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Rejected from Berghain for speaking English

Hallo!

I am an American law student who spent the past weekend in Berlin sightseeing. After reading great reviews in many sources, including TA, Time Out, and the New York Times, I planned on spending Saturday night at Berghain/Panorama Bar.

I went with 2 other law students, and after waiting in live for approximately 45 minutes we were stopped at the door by the main bouncer--an older man with a tattoo across his face. He looked at us for a second and then said in German, "You speak English, find another place." We asked him if he was serious, and a second bouncer came over to us and said to us, this time in English, "My friend says you speak English, and so you'll have to find some other place tonight, good-bye."

Now, I'm 25 and was by no-means rude, drunk, loud or any other quality that could typically get you refused from entering a bar or club. I didn't put up an argument at the time, I just left, stunned and dejected with my friends, but I really wish I had told the bouncers that what they were using as grounds for refusing our entry (our English language) was simply illegal. If nothing more, I hope this tarnishes Berghain's current image as a internationally famous nightclub.

Berghain should be exposed for condoning illegal discriminatory door policies.

Did you have tickets to get in the Berghain? That is really crazy. You would think your $$ would spend the same as anyone elses.

Is it like that throughout most of Germany or is this an isolated incident? We had plans on hitting up the same club in Berlin in January.... Any feedback would be appreciated.

I never made it to a Berghain party (yet), but a lot of other GTA`s have been. They always reported that the door is very tough. Rejecting you for "speaking english" was probably not the real reason he refused you but probably because he thought that you didn`t fit the crowd of that night. I know people from the US that have been inside + they have international DJs so I really believe that "english" was not the real point...

Coming back to the legal / illegal issue. Every club in Germany has the so called "house right" which means that they can decide whom they let in and whom not. That`s not illegal in Germany but just a fact and the way it is, so every club basically "chooses" the audience it likes, which is no different anywhere in the world that I`ve been to (I got rejected by a bouncer in New York on Halloween this year because we were two guys and had no girls with us...).

Sorry you had a bad experience. Maybe you can try again some other night.

Yeah, I actually don't mind being rejected for simply not looking the part as much as being rejected for my language/nationality.

I respect the 'house right' of most clubs, and I usually take a lot of precautions to try and fit into what most clubs are looking for--I get dressed up, bring my girl friends, don't show up drunk...etc, etc. It was a little tough to look proper in line that night since it was below freezing outside and I was pretty bundled up in a hat and scarf. Oh well, I had a great time in Berlin otherwise with almost everyone I met being extremely accommodating and friendly. Next time I see the city I'll try a different club though.

I�m sorry, too.
But don�t bother or think about the reasons.
In Hamburg there was a time, you were rejected for wearing the wrong shoes

I'd be more pissed about waiting in line for 45 minutes. I hate lines. they are absolutely superfluous. I spend too much of my life WAITING. I think we - humans as a collective - should just un-invent the concept of waiting.

Anyway, I am sorry to hear about your bad experience.

here in munich they wouldn't have left you inside because you didn't have a personal invitation. that's just an excuse. i don't know why bouncers just don't have the balls to tell you what is really wrong...

Waiting in Line @ Berghain to get in is like gambling , no matter who you are or where you come from !
( by the way , 30 - 50 % of the Guests are Tourist )
That depends only on the mood of the
Doorkeeper !
So please , don�t feel discriminate !
I know a lot of fine Clubbers who never made it into the Berghain !
Berlin has much more to offer !
Check out :
Tresor
Centrum
Maria
Pulp Mansion
Tape Club
Watergate ...

Re: Rejected from Berghain for speaking English

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis Berghain should be exposed for condoning illegal discriminatory door policies.

nothing like "illegal discriminatory door policies" - as Veit already said, it�s "house right", which actually is not different to any other country I�ve been to sofar - be it clubs in Bangkok, London, Ibiza, WashingtonDC, Greece, Italy etc etc etc

you don�t fit the profile - you don�t get let in.

sorry for you that you didn�t make it to Berghain.
But as far as I�m concerned the bouncers at Berghain pretty much know who fits in and who doesn�t. Believe me, despite the hype about Berghain it�s actually not a club for everyone to like - you should probably trust the bouncer�s judgement.
And as Jordan said, getting into Berghain is a gamble for most people. That�s just the way it is.

It is indeed illegal to reject individuals from a public establishment based on factors such as: race, gender, or national origin, without posted notice and a compelling interest.

Having a 'house right' gives a club a huge amount of leeway to decide who enters (and I don't mind being rejected for not looking the part), but they certainly can't reject someone purely for speaking a different language or being from another country.

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis It is indeed illegal to reject individuals from a public establishment based on factors such as: race, gender, or national origin, without posted notice and a compelling interest.

...and there is the problem: a club isn't puplic, it belongs to its owner.
it's always a discrimination, no matter what fact the bouncer gives, but it's like having a party @ home: if you don't like someone, you won't let him get in...

I'm sorry, I'm didn't mean to get into a legal argument over a technicality, but a nightclub, like most other businesses, is legally "public" despite being privately owned. In this sense, McDonald's is public, Starbucks is public, the movie theater is public, and Berghain is public.

Unless a nightclub takes a number of steps like requiring an application process and issuing membership cards, it's not a private club in the legal sense. Berghain is still relying on people off the streets ('the public') to fill its club, rather than a pre-set member list, and thus is a public institution.

And the point is moot anyway (at least in the US)--courts have held that even strictly private institutions, like exclusive Golf clubs or New York City's historic alumni clubs, while allowed to have incredibly strict standards for determining membership, cannot discriminate on some core criteria, like race, gender and nationality.

I really am over the Berghain thing I guess--if I was rejected for not being cool enough (and I'm sure I've proved that fact by arguing about legal terms on the internet) then that's OK with me. Just don't tell me that I'm being rejected for the language I speak or the country I was born in.

would be interesting if there is some leading case in germany...

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis ... Just don't tell me that I'm being rejected for the language I speak ...

hell no, everone here can guarantee that,

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis or the country I was born in

as long as you were not born in texas

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Paris hell no, everone here can guarantee that, as long as you were not born in texas

Agreed!

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis I'm sorry, I'm didn't mean to get into a legal argument over a technicality, but a nightclub, like most other businesses, is legally "public" despite being privately owned. In this sense, McDonald's is public, Starbucks is public, the movie theater is public, and Berghain is public. Unless a nightclub takes a number of steps like requiring an application process and issuing membership cards, it's not a private club in the legal sense. Berghain is still relying on people off the streets ('the public') to fill its club, rather than a pre-set member list, and thus is a public institution.

one word: bullshit.
have a laugh and try to enter some of the nicer shops on rodeo drive and see if the doorman even lets you get near the door
or try to get into a 5-star-restaurant looking like a crackhead (and not being pete).
let�s see if your idea of a public institution is then enforced in the states. i�d be surprised.

quote:

And the point is moot anyway (at least in the US)

then come to grips that you are in some other country and not in the states. you might notice that despite what you might think that different countries have different laws.

quote:

I really am over the Berghain thing I guess--if I was rejected for not being cool enough

and that�s probably the main point why you don�t get it - Berghain and pretty much most other clubs do not select because you are not "cool" enough but because you won�t fit in on this or that night. be it too many guys in the club, too many gays, too many girls, too many foreigners, whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by NetX one word: bullshit. have a laugh and try to enter some of the nicer shops on rodeo drive and see if the doorman even lets you get near the door or try to get into a 5-star-restaurant looking like a crackhead (and not being pete). let�s see if your idea of a public institution is then enforced in the states. i�d be surprised.

Those examples you gave only support my point, which apparently you missed. Public institutions have great leeway in allowing or denying entrance to individuals for a variety of reasons (such as looking like a crackhead or simply not looking cool). However, they can't reject you for being a woman, for being Jewish, for being German, for speaking Spanish, or for any other distinction based on race, gender, religion, nationality or language. Those are protected classes, both under national law and international law, and even an exclusive club like Berghain cannot, in good faith, use them to deny people.

(And not to be a total douchebag, which maybe you think I already am, but I'm an attorney with a large law firm in Manhattan, and I've never had trouble shopping on Rodeo Drive or getting a table at a restaurant.)

Jemand schon mal n Anwalt im Berghain gesehen ?

Berghain is no 'public institution', it is a private one.

So THEY can decide, who they let in, and who not.

Like NetX already mentioned, just go to the next club.

I didnt come in to other parties in the past as well. Who cares.

hehe one was too funny:

A dookeper told me, that i am too young - But he was 10 years younger than me

But anyways - i went to another club and had fun there.

Dont trust the 'reason' they told you. Indeed, it was not really nice to tell you 'you cant come in, causing you speak english'

You just didnt fit for this night into the club, dont worry and keep smiling.

Did you read anything I wrote about the difference between private and public institutions?

I'm not using the terms colloquially--I'm using them in the legal sense, and in the legal sense, a nightclub like Berghain is public.

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis Did you read anything I wrote about the difference between private and public institutions? I'm not using the terms colloquially--I'm using them in the legal sense, and in the legal sense, a nightclub like Berghain is public.

yes i did.

and in legal sense, Berghain is private.

I dunno how it is in the US, but in DE it is - trust me !

so they can say: bah i dont like your face, you dont come in here.

even if you a have a ticket.

this is NOT illegal ! It's THEIR private room, THEY can decide.

So hard it is, and so bad it feels, but they are on the safe side.

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis Did you read anything I wrote about the difference between private and public institutions? I'm not using the terms colloquially--I'm using them in the legal sense, and in the legal sense, a nightclub like Berghain is public.

you might consider different laws in different countries?

as you consider yourself an attorney with a large law firm im Manhattan (wow, i�m impressed...) you should actually accept that point.

why should berghain, who operates under german law, give a damn about what might be a law somewhere else in the world?

but still, go ahead and sue them

quote:

Originally posted by Nero73 Jemand schon mal n Anwalt im Berghain gesehen ?

ja.
und banker.
und einkaufsleiter.

genauso auch zuh�lter.
und nutten.

wie in jedem anderen club halt auch.

OK, everyone:



I get it.

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