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Your artistic vision

Just some things I've been thinking about for quite a while now.

How strong of a vision do you have about the tracks you're working on? How much feedback are you willing to take into consideration from other people?

I'm just wondering because I keep seeing these threads where people post 2 minute clips into the promotion forum and then ask people what they should be doing next... and I just don't get it. It seems like people obsess too much over production quality and the artistic vision is completely forgotten. In my opinion the vision should be the strongest part of a producer/composer, I'd much rather have an amazing track with adequate production than the other way around.

Ah well, maybe I'm just rambling... any thoughts?

Vision plays a huge part in a track once I sit down to make it. I think "OK, I'm going to make a track in THIS vein.", be it Trance, House, Progressive or whatever. I have to have an idea where I am going as I have never had much success just sitting down and just messing around until I come up with something good. Sometimes you find happy accidents, but most of the time thats within the context of the larger artistic vision for the track.

It seems to me that a large part of what makes the tracks I like is good arrangement and chord structure. I've spent the majority of my time on my recent tracks getting those two things right. Once that is finished, the production quality part becomes a lot easier. So many good tracks in the past might not have had the best production, but it was their melodies and structure that made them great. Granted, that doesn't mean you can slack off on the production side, but there is an acceptable margin there. It doesn't have to be absolutely pristine.

i tend to focus on the artistic side to it which sometimes i spend to much time on and the production lacks slightly. lately ive been concentrating on improving the production quality and i have yet to finish a track. sometimes its probably better to stick with what your doing, if its not broke don't fix it.

i agree with you nik. i think people are a little too wrapped up in making what they think will be commercially successful instead of just making what they like...

My songs are like my kids. Sometimes you just don't see that your kids are shit and you need someone to tell you. Many times I think I hear something amazing only to have someone tell me it's shit. I ask them why they think my song is empty or whatever problem is wrong with my song and take that into consideration, because a lot of people have bad taste in music and are likely to be wrong.

Also, sometimes people just don't know what to add next. Some songs, the muse just takes over you and suddenly you've got a song where it's taken a whole different direction, and I guess some people just didn't expect that and they get stuck. *shrug*

Making a good listenable song imo isn't easy. When adding new elements, that element might sound incoherant to your song. When taking out stuff, it'll sound empty, when you automate something it doesn't turn out the way you want it to be automated etc.

I usually start with a basic idea and let the song lead me to it's finished state. Only problem is that I do get caught up in the production aspect rather quickly because it annoys me, and lose sight of the original intention. By that point I've completely lost my creative groove and have no idea what to do next.

Re: Your artistic vision

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery It seems like people obsess too much over production quality and the artistic vision is completely forgotten.

I think the reason for this lies in the nature of the artistic vision vs. production quality.

Artistic vision is subjective. Now, unless notes are clashing all over the place and there is NO chord structure, you might be out of line to correct someone's 'artistic vision'. It's their vision, and they know what they wrote. However, in the early stages a bit of coaxing in the right direction is nice. It all comes down to whether or not a forum member LIKES the song, since most are in some way likeable.

Production quality is more objective, imo. Here, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that muddy bass and a shitty kick sample were the artist's intentions. But, as we know, after working on a song for some time our ears can get used to the sound. Or, when we have little experience, we don't know what to listen for to get that kick sitting in there right.

Artistic vision (again, unless it's downright dreadful) is going to lean toward opinion, whereas production quality is going to lean toward fact.

For me, artistic vision can't be taught, whereas production methods can. As a result the vision comes with time and experience, and production quality comes from time, experience, and a shitload of advice from other people listening to my tune.

That is exactly why I'm taking a hefty amount of time away from producing. The whole "making it sound clean and perfect" thing has been making me go bonkers. I'm pretty impatient as well, if I feel something is taking too long and it's not coming out clean as far as production goes I will rush it through or just throw it away. I need to go back to watching cheesey sci-fi flicks and get some artistic inspiration and vision back.

Re: Re: Your artistic vision

quote:

Originally posted by 3F05Q For me, artistic vision can't be taught, whereas production methods can. As a result the vision comes with time and experience, and production quality comes from time, experience, and a shitload of advice from other people listening to my tune.

See, this is the part where I disagree - artistic vision is something you either have or don't, it doesn't come with time and/or experience.

It just seems to me like a lot of people don't even seem to care about the end result. They only obsess about the process itself. To me it's always been the other way around - I want to get the production over with as soon as possible so I can take a look at the end result, the bigger picture.

Of course there's no right or wrong here, some people are composers and some producers. That's the way it's always been and will be.

but what a greyarea... i mean no offense but you should be able to write all your midi notes in just a few hours time, from there it's all about your ability to make those sounds move, shape, grow over time.

artistic expression vs being a producer who's worried about the technical side of things seems to want the same end result? because what you're ultimatly comparing is your ability to be creative in an in enviornment where your sound shaping skills are related to your production experience.

Re: Re: Re: Your artistic vision

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery See, this is the part where I disagree - artistic vision is something you either have or don't...

I agree with this. But that wasn't my point and I should elaborate. I was referring to that initial learning experience. For example, my artistic vision changed when I got a hardware synth. It also changed when I went from Reason to Live. I'll say: you either have the means/potential for an artistic vision, or you don't.

quote:

Also posted by Mr.Mystery ...it doesn't come with time and/or experience.

If a person has never saw down at a keyboard and a DAW, or any instrument for that matter, then they have not yet fully developed their artistic vision. It is shaped by what is already known.

quote:

Mr.Mystery's OP I'm just wondering because I keep seeing these threads... It seems like people obsess too much over production quality and the artistic vision is completely forgotten.

I think you answered your own question though. You don't see inquiries about artistic vision because...

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery artistic vision is something you either have or don't.

Therefore the next subject to ask in the production promotion forum is, "How's my production quality?"

I think artistic vision can be taught in a way, but when you express it, some of it comes out unconciously.

I don't think anyone is genetically born with artistic vision or creativity, you get your creativity from your influences and through experimenting.

Artistic vision is much more important than production quality. Good arrangement > a good mix and master if you chose to do it. If everything sounds good but the arrangement is shit it's not going to sound good.

edit:

in the end though you're going to need both. How exactly are you going to express what you want if your bass and kick don't mesh well? What if you suck at programming your synths?

such a good topic. i have been thinking the same.

i think its because there are a growing number of kids downloading a copy of cubase and being shown the basics by a friend. they have been deejaying for a few months and realise that everyone is making music and feel left out. the problem is, most are not musically minded. its like they just get this urge to make a trance track but dont have enough background knowledge on what makes a good tune. some even get the production bug bad, and work and work on something that they dont even feel that deeply about, but get the production sounding near professional. i am noticing some amazing mixing qualities on very new producer's tracks, but the tunes usually lack any artistic emotion.

so many new ta members with the right mindset, just without the ideas and creativity(due to a lack of experience in their chosen genre). personally i enjoy every track i make- i make them for me mainly. and i only take on board technical issues like mixing level problems when i get negative crit. the rest of the track is my own artistic style which wont be mine if i go against what i was going for originally.

the best (imo) advise for people unsure where to go with tracks is to listen to more music or look for other sources of inspiration so they have a better understanding on what they are trying to acheive.

It's really hard to be truly original though. If you put jazz influences in trance tracks, they might colide. Maybe you want to make an uplifiting trance track with indian influences so you want to put a sarangi in your track. It sounds awkward and incoherant.

in other words, you have to be a genius to even make original music.

edit:

I'm pretty sure some of you have tried to do some crazy things in your tracks, to only find out that they don't work. We live in an age where we can hear music at a press of a button. We live in an age where information on making music is available instantly.

Music isn't confined to a few people like it was back in the day. Today you can go on the net, or go buy a book to learn how to play an instrument or learn a sequencer.

It's hard to find original music because of that. What's done is being done.

quote:

Originally posted by richg101 the best (imo) advise for people unsure where to go with tracks is to listen to more music or look for other sources of inspiration so they have a better understanding on what they are trying to acheive.

Which is why I'm saving up for some DJ stuff. Thought it'd be a nice way to pay attention to the genres and maintain some artistic freedom.

For me being artistic is to know how to use your production techniques to deliver the artistic ideas in your head.

Excellent Producer without artistic vision = Studio Engineer.
Excellent Artist with no good techniques = producer who needs an Engineer.

then both are important !

Haha I think I'm notorious for those 2 min clip & runs... but like Numbers said, it's a great way to get opinions if you're heading in the right direction or not.

Re: Your artistic vision

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Just some things I've been thinking about for quite a while now. How strong of a vision do you have about the tracks you're working on? How much feedback are you willing to take into consideration from other people? I'm just wondering because I keep seeing these threads where people post 2 minute clips into the promotion forum and then ask people what they should be doing next... and I just don't get it. It seems like people obsess too much over production quality and the artistic vision is completely forgotten. In my opinion the vision should be the strongest part of a producer/composer, I'd much rather have an amazing track with adequate production than the other way around. Ah well, maybe I'm just rambling... any thoughts?

If you forget that it's all about the music, then you've lost your way. Production quality is important, everyone should learn the basics of EQing and so forth, but beyond that you shouldn't obsess over it. I think it's good for beginners to get feedback from someone, even if from the promotion forum. Once your tracks progress beyond the newb stage, you shouldn't really care what anyone thinks of your particular artistic vision. If what you are doing sounds good to you, and moves you, you've done well.

I put composition and artistic vision first, production second. It's possible the production quality suffers a tad here and there, because I don't feel like getting a sound engineering degree. :P I'm hoping my music is interesting enough, and moving enough, that it overrides any less than perfect production.

I think it's a good idea for artistic people to find a partner who is skilled at sound engineering, or even hire someone to mix and master their tracks. That way the artist can concentrate soley on the music and artistic vision. That would be my ideal situation, maybe one day I'll work up to that.

quote:

Originally posted by Internet TufGai in the end though you're going to need both. How exactly are you going to express what you want if your bass and kick don't mesh well? What if you suck at programming your synths?

You could just hire a producer like... some people

Re: Your artistic vision

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Just some things I've been thinking about for quite a while now. How strong of a vision do you have about the tracks you're working on? How much feedback are you willing to take into consideration from other people? I'm just wondering because I keep seeing these threads where people post 2 minute clips into the promotion forum and then ask people what they should be doing next... and I just don't get it. It seems like people obsess too much over production quality and the artistic vision is completely forgotten. In my opinion the vision should be the strongest part of a producer/composer, I'd much rather have an amazing track with adequate production than the other way around. Ah well, maybe I'm just rambling... any thoughts?

So would I and that's one of the reasons why so many productions have become bland and stereotypical. People are way too focused on production quality rather than the actual composition.

That's the one thing I loved about the tracks from 7-8 years ago. Their production quality can be pretty poor, there is a distinct lack of atmosphere and fills yet somehow, they are just magical. The synths are unpolished, the EQ isn't complete, the mastering may be bad but...the music! The melody! It's hypnotic. It drives the track. You forget about the quality and get stuck on the lead.

As for feedback from others, I take more technical feedback into consideration rather than the compositional. I think the artist should stick to their vision mostly and not make major changes.

I fuck around and don't listen to anyones oppinion or advice, unless they're telling me it's awesome.

I have a sign in my studio which says "Beautiful Music First. THEN Incredible Production" to remind myself what the main purpose is.

But both aspects are absolutely vital. Trance to me is about beautiful melodies, absolutely, but it's also about amazing sound design and cutting edge production quality. It's integral to the whole feel of the style. Even the old tracks which may sound dated now, they were at the forefront of trance production back in the day. If the producers made those tracks again today, the production quality would be raised. There were many great tracks 5, 10 years ago, there are many great tracks coming out today.

Sure, there are a bunch of soul-less tracks around, old and new. And more so on websites like this where people are still developing their musical/ artistic vision. It takes many artists a long time to hone their skills to the point where they can realise their vision, or for that vision to become clear. It's incorrect to think "you're either born with it or you aren't". Anyone could create the greatest music on Earth, given enough love and dedication. Anyone.

In terms of listening to feedback - it totally depends on the person it's coming from. Obviously, they need to have a degree of familiarity with the style. And, they need to be coming from a place of love for the music. I see a lot of feedback which is just plain destructive. That means the person providing it has no love for the music. Feedback is really helpful if the critiquer suggests what they would do, production-wise. If it's just "the bassline sounds bad", well, there's not much to learn from that, apart from "find other people to provide feedback to me"!

quote:

Originally posted by richg101 such a good topic. i have been thinking the same. i think its because there are a growing number of kids downloading a copy of cubase and being shown the basics by a friend. they have been deejaying for a few months and realise that everyone is making music and feel left out. the problem is, most are not musically minded. its like they just get this urge to make a trance track but dont have enough background knowledge on what makes a good tune. some even get the production bug bad, and work and work on something that they dont even feel that deeply about, but get the production sounding near professional. i am noticing some amazing mixing qualities on very new producer's tracks, but the tunes usually lack any artistic emotion. so many new ta members with the right mindset, just without the ideas and creativity(due to a lack of experience in their chosen genre). personally i enjoy every track i make- i make them for me mainly. and i only take on board technical issues like mixing level problems when i get negative crit. the rest of the track is my own artistic style which wont be mine if i go against what i was going for originally. the best (imo) advise for people unsure where to go with tracks is to listen to more music or look for other sources of inspiration so they have a better understanding on what they are trying to acheive.

Well said.

I always strive for the artistic side to come out but lately its been more about quality for me and as a result the time its taking me to make a track has increased somewhat. As each track goes by, I ask myself can I improve and make this one better than the last? If I can, I feel I'm progressing. I've always made the tracks for me but lately after 4 years now of producing, there is that urge that you want your efforts to be heard by others so the focus on quality starts taking precidence. For me its like I want to know, do I have what it takes? Kind of like a personal assurance that I can do this because in the beginning, I always was scared of music production and thought I couldn't be smart enough to figure it out.

I also totally agree with the idea that so many DJs just get into music production because they are sick of spinning amongst 1000 other bedroom DJs and they want to stand out somehow. However many have 0 musical background and end up getting frustrated or end up wasting their time in vain. Thankfully in my case, my parents forced me to play an instrument at the age of 8 and I believe that has really helped me along. Music is my passion and I don't see myself ever stopping, even if that means that nobody but myself and my circle of friends hears what I make. That may be hard for me to swallow if that is all that ever happens, but getting it out of me is what makes it worth it.

Actually i have never changed something in a track based on comments i have gotten when posting on the forum.

I am just aware of the comments and critics of my previous track and try to get better at those points on the next track.

I have changed tracks based on opinions fed to me. However, it is not often, and the results of my "tweaking" off of feedback have only been posted a handful of times. However, I once posted a "half-baked" track, got some feedback off of it, and incorperated it in the final result -- that I later tweaked some more. However, by and large I take feedback from the track and take it to heart as constructive critique for my next track. There is no doubt that it has helped me.

As far as the "artistic vision" argument goes, I have two ways of going about it. I, too, can suffer from "producer's block" where I am suddenly more enthralled with production than with arrangement and musical quality. However, I attempt to make lemonade out of such a lemon by looking at what I created and saying: "This bassline would go really well with a 'x' synth patch, one that I have yet to create... I wonder what kind of melody I could conjure up with such a feeling". Sometimes, dinking around with a lead has inspired whole tracks. It's all a matter of working backwards or not.

The other extreme is "musician's block", where I toy around on my piano and come up with something that I cannot seem to recreate on my sequencer in what my mind envisions. Sometimes it is not even communicated from the piano, but auto-inspiration. That's a tough one when it's all in the noodle, and you have this cork that just won't pop.

It's almost as if being a producer takes more of the left side of the brain, while the musician part is the right side. It's makes perfect sense in that one is macro, the other micro... it follows the same psychology. When it comes to our line of hobby, the two are really inseperable unless you have some incredible form of organization and stack of pre-adjusted production tools.

It also depends on the music itself. If it's techno, where it's more about the detail placed in the groove, timbres, and automations, then being a producer-minded individual is what it is all about. Don't get me wrong, a techno-ist cannot go very far forgetting the artistic side, but it's stressed after the production quality.

Right now... I am stuck on a track that is production rooted, but has beeb riddled with artistic ideas that are being blockaded by the production scale. I cannot insert and idea when I just can't be satisfied with the timbres, and feel of the mix. It doesn't make me unhappy to work with the track itself... just a little time-pinched.

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