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truth.

War = Money

I wonder how long until other countries decide that they've had enough of us interfering with the affairs of other nations.

"We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." - Abraham Lincoln, 1862

"We must disenthrall ourselves..." - Bill Clinton, 2006

"Wake Up." - Rage Against The Machine, 1992

The "truth" is; This thread belongs over in the "political debate" forum, where it can be roundly criticized for the propaganda that it is.

c'mon man! where's the more important news... britney spears?!

it's just sad to know that a lot of people are still ignorant of what truly happens outside our "safe" country

I think the west coast should have a meaningful discussion every once in a while. We demand change!

amen gerard!

"Meaningful?" Right. I'd be willing to bet that JC got tired of having his propaganda refuted over in the Political Forum, so he came here to try it out.

Can he even debate? Or is he one of those posters that surfs the web for shoddy conspiracy-theory videos and sub-par clever photo-shop pix of his arch nemesis (George Bush), who then posts them as if by doing so alone is in and of itself, some sort of relevant debate?

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco "Meaningful?" Right. I'd be willing to bet that JC got tired of having his propaganda refuted over in the Political Forum, so he came here to try it out. Can he even debate? Or is he one of those posters that surfs the web for shoddy conspiracy-theory videos and sub-par clever photo-shop pix of his arch nemesis (George Bush), who then posts them as if by doing so alone is in and of itself, some sort of relevant debate?

your "bet" is incorrect.

you obviously failed to listen.
sounds like death for oil is okay with you...

you should really look up the definition to "fascism"...
better yet... do you understand the logistics of "war corporatism"?

do you know who runs THE UNITED DEFENSE?... our political leaders... your president... they are head of this weapon manufacturing COMPANY that makes billions... you should really know what you are defending before you start running your mouth...

two documentaries...

why we fight: http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/
zeitgeist: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

" Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.

War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.

In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. . . . [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and . . . degeneracy of manners and of morals. . . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. . . .

[It should be well understood] that the powers proposed to be surrendered [by the Third Congress] to the Executive were those which the Constitution has most jealously appropriated to the Legislature. . . .

The Constitution expressly and exclusively vests in the Legislature the power of declaring a state of war . . . the power of raising armies . . . the power of creating offices. . . .

A delegation of such powers [to the President] would have struck, not only at the fabric of our Constitution, but at the foundation of all well organized and well checked governments.

The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted.

The separation of the power of raising armies from the power of commanding them, is intended to prevent the raising of armies for the sake of commanding them.

The separation of the power of creating offices from that of filling them, is an essential guard against the temptation to create offices for the sake of gratifying favourites or multiplying dependents. "

" I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. "

" In the counsels of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. "

" Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power. "

" Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. "

" The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war. Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists. "

quote:

Originally posted by R!CH why we fight: http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

i love how the business man in suit and tie blatently said to the camera "COLLUSION WITH THE MILITARY IS OUR BUSINESS."

haha. if that's not obvious i don't know what is...

quote:

Originally posted by Junior Chavez do you know who runs THE UNITED DEFENSE?... our political leaders... your president... they are head of this weapon manufacturing COMPANY that makes billions... you should really know what you are defending before you start running your mouth...

donny?...

quote:

Originally posted by Junior Chavez i love how the business man in suit and tie blatently said to the camera "COLLUSION WITH THE MILITARY IS OUR BUSINESS." haha. if that's not obvious i don't know what is...

here's the full thing...

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco The "truth" is; This thread belongs over in the "political debate" forum, where it can be roundly criticized for the propaganda that it is.

Truth is Donnie needs to shut up and stop acting like those old school Giant board ******s that don't go out any more.


Donnie! Call me, lets do dinner.

quote:

Originally posted by Junior Chavez donny?...

I watched your weak-ass video. "Who's next? ...France? Britain? None of us are really safe from THEM!" Are you kidding me!?!



So now we're on our way to attacking our close allies? But oh no, this isn't a conspiracy theory video, right? Please...

So tell me; If war is such a profitable enterprise, why is our dollar near worthless as a result of fighting this costly war? We're printing more money to pay for the war all the time, driving up inflation and devaluing our dollar. These same people who allegedly "profit" from the war aren't benefiting from their dollar being weaker, any more than you and I are.

Of course, 9-11 was "a pretext" for us to start a war, according to your video, right? So what would you have suggested we do instead; Sit back and do nothing? You're saying that the war against terrorism shouldn't be being fought, because it's not about that at all, but is in fact about making money for corporate war industries in the U.S.? Do you know how idiotic that sounds? Do you even know WHY we were attacked on 9-11?

You should try looking past complex fantasies, and focus on common sense and the obvious when it comes to this war. Conspiracy Theorists love to ignore base logic for some reason...

quote:

Originally posted by Junior Chavez ...sounds like death for oil is okay with you... ...you should really know what you're defending before you start running your mouth...

As for this war being "all about oil", let me ask you; How do you get around in our country? Do you drive a car? Do you use electricity that comes from power plants that are generated by fossil fuels? Do you drink from plastic containers and use plastic products daily, like those found in your cell phone, your computer, your work-place, your transportation, your home, your CDJ's, etc?

Or are you magnanimously boycotting oil (since you're so self-righteous about it) and sending your unused portions to the less fortunate throughout the world? Or are you in fact, taking full advantage of all that oil has to offer you in this country?

What do you think Saddam Hussein was trying to do by invading Kuwait, when he went after their oil? Are you saying you'd rather see him alive and well and in control of the majority of the world's oil supply?

Of course wars in the middle east are ultimately going to be fought over oil. But it's a war driven by consumers like YOU!!! You want to blame someone in THIS country for the war being about oil, then blame yourself, "The CONSUMER!" The oil has to go somewhere, and it certainly isn�t being drunk by the �war-mongering� Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. It�s being sucked up by all of us! And it has nothing to do with being a Republican or a Democrat. Oil doesn�t make distinctions like that. Do you think consumerism is going to end with a change in the White House?

So now that you've chosen a side to fight against (George Bush and the entire United States), don't you think it's high-time you renounce all plastic, wrap a towel around your head, and hot-foot it over to Afghanistan to join the Taliban, where you can get back to your roots and live in some imagined Utopian dream-world that's a throw back to the caveman days, and is fully devoid of oil?

Please...if there's one thing that's more sickening than an uneducated, feel-good Liberal, it's a hypocritical oil-sucking one.

Maybe you should think about your role as an "oil consumer" before YOU start running YOUR mouth!?

quote:

Originally posted by JCIZZLE! Truth is Donnie needs to shut up and stop acting like those old school Giant board ******s that don't go out any more. Donnie! Call me, lets do dinner.

I'll be seeing you again before you know it, JC. Let's just hope that we can have an amicable reunion, and that you're not buying in to any more conspiracy theories yourself...like the kind being floated by psycho-bitch ex-girlfriend's of mine.

wait, i thought this Iraq war was all about terrorism and not the abundance of oil which seeks to enrich these mofos like Cheney? remember, he still has a stake with haliburton.

and what the f&^k do they care if the value of the dollar goes down,they still get a larger share of the pot and still the poor get poorer. this is all about greed.

tell us now donnie aka mr. omniscient aka the enlightened one, explain to us how "terrorizing" other countries would benefit us in the long run?

looks like you are a master of every topic here at the boards. is this god?

quote:

Originally posted by Lomeli I think the west coast should have a meaningful discussion every once in a while. We demand change!

So no more Britney Spears, Amy Winehouse or Kim Kardashian threads?

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco The "truth" is; This thread belongs over in the "political debate" forum, where it can be roundly criticized for the propaganda that it is.

while the ending was a bit too much besides Iran/NK, this isnt propaganda. you can read PNAC yourself at http://www.newamericancentury.org/

quote:

Originally posted by Electrophile So no more Britney Spears, Amy Winehouse or Kim Kardashian threads?

I support equal opportunities. And crazy bitches...

quote:

Originally posted by gerard6975 ...and what the f&^k do they care if the value of the dollar goes down,they still get a larger share of the pot and still the poor get poorer. this is all about greed...

First off, George Bush and Vice President Cheney are not omnipotent powers. They don't just create and decree laws that SUPPOSEDLY "favor" them at will. Our defense budget is approved by Democrats & Republicans alike in the Senate. They'd have to be in on this "conspiracy" too, but what are the chances Democrats are trying to secretly help make Bush and Cheney rich? I know all about Halliburton, and I don't like it either. But what's going on with the wars currently is much larger than that. We were obviously attacked on 9-11 (I'll go in to why in a second).

Our defense budget is large, true. It always has been since the end of World War Two. But it's been that way as part of the modern doctrine for war, which is all about being at a heightened state of readiness. Thus winning or losing major wars in a matter of days, unlike the wars of attrition from the past. It's actually MORE cost effective in the long-run, versus protracted wars. We basically out-spent Russia on defense until they collapsed in financial ruin. But the cold war ended SAFELY in this way, proving that the best defense is a superior offense.

But getting back to the dollar; When this war on terror started, gold was at about $300.00 per ounce. Today, it's at $900.00! Currently, the Euro is at about $1.50 to the dollar...it's been even higher than that since 9-11, when the dollar was .85 cents to the Euro! Oil prices are through the roof (although much of that has to do with good ole supply and demand, as China comes on the world stage as a growing super-power). Point being, wars are NEVER profitable if they are PROTRACTED, as this war is now. On the flip-side, we are inflating the dollar out of it's debt, but it's a serious gamble we're taking as we print more money to cover the debt. I don't think ANYONE...especially wealthier people, who stand to lose the most when currency devalues...supports war for war's sake, when it historically can, and often does, ruin a country financially.

But why are we fighting this war then? It's not hard to figure out. What had Usama Bin Laden been saying from the start? He'd been saying that he wants our military bases out of Saudi Arabia, the holy-land of Mecca...bases that were put there after the first Gulf War to deter Saddam Hussein from attacking in to Saudi Arabia, or even Kuwait again...thus the reason for UBL's "Jihad" against the Infidels.

So after 9-11, in order to remove the impetus for further Terrorist attacks, the bases needed to be closed (and due to other factors, like world oil supply and demand, which also then translates in to world safety and stability via safe and secure oil supplies). Saddam Hussein had to go!

WMD's were believed to have been there (remember, he wouldn't let the U.N. Inspectors in to his country anymore, as was part of the original agreement he made at the end of the first Gulf War...why? What was he hiding?), and there were other convincing pieces of evidence. Saddam also had 6 months to dispose of them if he had them. Who's to say he didn't?

And why would our government make up a story about WMD's, knowing that if we use that as a pretext to attack Iraq, that once we got in there, we wouldn't find any...thus creating a storm of world criticism? We too, have WMD's. If we really wanted to make up a grand conspiracy, we'd have brought some of our own along to "planted" them in Iraq!

Saddam Hussein wasn't stupid, even if he was a Dictator. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he disposed of his WMD's, knowing that he was going to lose the war anyway, and the only way he could win the war was in the court of world opinion.

But even if it was simply as it appears to have been...a case of poor intelligence that lead us to believe he had WMD's...that war was, and still is, about oil, in the end. That's why we were even in Saudi Arabia to begin with.

But our economy helps fuel much of the world's economy. If we sink, so does much of the world. And I for one, would MUCH rather have the corporate powers that be in this country in control of our economy, as opposed to leaving it in the hands of people like Saddam Hussein, or Russia, or China, or any other of the world powers that also want to control the oil, but do not have our best interests (which BTW, translates in to YOUR best interests, Consumers!) at heart!

The world's economic wheels are greased by oil. It's as necessary a commodity as air, water and food is on a daily basis. To say you are against war for oil is at the height of hypocrisy and self-righteousness. You can no more control your need for it than you can make yourself not ever eat, breath or drink water again. Oil is just woven too tightly in to our economic fabric to be so flippantly dis-regarded.

Like I said before to Chavez; If you are REALLY against oil, then give it up COMPLETELY and move away from this form of economy we have, and go find one that doesn't rely on oil (and I wish you good luck with that!! lol).

Until then, get off your soap box about it.

donny you're so full of shit you require 2 flushes

lol

quote:

Originally posted by Junior Chavez lol

^^^Like I said; Can't debate, just surfs the web for inflammatory rhetoric videos and pictures to post.

E-O-M!

quote:

Originally posted by R!CH donny you're so full of shit you require 2 flushes

Really? Then show me the way Grasshopper, show me the way!

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Really? Then show me the way Grasshopper, show me the way!

wow where do i start??? why don't you first explain to me your fuzzy logic for how you arrived at the conclusion that companies like halliburton are losing money as a result of inflation when from the end of 2002 (the mobilization leading up to the iraq invasion) to 2006 (prior to the string of congressional investigations into the company) their stock value blew up 600% while the dollar inflated by less than 0.3 against the euro? then we can move on to your lack of political and historical context in trying to explain how defense works in the united states.

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