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Rememberance day / Veteran's day

This may be taken as a bit of a rant, but I was pissed off enough that I felt the need to make a point out of it. It is no secret that I hold little to no respect for activists (not all activists just the stupid ones who think that freedom of speech = permission to break the law), this being said I tolerate them to an extent. On Sunday (remembrance day in Canada, Veterans Day in the US) I attended the national rememberance day ceremony in Ottawa. As with any major event in Ottawa, this one dredged up the usual collection of loons and retards to come protest something. In particular they pasted flyers and posters all over the downtown core with such lovely and respectful slogans as “remember baby killers”, “remember agent orange”, “remember war hero is an oxymoron” etc etc. Now these posters just pissed the hell out of me. I am not a fan of conflict, but I have a great deal of respect for those who not only risked their lives in the service of their country, but those who gave the ultimate sacrifice while serving their country. Nov 11th is the one day every year that the men and women who have served, have died in service and continue to serve get a sign of respect and gratitude that they deserve and the fact that these arse’s tried to take the piss on them is abhorrent.

Furthermore, at the conclusion of the ceremonies, the surviving Vet’s from WWII lined up in formation as they received salutes from active Canadian forces personal, dignitaries and police. Near the end of the procession an 80 year old, highly decorated WWII vet suffered cardiac arrest and dropped right in front of where we were standing. Within seconds there were police and several paramedics surrounding him and performing CPR and right behind me was some little prick dressed in camo and a bandana around his face holding a sign up high that said something along the lines of “war hero = oxymoron, stop celebrating history of violence” blah blah blah. I wanted to grab the sign and beat the kid senseless with it. Here is a guy who gave up the best years of his life to fight for his country, and now he is lying on the road dying right in front of us, and this little punk doesn’t even have the respect or common decency to put down his fucking sign.

I am not a big fan of the mission in Afghanistan, but I will tell you this, a lot of brave men and women enlist to serve their country in whatever capacity the elected officials of the time see fit. They don’t choose to sign up to go to Afghanistan for the most part. They choose to serve their country. If you don’t support the fight, that’s fine, but don’t take it out on the troops. If you don’t want to stand behind our troops, I suggest you stand in front of them.


/rant

I agree with you. I have a lot of respect for our armed forces and veterans.

Pretty much on par with that extremist church whose members protest at war funerals...

Re: Rememberance day / Veteran's day

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Originally posted by colonelcrisp I am not a fan of conflict, but I have a great deal of respect for those who not only risked their lives in the service of their country, but those who gave the ultimate sacrifice while serving their country.

Fuck them. I don't give two shit about dellusional retards or their support base. If they're not a family member or friend of yours, it's not like you really give a fuck to begin with. Get over this childish obsession for a sense of belonging, especially when it's some imaginary identity like nationality. This concept of serving "a country" or "your country" is pretty fucking retarded to begin with. It doesn't really mean anything to begin with. Define country, then perhaps the phrase might entail some sort of comprehensible meaning, chances are, it'll still be quite juvenile and retarded. I have no sympathy (well, it's not a hard and fast rule) for people idiotic and degenerate enough to be state sponsored murderers. And if you died "serving your country," well you fucking deserve it you muderous peice of shit. If you're going to kill somebody, you'd better have a pretty good fucking reason to do it, and "serving you country" certainly isn't one of them. One less moronic degenerate peice of shit in the world isn't going to break my heart. Being in the military doesn't magically imply somehow that your intention is to serve the interests of your "fellow country men." You're a tool of the bureaucracy of state and corporations, nothing more, nothing less; so let's not be a little fucking honest for a change shall we?

Re: Re: Rememberance day / Veteran's day

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Fuck them. I don't give two shit about dellusional retards or their support base. If they're not a family member or friend of yours, it's not like you really give a fuck to begin with. Get over this childish obsession for a sense of belonging, especially when it's some imaginary identity like nationality. This concept of serving "a country" or "your country" is pretty fucking retarded to begin with. It doesn't really mean anything to begin with. Define country, then perhaps the phrase might entail some sort of comprehensible meaning, chances are, it'll still be quite juvenile and retarded. I have no sympathy (well, it's not a hard and fast rule) for people idiotic and degenerate enough to be state sponsored murderers. And if you died "serving your country," well you fucking deserve it you muderous peice of shit. If you're going to kill somebody, you'd better have a pretty good fucking reason to do it, and "serving you country" certainly isn't one of them. One less moronic degenerate peice of shit in the world isn't going to break my heart.

So, the Allies in the world war II were just murderous barbarians right?

A country is a result of human group evolution from the hunter-gather communal living through kingdoms, empires, serfdoms, city-states, and now today, nation-states. Your clan is now your country. You fight for your clan when it is threatened. You fight for your country when it is threatened.

I agree those canadian protesters are pretty idiotic, but I find your notion that all soldiers who've ever fought or died in battle are state-sponsored murderers on par with their idiocy.. So what if you're drafted and go off to war. Are you still a murderous barbarian?

Re: Re: Rememberance day / Veteran's day

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z

All very good in theory....

Where exactly did you learn to write/read/add and so on where you home schooled? Or were you provided education by your country?

I understand the concept your explaining "that nationality is in fact only perceived" but by living in a country and deriving benefits from it you should be grateful to the ones who made it possible for you to receive them.

And without protection you would get them. Go and ask one of the millions of people who would want to be in your shoes if they think nationality/citizenship is only perceived.

Yes it is only a club, but you should appreciate those who give the most, and there isn't much more than your life than you can give.

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Originally posted by Krypton So, the Allies in the world war II were just murderous barbarians right? A country is a result of human group evolution from the hunter-gather communal living through kingdoms, empires, serfdoms, city-states, and now today, nation-states. Your clan is now your country. You fight for your clan when it is threatened. You fight for your country when it is threatened. I agree those canadian protesters are pretty idiotic, but I find your notion that all soldiers who've ever fought or died in battle are state-sponsored murderers on par with their idiocy.. So what if you're drafted and go off to war. Are you still a murderous barbarian?

If you actually have a LEGITIMATE cause, that's a different story altogether. If you're drafted, you didn't choose to participate in such a fiasco. So those are very different circumstances. If economic conditions literally forced you in to the military, that's a little different too. It tells you how fucked up the society and system you live in is. Like I said, it's not a hard and fast rule. I have no problem with people fighting for a justifiable cause, but how many wars have any justification whatsoever? That's the whole premise of my statement, ignorance is no excuse. You signed on to be a soldier, don't bitch about dying in a war. You fucking signed on for that possibility. If you genuinly thought you were serving some higher purpose, then you have somewhat of an excuse. But being to lazy to educate yourself, being dishonest and disingenous, having a desire to belong and identify with a larger group, and other such ludicrous reasons are nothing more than excuses for being a degenrate irresponsible fuck, period.

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Originally posted by Dervish All very good in theory.... Where exactly did you learn to write/read/add and so on where you home schooled? Or were you provided education by your country? I understand the concept your explaining "that nationality is in fact only perceived" but by living in a country and deriving benefits from it you should be grateful to the ones who made it possible for you to receive them. And without protection you would get them. Go and ask one of the millions of people who would want to be in your shoes if they think nationality/citizenship is only perceived. Yes it is only a club, but you should appreciate those who give the most, and there isn't much more than your life than you can give.

The state only gives the masses enough to pacify and keep them undre control, hardly something to be thankful about. If the state doesn't serve true interests of the people, I see no reason to be thankful. And I can't think of a single state that does. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate being in a much better position than most people in the world, at the same time, it shouldn't make us apathetic and selfcentered eigther. Catch my drift?

EDIT: Sorry for coming off so strong Dervish, but it really pisses me off when people go on and on about "supporting the troops" or actally giving a shit about them. If you care so much, why not keep them safe at home rather than sending them to die for stupid/greedy/degenrate politicians/CEOs/chikenhawks/corporate schills/war time profiteers to begin with?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Rememberance day / Veteran's day

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I have no problem with people fighting for a justifiable cause, but how many wars have any justification whatsoever?

You have to disassociate the men and women that serve and die in war from the political side of things. Given that rememberance day represents many many wars that were fought with conscription, I don�t see why paying respect for average citizens that were (rightly or wrongly) sent to their death should be a problem. And rememberance day certainly isn't the forum for raising valid criticisms against war. Do you celebrate independence day?

I don�t see how one particular day (which actually marks the END of a war) to remember the fallen should be used by vagrant hippies with an axe to grind. Vagrant hippies who haven�t sacrificed anything more than their bars of soap to be there. I really wonder what these morons of history think canada would be like today if they were speaking german or japanese.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rememberance day / Veteran's day

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN You have to disassociate the men and women that serve and die in war from the political side of things.

Only if you had a choice to not participate, or lacked the mental faculties to comprehend your decision. That clearly isn't the case for most people. So again, fuck them. Not participating or supporting this shit is the bare minimum any self respecting individual can do, it takes a greater conscience and sense of ethics to have the balls to be opposed to it, atleast in spirit, and more so to actually do something about it, but the latter takes collective will and integrity.

Pardon me if I'm tired of all this disingenous bullshit most people so willingly imbibe to feel better about themselves or their "clan" to compensate for the guilt stemming from their actions or inactions they subcontiously know very well. It takes a conciouse decision to push that back and keep it in your subconscious and a whole lot of bullshit.

The whole "support the troops" crap is a good portion of it, not to mention the olderst wartime PR strategy to make people docile and complacent, to minize dissent and the capacity for critical thought.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Given that rememberance day represents many many wars that were fought with conscription, I don�t see why paying respect for average citizens that were (rightly or wrongly) sent to their death should be a problem. And rememberance day certainly isn't the forum for raising valid criticisms against war. Do you celebrate independence day?

I enjoy the fireworks, that's about it. I don't attach any false meaning to the day. People are kind of responsible for the consequences of their actions or inactions, just because someone happens to be stupid enought to be a sacrificial lamb in the process, or praise one, isn't terribly convicing way to earn my respec, sorry.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I don�t see how one particular day (which actually marks the END of a war) to remember the fallen should be used by vagrant hippies with an axe to grind. Vagrant hippies who haven�t sacrificed anything more than their bars of soap to be there. I really wonder what these morons of history think canada would be like today if they were speaking german or japanese.

You forgot to mention razor blades . The vagrant hippies have a lot more spine than the silent masses or the chickenhawks who put on the fascade of mourning for the "fallen." And no, I'm not a fucking hippie.

[EDIT] Please explain how you can absolve people on a collective and individual level of responsibility for their own actions/choices and inactions?

I don't think most soldiers make decisions to join up based on politics.

There are various reasons to join up, but if a soldier is ordered on a mission, they follow their orders. If it's to attack, people will get killed. That's war. I kind of don't get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that veteran's day means nothing because people who die in battle should have expected battle to not be fun?

Or people like Cindy Sheehan should shut up about their loved ones dying in battle because they should have expected that being in a combat zone would be dangerous and shit happens? so let's not honor stupid people for putting themselves in a combat zone?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rememberance day / Veteran's day

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN You have to disassociate the men and women that serve and die in war from the political side of things. Given that rememberance day represents many many wars that were fought with conscription, I don�t see why paying respect for average citizens that were (rightly or wrongly) sent to their death should be a problem. And rememberance day certainly isn't the forum for raising valid criticisms against war. Do you celebrate independence day? I don�t see how one particular day (which actually marks the END of a war) to remember the fallen should be used by vagrant hippies with an axe to grind. Vagrant hippies who haven�t sacrificed anything more than their bars of soap to be there. I really wonder what these morons of history think canada would be like today if they were speaking german or japanese.

Very valid points indeed. I have great respect to all veterans of war. it is morally incorrect to abuse these veterans like those hippies did. Hippies are sometimes dumb, and they ruin the cause of the whole movement in examples like these (no offense to the good hippies on this board) ... In a way this reminds of other similar acts of disrespect for veterans in other countries. No matter how bad the Vietnam War was, for example, the veterans should still be treated with respect and given privileges. Arguments against the war and killings of innocent civilians is a different story, to be blamed on the people who started the wars and on the officials who ordered the crimes - not on veterans.

And it should be done separately, on an anniversary date of START OF THE WAR, not in the case of Remembrance Day the day the war ended. Clearly the idiots who didnt clue in on this (teh hippies) did it intentionally to take it out on the veterans. November 11 is remembered for the END of the war, as pkc pointed out, thats finally it was over and peace came - celebration of peace. It wasnt us who started that war anyway. And if we didnt interfere, Canadians would probably be speaking Japanese or German, as pkc pointed out. Also, compared to other wars of the century, very few civilians and women/children died in WW1. There's too much disrespect, lack of knowledge and understanding out there of history. I blame it on the schools and the system. The new generation of young people, for much part, are very dumb. I just came out of high school, I saw it myself.

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Originally posted by Krypton I don't think most soldiers make decisions to join up based on politics.

In the information age, people have no excuse for being ignorant or lazy. If you join the army becuase you think you're serving "your country," I'm sorry, you're stupid. Anyone who bothers putting a little thought in to what the term "country" means and then applying that to the phrase "serving your country" can immediately see what a load of horseshit that concept is. The context of my rant is specifically cruitial to the modern age and the recent political climate. I'm not a cold bastard you know. I'm just sick of this "support the troops" bullshit. Some of you actually are disturbed by how people are being sacrificed for all this bullshit, most people aren't. Actions and/or inactions reflect true intentions and feeling, I don't see to many fucking people forming any real opposition, just a bunch of fake spineless sobbing and an enourmous display of complacency, fear, ignorance, and obedience to power. I'm digressing, but the point is, put bluntly "shut the fuck up about 'the troops' already you docile fucking sheep and chickenhaks." And no, I'm not even slightly apologetic about that statement. If any of these assholes cared in the slightest about the troops, the least they would do is be firm in their oppostion to war policy. Ofcourse, it's still possible to have some level of empathy, but all it says is that you're a weak pathetic spineless peice of shit. And if anyone truly does care about 'the troops,' stop the goverment from sending them off to their death in the first place!

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Originally posted by Krypton There are various reasons to join up, but if a soldier is ordered on a mission, they follow their orders.

Yup, that's what the military is for. Brainwashing you to follow orders and take another human life with a minimal sense of remorse while simultaneously having a delusional sense of serving some greater good.

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Originally posted by Krypton If it's to attack, people will get killed. That's war. I kind of don't get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that veteran's day means nothing because people who die in battle should have expected battle to not be fun?

No, I'm not saying it doesn't mean anything whatsoever, it just doesn't to most of these clowns who've never experienced that loss nor do they have the slightest fucking clue how it affects a loved one. But if the so called "loved ones" are in denial about why their son/brother/sister/mother/friend died, fuck their dishonest ass.

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Originally posted by Krypton Or people like Cindy Sheehan should shut up about their loved ones dying in battle because they should have expected that being in a combat zone would be dangerous and shit happens? so let's not honor stupid people for putting themselves in a combat zone?

I have termendous respect for people like Cindy Sheehan, and I don't give a shit what all these other balless selfcontiouse clows say about her or people like her.

Dude, don't take this the wrong way. You're cool in my books. None of that is personaly directed at you and nor do I think it applies to you. I'm just sick to death of all this blatantly dishonest bullshit and "feel good" crap way too many people are knee deep in. They don't give a fuck about anyone or anything but themsleves and their immediate surronding, their materialistic shallow lives, and feeling better about their pathetic little selves. Hence all this disingenuos illogical utter bullshit about "remembering" or "supporting" the troops, and the false fucking causes they "sacrifice their lives for." At some level there is some truth in their own admissions though, you know, the whole "well, they're doing it so I don't have too." Nothing could be more cowardly and pathetic than that. It's essentially saying "I don't have the balls to stand up for you or myself against the state or our corporate masters, so thanks for dying instead of me!" Fucking pussies. All these shallow fucks have to loose is their cute little suburban lives, toys, and "stuff." The least they can is shut the fuck up and stop being so fucking dishonest.

Nevermind, I'm wasting my breath, the idea of "loyalty to ones counntry" is too deeply imbeded and drilled in to most peoples' head all over the world. It doesn't mean a fucking thing, it's too bad most people are too fucking weak and/or dumb to see through such ludicrous concepts.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rememberance day / Veteran's day

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Very valid points indeed.

I'm sorry, but the whole premise underlying it is totally flawed and on a deeper look explicity assumes a complete absense of responsibility, integrity, and courage. I fail to see what's respectable or "honorable" about that.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I have great respect to all veterans of war. it is morally incorrect to abuse these veterans like those hippies did. Hippies are sometimes dumb, and they ruin the cause of the whole movement in examples like these (no offense to the good hippies on this board) ... In a way this reminds of other similar acts of disrespect for veterans in other countries. No matter how bad the Vietnam War was, for example, the veterans should still be treated with respect and given privileges. Arguments against the war and killings of innocent civilians is a different story, to be blamed on the people who started the wars and on the officials who ordered the crimes - not on veterans.

Bullshit, people share the burden of responsibility too.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium And it should be done separately, on an anniversary date of START OF THE WAR, not in the case of Remembrance Day the day the war ended. Clearly the idiots who didnt clue in on this (teh hippies) did it intentionally to take it out on the veterans. November 11 is remembered for the END of the war, as pkc pointed out, thats finally it was over and peace came - celebration of peace. It wasnt us who started that war anyway. And if we didnt interfere, Canadians would probably be speaking Japanese or German, as pkc pointed out. Also, compared to other wars of the century, very few civilians and women/children died in WW1. There's too much disrespect, lack of knowledge and understanding out there of history. I blame it on the schools and the system. The new generation of young people, for much part, are very dumb. I just came out of high school, I saw it myself.

So now we're shifting all blame on to the school system huh? Don't forget the major financers of Hitler and the nazi party brining them to power, the Zionist filth known as the Warburgs. Isn't it a strange coincidence that Zionism had virtually no support and after the slaughtering and persectuion of the Jews (amongst MANY others), there was a sudden change in heart? What did WW2 give US? The UN and Israel, and they're both just fucking fantastic as we all know.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z In the information age, people have no excuse for being ignorant or lazy. If you join the army becuase you think you're serving "your country," I'm sorry, you're stupid. Anyone who bothers putting a little thought in to what the term "country" means and then applying that to the phrase "serving your country" can immediately see what a load of horseshit that concept is. The context of my rant is specifically cruitial to the modern age and the recent political climate. I'm not a cold bastard you know. I'm just sick of this "support the troops" bullshit. Some of you actually are disturbed by how people are being sacrificed for all this bullshit, most people aren't. Actions and/or inactions reflect true intentions and feeling, I don't see to many fucking people forming any real opposition, just a bunch of fake spineless sobbing and an enourmous display of complacency, fear, ignorance, and obedience to power. I'm digressing, but the point is, put bluntly "shut the fuck up about 'the troops' already you docile fucking sheep and chickenhaks." And no, I'm not even slightly apologetic about that statement. If any of these assholes cared in the slightest about the troops, the least they would do is be firm in their oppostion to war policy. Ofcourse, it's still possible to have some level of empathy, but all it says is that you're a weak pathetic spineless peice of shit. And if anyone truly does care about 'the troops,' stop the goverment from sending them off to their death in the first place! Yup, that's what the military is for. Brainwashing you to follow orders and take another human life with a minimal sense of remorse while simultaneously having a delusional sense of serving some greater good. No, I'm not saying it doesn't mean anything whatsoever, it just doesn't to most of these clowns who've never experienced that loss nor do they have the slightest fucking clue how it affects a loved one. But if the so called "loved ones" are in denial about why their son/brother/sister/mother/friend died, fuck their dishonest ass. I have termendous respect for people like Cindy Sheehan, and I don't give a shit what all these other balless selfcontiouse clows say about her or people like her. Dude, don't take this the wrong way. You're cool in my books. None of that is personaly directed at you and nor do I think it applies to you. I'm just sick to death of all this blatantly dishonest bullshit and "feel good" crap way too many people are knee deep in. They don't give a fuck about anyone or anything but themsleves and their immediate surronding, their materialistic shallow lives, and feeling better about their pathetic little selves. Hence all this disingenuos illogical utter bullshit about "remembering" or "supporting" the troops, and the false fucking causes they "sacrifice their lives for." At some level there is some truth in their own admissions though, you know, the whole "well, they're doing it so I don't have too." Nothing could be more cowardly and pathetic than that. It's essentially saying "I don't have the balls to stand up for you or myself against the state or our corporate masters, so thanks for dying instead of me!" Fucking pussies. All these shallow fucks have to loose is their cute little suburban lives, toys, and "stuff." The least they can is shut the fuck up and stop being so fucking dishonest.

Your point has been made. I just don't see it that way.

Maybe it's because both sides of my family have had service members since the Korean War til the present. Dad is a colonel in the Army, so I have a little admiration of the military. I'm one to believe in country, and clan. In this world, sometimes the only thing you've got is family, and I think family goes all the way up to your nation. Language, cultural identity, leadership. It's more than a set of laws setting a boundary and behavior. I see it as a sophisticated tribe. Other nations too. I guess you can call me a nationalist, but yea, I believe in country, and when, as you said, there is a justifiable cause, "fighting for country" is a slogan to rally the populace for war.

Sorry, but serving your country is most definitely NOT stupid.

And for your information there shaolin_Z, Canadians were NEVER conscripted (minus one time in 1917), they all volunteered.
And this includes WWII.

You talk about being lazy and ignorant, trying doing some research next time before talking a country's military's history you no nothing about....

Don't blame the individual; that's just lame.
One can still support the troops and not necessarily enjoy the politics involved, that's the nature of the military.
Everyone signs up KNOWING they'll be called to do something shaolin_Z; it's not a free ride.
You'd have to be a total idiot to think otherwise.

/rant

Myself?

I visited my WWII veteran friend, Ches, who did the tour in Europe all the way to Germany. He was an engineer (welder) who worked on all the trucks/jeeps/etc.

I find it appalling that kids these days have no sense of what Remembrance Day is or why it is celebrated.

The other day, a black high-school girl, who was with her friend on the rush hour subway, noticed I was wearing a poppy. In her vein attempt to embarrass me, she asks from across the car, if I knew why I was wearing it.
I turned, smiled, and answered, "Yes. Do you?"
She instantly blushes and answers meekly, "Isn't it for some people who died in the past or something like that?"
I say, "Close enough", although obviously now quite aware her ignorance was now apparent to the whole car...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r The other day, a black high-school girl, who was with her friend on the rush hour subway, noticed I was wearing a poppy. In her vein attempt to embarrass me, she asks from across the car, if I knew why I was wearing it.

You were wearing opium? What's a poppy?

I remember an American History course I once took where we covered World War II. Our teacher related a story to us about her Grandfather who had died in the war. He had been a sort of field survey scout who plotted coordinates or whatnot all by himself and tracked enemy movements - told people where to bomb, etc. Pretty scary job. One day, he had been camped out in an abandoned farmhouse when several German soldiers entered and decided to camp out in the floor below him, ignorant to his presence. When he was to make his next radio report to command, he told them to bomb his coordinates, knowing that he, himself, would die, but he would take this troupe of enemies with him. I guess some would call this a "sacrifice", a "heroic deed", or perhaps even "God's work" if they are so short of alternate terms of thought and speech.

I can't help but feel a slight disgust towards it, though. Is this bravery? Does it really take courage to kill yourself and kill others with you? It takes a whole lot of something. Maybe spite. Maybe indoctrinated hatred and a self-righteous sense of duty. I'm not quite convinced it's bravery. In fact, it may just be the opposite. The man obviously had children. What does it take to leave your kids fatherless but for the sole purpose of killing some strangers who wear a different uniform than yourself?

Am I saying that soldiers deserve to be picketed and spit upon and have used tampons thrrown at them by protesting by-standers? No. Do some of them deserve it? Quite possibly. But I am quite uneasy with collectively judging enlisted men and women who are just there for the money, the experience, the tradeskills. Don't make it out as more than it is. If you have been in the US military within the last 20 years, you are only supporting warmongering profiteers who make huge money off of providing and supporting arms used against what are mostly 3rd world countries and peoples. But the spite and the hatred should be directed more at those politicians who issue death warrants; those uncaring capitalists and corrupt figureheads who don't bat an eye at bombing hospitals and sending men and women to their doom all in the name of "Jesus", "Freedom", "Democracy" or the almighty "Self Defense and the security of Peace".

Do veterans deserve rememberance? Very much so. Does anything in this world deserve a national holiday where many things shut down, there are parades in the streets, rioting hippies and sad old men in Uniforms, marching around as though the period from which they are trying to remember was a happy one? No. I disagree with that. If people really want to "honour" the dead, they would read up on what happened and observe what this has on our current state of being. Because I'm not even the slightest bit convinced that those who have died in past conflicts would want to see the cycle of death and war that this world seems unable to extricate itself from. I mean, really, their death accomplished nothing. If anything, the state of the world has gotten far worse. Is that what they would want? That doesn't sound like honouring the memory of anyone to me.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sorry, but serving your country is most definitely NOT stupid.

Define country. And I'll show you just how stupid and shallow an idea it is.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r And for your information there shaolin_Z, Canadians were NEVER conscripted (minus one time in 1917), they all volunteered. And this includes WWII.

Hmmm... and I claimed they were? Nope, don't remember doing that.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r You talk about being lazy and ignorant, trying doing some research next time before talking a country's military's history you no nothing about....

Maybe you should try paying more attention to what I wrote. I was refering to "a country," and abstract concept and universally applying it, not a "specific country" thank you very much.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Don't blame the individual; that's just lame. One can still support the troops and not necessarily enjoy the politics involved, that's the nature of the military.

No you can't. The word looses all meaning. You're not supporting their cause to begin with. Secondly, you're not sending them money, weapons, food/rations, mediacal supplies, comepsation for disablities/handicaps, or any REAL TANGIBLE SUPPORT helping them or the cause they're fighting for in any way, and certainly aren't going out on the battlefeild with them. How exactly are you supporting them? A theatrical display of mourning is not support.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Everyone signs up KNOWING they'll be called to do something shaolin_Z; it's not a free ride. You'd have to be a total idiot to think otherwise. /rant

That's exactly my point. They're responsible for contemplating what that "something" is before the decide to sign up... not an unreasonable expectation.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Myself? I visited my WWII veteran friend, Ches, who did the tour in Europe all the way to Germany. He was an engineer (welder) who worked on all the trucks/jeeps/etc. I find it appalling that kids these days have no sense of what Remembrance Day is or why it is celebrated. The other day, a black high-school girl, who was with her friend on the rush hour subway, noticed I was wearing a poppy. In her vein attempt to embarrass me, she asks from across the car, if I knew why I was wearing it. I turned, smiled, and answered, "Yes. Do you?" She instantly blushes and answers meekly, "Isn't it for some people who died in the past or something like that?" I say, "Close enough", although obviously now quite aware her ignorance was now apparent to the whole car...

Ok. And?

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I remember an American History course I once took where we covered World War II. Our teacher related a story to us about her Grandfather who had died in the war. He had been a sort of field survey scout who plotted coordinates or whatnot all by himself and tracked enemy movements - told people where to bomb, etc. Pretty scary job. One day, he had been camped out in an abandoned farmhouse when several German soldiers entered and decided to camp out in the floor below him, ignorant to his presence. When he was to make his next radio report to command, he told them to bomb his coordinates, knowing that he, himself, would die, but he would take this troupe of enemies with him. I guess some would call this a "sacrifice", a "heroic deed", or perhaps even "God's work" if they are so short of alternate terms of thought and speech. I can't help but feel a slight disgust towards it, though. Is this bravery? Does it really take courage to kill yourself and kill others with you? It takes a whole lot of something. Maybe spite. Maybe indoctrinated hatred and a self-righteous sense of duty. I'm not quite convinced it's bravery. In fact, it may just be the opposite. The man obviously had children. What does it take to leave your kids fatherless but for the sole purpose of killing some strangers who wear a different uniform than yourself? Am I saying that soldiers deserve to be picketed and spit upon and have used tampons thrrown at them by protesting by-standers? No. Do some of them deserve it? Quite possibly. But I am quite uneasy with collectively judging enlisted men and women who are just there for the money, the experience, the tradeskills. Don't make it out as more than it is. If you have been in the US military within the last 20 years, you are only supporting warmongering profiteers who make huge money off of providing and supporting arms used against what are mostly 3rd world countries and peoples. But the spite and the hatred should be directed more at those politicians who issue death warrants; those uncaring capitalists and corrupt figureheads who don't bat an eye at bombing hospitals and sending men and women to their doom all in the name of "Jesus", "Freedom", "Democracy" or the almighty "Self Defense and the security of Peace". Do veterans deserve rememberance? Very much so. Does anything in this world deserve a national holiday where many things shut down, there are parades in the streets, rioting hippies and sad old men in Uniforms, marching around as though the period from which they are trying to remember was a happy one? No. I disagree with that. If people really want to "honour" the dead, they would read up on what happened and observe what this has on our current state of being. Because I'm not even the slightest bit convinced that those who have died in past conflicts would want to see the cycle of death and war that this world seems unable to extricate itself from. I mean, really, their death accomplished nothing. If anything, the state of the world has gotten far worse. Is that what they would want? That doesn't sound like honouring the memory of anyone to me.

Excellent post.

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Originally posted by Krypton Your point has been made. I just don't see it that way. Maybe it's because both sides of my family have had service members since the Korean War til the present. Dad is a colonel in the Army, so I have a little admiration of the military. I'm one to believe in country, and clan. In this world, sometimes the only thing you've got is family, and I think family goes all the way up to your nation. Language, cultural identity, leadership. It's more than a set of laws setting a boundary and behavior. I see it as a sophisticated tribe. Other nations too. I guess you can call me a nationalist, but yea, I believe in country, and when, as you said, there is a justifiable cause, "fighting for country" is a slogan to rally the populace for war.

Good, you're honest, and I respect that. And we agree to disagree. I don't see the country as an extension of the familt though. If it is, it's a very dysfunctional one .

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Define country. And I'll show you just how stupid and shallow an idea it is.

See below

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Hmmm... and I claimed they were? Nope, don't remember doing that.

You do know that colonelcrisp is Canadian right?
Hence my comments...

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No you can't. The word looses all meaning. You're not supporting their cause to begin with.

Uh, yea, I am.
Canadians are in an entirely different boat than your fuckin' mess...

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Secondly, you're not sending them money, weapons, food/rations, mediacal supplies, comepsation for disablities/handicaps, or any REAL TANGIBLE SUPPORT helping them or the cause they're fighting for in any way, and certainly aren't going out on the battlefeild with them. How exactly are you supporting them? A theatrical display of mourning is not support.

Again, you're lost; it's called TAXES.
Who do you think is paying them??
Just because I'm not 'out there' or 'in the shit' with them doesn't mean I don't support them...

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That's exactly my point. They're responsible for contemplating what that "something" is before the decide to sign up... not an unreasonable expectation.

Unless you're fuckin' omnipotent you can't possibly expect someone to sign up based on the crisis du jour (there's no multiple choice option sorry!)
There's enough data out there for even for the most dim witted to understand what the potential possibilities are before they even put ink to paper...
If someone is going to balk when asked to actually do some work, then they obviously made the wrong choice and should go home and cry to momma...

quote:

Ok. And?

That story wasn't for you. So?

You're obviously lost on this whole subject so I suggest talking to a vet and show some respect where respect is due.
If you can't figure out why someone would lay their life on the line for people like yourself to have the freedom to complain about others 'faking respect' then this is obviously beyond your comprehension.
I feel sorry for you actually.

As for your 'country' dilemma, read some history or something.
Every 'country's' history is different, how they were formed, different and unique.
Their people, different.
My reason for loving Canada is a lot different then someone who may love their country of USA.
Would I defend her if needed? Absolutely.
Why? Because I believe it's worth defending both for myself and others that share in it.
I'm not of the mindset of the egotistical, it's all about me generation thats springing from the gutters these days. Consumerist, gang bangin', no respect hoodlums who wouldn't know a days work if it hit them on the head freeloaders - I would defend them.
Why?
I understand that there is a history of people to preserve and yet unborn families that deserve the freedom I currently enjoy.
A country is about it's people, not the borders.
If that's so perplexing, get off the internet and go on a trip in your own country.

Forget about the politics, the face in office is irrelevant.
Nobody ever serves in a time of war because their country wants them to, they serve because of what they want to defend.
(Conscription not withstanding of course)

Oh, the nobility.

shaolin_Z I think you are specifically focused on the current US situation? Which I think is different. "Supporting the troops" is really being pushed into supporting a folly of a war in the middle east.

I'd agree with your points based on that.

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