate and also considered in future policy. most of the stuff available says "surge = less violence" and why that might be true, leaving out such important exceptions to that equation reeks of politics to me.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover MissOctopus1, You have revealed your true colors! Its obvious you are an anti-american that questions and blindly denies the progress being made on the ground.

oh fuck off with the progres bullshit please,there is no progress it is a dead end.this admin failed badly and the only they can do is to get the hell out.

quote:

Its obious that you favor and are rooting for the resistance and you hope that America fails in Iraq.

wow so you think 2/3 of the Americans are anti American and pro resistance?

quote:

It bothers you that finally we are in the right track.

LMAO right track?are you refering to the infamous "surge plan"?

quote:

IT disgusts me that you have this type of mentality... it sad that you try to prove a political point instead of the well being of America... let me ask you Miss what have you done for this country? Have you ever volunteered in our arm forces? What have you done to make this country a better place? From the mentality that you have is the reason why we have idiots like Timothy mcveigh

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Just put him on ignore. I still don't think banning somebody for their beliefs, however stupid and juvenile, is a good idea. But it's not like his posts are going to convince anybody of his side - in fact, I think he does a better job of making people believe people like Opus than even Opus can.

I already ignored him, but I see other people responding to him! And then, I have to respond!

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN that may be true, however it should still be a part of the debate and also considered in future policy. most of the stuff available says "surge = less violence" and why that might be true, leaving out such important exceptions to that equation reeks of politics to me.

Opus' rationale is flawed.

leave it to the history books then. right now everybody invested in the effort deserves recognition.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Opus' rationale is flawed.

to be honest i wasn't listening to his rationale, i was just perusing the facts.

quote:

leave it to the history books then. right now everybody invested in the effort deserves recognition.

you won't find an argument from me here, i just hope those that are attempting to take the credit in washington are prepared for Sadr should things change after the 6 months self-imposed ceasefire.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you may not realize it but yes it does.

Then demonstrate how anything I've said specifically regarding the civilian foreign policies made somehow is an attack against the troops who's orders are to follow those said policies.

Don't you fall into that slander category now, Q. Only one per thread, please.

quote:

whatever rationale you've come up with as to why the violence is down completely ignores the fact that your troops haven't given Sadr that many options to work with, short of having a platoon of SEALs drag him out of bed in the middle of the night and place a hood over his head.

You're implying that my argument completely undermines the work of the troops in the SURGE!

Putting the fact that they were a short-term solution to the political process progression for a moment and that they'll soon start to reduce their numbers back to pre-SURGE! levels by next summer, the primary point I am making is that the entire credit for the reduction in troop deaths cannot be fully attributed to the action by the SURGE! alone.

No facts are being ignored on my end, Q. Rather, what's obviously being ignored by your mouthpieces, MSM, and this Administration is that al-Sadr had a very active role in reducing the violence himself, But your group is trying to take all the credit for your think-tank SURGE! idea, which given the evidence presented that is clearly not the case.

So will we be seeing your side give tribute to al-Sadr willingly calling off the violence against our troops for 6 months anytime soon?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Opus' rationale is flawed.

Support your assertion.

quote:

leave it to the history books then. right now everybody invested in the effort deserves recognition.

Including all Americans, by the way. Unfortunately we're going to be paying for this debacle for years, if not decades to come.

And you guys put that future burden, not to mention a birth tax on our future generations as a consequence. Thanks a gob.

It's my speculation that Al-Sadr pulled his malitia off the streets to let the surge concentrate on sunni insurgents. I'm predicting that when the surge is over, shiite militant activity might prick up again.

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