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Beginner's Question

I am very new to making electronica/trance and have been using FL studio solely. I have been looking into hardware lately, not just midi controllers but sequencers and keyboards. After looking through the 'spec' section of a few keyboards I have notices that they seem to have a built in sequencer. Is it true that I can just use that sequencer with the keyboard for most major keyboards? Should I just continue with Fl Studio? If I take the plunge into hardware focused production, what is the list of basic things I need?

Any answers are very much appreciated.

Re: Beginner's Question

quote:

Originally posted by K1DUK If I take the plunge into hardware focused production, what is the list of basic things I need?

90% chance can't afford it. stick with your computer and a few hardware synths/fx.

for the record:
mixer
midi sequencer
audio recording doodad (eg. a 4-track)
sampler
fx units (delay, eq, compression, gate, reverb, etc.)
synths

that will get you started. probably looking at about 5-10,000 for "ok" quality stuff. for mixing, recording and sequencing, hardware cannot compete with a computer. making songs is a lot easier and faster on a computer, rather than mashing buttons on a 2" monocrome lcd screen.

Can I ask you what is it that makes you want to go hardware?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Can I ask you what is it that makes you want to go hardware?

i think he thinks it is what professionals use.

Stick with software.
Here's what I would invest in if I were you. My personal recommendations are in parenthesis.

Audio interface (Echo Audiofire 2 or 4)
Monitors (Event TR6, Alesis M1 MkII)
Midi controller keyboard (Novation Remote SL)
Headphones (AKG k240s)
Better VST plugins (z3ta+, Albino, Korg Legacy Collection, V-Station, Gladiator)
Sample CDs (Vengeance Essential Clubsounds 1 and 2)

all dogs should be in bee costumes

With that budget, I'd get an Access Virus TI. It integrates with your sequencing software, so it's the best of both the hardware and software worlds and it's perfectly suited for trance. You'll still want to get good monitors, audio interface, etc. and Eldritch's recommendations are good. I'll also add a recommendation for Battery 3 and/or Stylus RMX for drums.

As far as the software goes, any sequencing package will get you good results. If you're looking to move up from FLS, here are several good options:

Sonar 7 - my personal favorite (PE version comes with Z3TA, btw - a great soft synth); PC only
Cubase 4 - my second favorite
Live - never used it, but many accomplished producers do and swear by it
Logic - never used it, but another widely used app (Mac only)

Keep in mind that any of these apps are going to have a much steeper learning curve than FLS. Also, you'll get more/better MIDI features with any of these apps, but you're also paying for audio recording features. So, think about your long-term plans - if you think that you'll be doing any recording in the future, that could affect your buying decision. HTH.

i understand totaly if u wanna go hardware its pretty boring sitting infront of the computer but you should realy learn everything on a computer first, then if u feel ur going to do this big time then u can look on some akai stuff for sequencing, its so much more fun but it takes hell of a lot more time and if u want to change something u already made it takes even more time. computer is alot easier, faster and better. though hardware is REALY FUN if u can afford it all.

i'm going to go against most people in this thread and say:

don't buy any expensive hardware synths, stick with FL. certainly do not buy any hardware sequencers unless you have tried them out and are 100% definate that's the direction you want to go. sequencing in hardware is a joke compared to using computers, but it has it's applications (live work, etc.).

it is too early for you to be going and buying a virus ti. you won't even fully understand what an oscillator or envelope is for another year, so it is pointless. HOWEVER! i do strongly recommend you buy an entry-level synth/midi controller, such as a novation k-station or x-station. this way you have a very solid hardware synth to learn, and also a midi controller to start making music with. if you get an x-station, it has an OK quality soundcard built in, which is pretty awesome for a begginner rig!

also, i think FL is the best way to get into music. it is very easy to use, but can do 99% of the things a high end program can do. i used FL for about 3 years before shifting to cubase in the last ~3 years. i can honestly tell you that there is nothing i can do in cubase that i couldn't do in FL. IN FACT, there are some things i CAN'T do in cubase that i could in FL. the only reason i am not using FL is because it has poor multicore CPU support and the dev is being a dick about it, so i choose not to support it.

this is what i recommend you buy, in order:

1. novation x-station (no sound card needed, as it is inbuilt)
2. Headphones (AKG 240)
3. VSTis (legacy collection analog, massive, fm8, nexus)
4. Sample CDs (Vengeance lol)
5. VST effects (voxengo, sonalksis, wavearts, camelaudio)
6. Monitors (Behringer Truths, Event TR6s or Yamaha HS80Ms)

Hmm. It depends on the status of this money. If you have loads and it's just "extra" money, where it doesn't matter at all whether or not you spend it, then go nuts.

But if you're just starting out with producing, how do you know you'll be up for all the learning and frustration that the journey entails? It may be better to stick with FL for the time being and only look for further purchases as you become aware you need them.

Then you can take your time with purchases. A lot of hardware goes through ebay, sometimes at astonishingly good prices. If you just wait for the right priced gear, and produce using what you have in the meantime, building your skills, then you'll end up with a lot more synths or other hardware then you would if you went on a massive shopping spree straight up.

I've never tried using any of my synth's onboard sequencers. I can't imagine why I'd want to, since I want to combine sounds from all my synths, as well as samples on my computer. I'm currently using Cubase 4 (with Reason and Live rewired into it), and it handles audio recording fine.

Try one of these synth's sequencers out at your local music store. I'm pretty sure it'd be just for using that synth's sounds, not recording other sounds into it. I don't think they'd have CD burners in them...give them a go, then you'll know what's what!

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm it is too early for you to be going and buying a virus ti. you won't even fully understand what an oscillator or envelope is for another year, so it is pointless.

It took you a YEAR to figure out what an oscillator and envelope do?! I could've explained them to you in a few paragraphs.

OP - if you decide to go with a hardware synth, Virus or otherwise, you will learn it the same way everybody else does - by reading the manual and (especially) by turning the knobs. Despite the previous claim, it will only take you a few hours before you're making sounds with it and you won't break anything by turning the knobs. Incidentally, you would do the same thing with a software synth, the only difference is that the knobs for the oscillators, envelopes, etc. are just visual representations that you turn with the mouse.

I absolutely recommend that you buy a hardware synth and I commend you for thinking beyond FLS. One of the best things you can do as a musician is to turn off your f@#ing computer once in a while and just play your synth, piano, guitar, drums, or whatever. People have been making music that way for quite some time now and it seems to be a good approach. Unfortunately, this concept seems to be lost on many "producers."

hardware is TEH PWN OMGWUT

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik It took you a YEAR to figure out what an oscillator and envelope do?! I could've explained them to you in a few paragraphs.

Would you mind explaining them to me? I am pretty lost on the technical aspect.


Thank all of you for your input, it has been very valuable. I think for the time-being I will get a K or X-station and then proceed as my need grows. Even though I can, I agree that I shouldn't buy all or the most expensive gear right now.

quote:

Originally posted by K1DUK Would you mind explaining them to me? I am pretty lost on the technical aspect.

Here's the simple utilitarian explanation. Your X-Station manual will give you the details.

Oscillator - the sound source. This is what generates the synth's most basic sounds, which are then modified by other parts of the synth (e.g., envelopes, filters, LFOs). The X-Station has 3 oscillators, which can be used individually or combined.

Envelope - controls the shape of the sound over time. Usually has controls for attack, decay, sustain, and release as a minimum. For example, you set these controls to make your sound come in abrubtly and die off relatively quickly (e.g., like a piano), hold a note at one level (e.g., like a flute), stop playing immediately when a key is released (e.g., like a flute) or die away slowly (e.g., like a gong). Envelopes control the overall sound, but can also be used to control how other parameters (e.g., filters) of the synthesizer behave over time.

BTW, the X-Station is a good choice. I had one a few years ago and really enjoyed it. Kind of wish I had kept it to use with my laptop, but I had 12 hardware synths at the time and the wife said some had to go when the kid came along.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik It took you a YEAR to figure out what an oscillator and envelope do?! I could've explained them to you in a few paragraphs.

it was an over exaggeration, but you know what i mean. he wont be skilled enough at sound design any time soon to make much better sounds on a ti than he could on a softsynth...

Spend a year learning software, sound design, structure, arrangement and have an idea as to how you want to approach your sound.

After that if you're still interested in making music and have some common knowledge of producing, go into deep thought as to why you would need or want hardware. Software has come a long way.

p.s: 5,000-10,000$ is a LOT of money. Chances are you will regret it unless you won the lottery. And if you won the lottery, just go and buy all the things sweetwater has in stock.

quote:

Originally posted by jupiterone p.s: 5,000-10,000$ is a LOT of money. Chances are you will regret it unless you won the lottery. And if you won the lottery, just go and buy all the things sweetwater has in stock.

Ditto

I just wanted to say that I think some of you did a great job helping this guy out; I'm sure he appreciates the suggestions (as I do). Kudos!

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm i'm going to go against most people in this thread and say: don't buy any expensive hardware synths, stick with FL. certainly do not buy any hardware sequencers unless you have tried them out and are 100% definate that's the direction you want to go. sequencing in hardware is a joke compared to using computers, but it has it's applications (live work, etc.). it is too early for you to be going and buying a virus ti. you won't even fully understand what an oscillator or envelope is for another year, so it is pointless. HOWEVER! i do strongly recommend you buy an entry-level synth/midi controller, such as a novation k-station or x-station. this way you have a very solid hardware synth to learn, and also a midi controller to start making music with. if you get an x-station, it has an OK quality soundcard built in, which is pretty awesome for a begginner rig! also, i think FL is the best way to get into music. it is very easy to use, but can do 99% of the things a high end program can do. i used FL for about 3 years before shifting to cubase in the last ~3 years. i can honestly tell you that there is nothing i can do in cubase that i couldn't do in FL. IN FACT, there are some things i CAN'T do in cubase that i could in FL. the only reason i am not using FL is because it has poor multicore CPU support and the dev is being a dick about it, so i choose not to support it. this is what i recommend you buy, in order: 1. novation x-station (no sound card needed, as it is inbuilt) 2. Headphones (AKG 240) 3. VSTis (legacy collection analog, massive, fm8, nexus) 4. Sample CDs (Vengeance lol) 5. VST effects (voxengo, sonalksis, wavearts, camelaudio) 6. Monitors (Behringer Truths, Event TR6s or Yamaha HS80Ms)

1+

Kopi =o.

Can anybody recommend some well-written beginner's guide to electronic music-type books? I've done some searching and it seems like many books are concerned with exploring the music's history and/or cultural/social signficance. I'm, however, interested in learning about the basics (from the very beginning so-to-speak haha) of EDM production. Any help would be appreciated

quote:

Originally posted by cenik Can anybody recommend some well-written beginner's guide to electronic music-type books? I've done some searching and it seems like many books are concerned with exploring the music's history and/or cultural/social signficance. I'm, however, interested in learning about the basics (from the very beginning so-to-speak haha) of EDM production. Any help would be appreciated

Do you have any production friends? You could team up with them and maybe watch how they make tracks and other stuff.. maybe get with someone on msn and ask some questions.. I am sure there will be people who will help. There is a lot of stuff online in different forums here and there, how to do things. I don't have too much time lately, but if you're in GTA you could maybe meet with someone from this forum to show you the basics..

quote:

Originally posted by cenik Can anybody recommend some well-written beginner's guide to electronic music-type books? I've done some searching and it seems like many books are concerned with exploring the music's history and/or cultural/social signficance. I'm, however, interested in learning about the basics (from the very beginning so-to-speak haha) of EDM production. Any help would be appreciated

There's "The Dance Music Manual" by Rick Snoman, which is/was a pretty good all-encompassing reference. The problem with the book is that it was written in 2004 and, with the rate that software has improved over the past four years, much of the discussion of production tools and techniques is barely relevant nowadays. Ditto for some of the discussions of electronica genres/subgenres/styles. But, it's got some good discussions of basic music theory, mixing, mastering, etc., so it's worth picking up, especially if you can find it second-hand.

I agree with DJDIRTY - if you can find someone to mentor you, you'll get going much quicker than you will with any book.

Regarding the question on books for electronic music production - there's not much joy to be found (well, I haven't found it). The Dance Music Manual is quite simplistic, so it depends what stage you're at. But I guess that's the problem - there are certain basics, but after that every producer goes their own way and puts together sounds in their own way, so there is no "this is what every advanced producer/ engineer does". After the basics, it's up to each one of us to keep learning and work out how we personally are going to use compressors, delays, eqs, reverbs and so on to achieve our sound.

In terms of general mixing, I like Bobby Owsinski's "The mixing engineer's handbook". It's not all applicable to electronic music, but it has a lot of interviews with professional mix engineers, talking about their mixing philosophies. The book doesn't get very prescriptive, in terms of how to set your eqs and compressors, but it does a good job of capturing these engineer's thought processes.

Torsten Fassbender's "The Waves experience" (I think that's what it's called, I don't have it to hand at this moment) is, on the other hand, a very prescriptive book/ DVD pack. The pack has three mixes of one of his (Wellenrausch) tracks, in complete form, in parts form and finally with every single track of the multitrack mix, so you can see how it all fits together. You can then experiment by changing the settings on each track. The book is really good, it comes with a writeup for each channel of each of the three mixes, explaining the settings used on that channel as well as why Torsten used those settings. As I said before, it's only one producer's way of putting sounds together, so it's not a complete picture, but Torsten has a nice clean powerful sound (I remember the Wellenraush remix of PPK's "resurrection" years back, remember thinking the same thing back then). So it could well be worth checking out, even if you just get it for the book (he deals with a number of general mixing philosophies as well, before getting into the mixes).

quote:

Originally posted by derail In terms of general mixing, I like Bobby Owsinski's "The mixing engineer's handbook".

+1

quote:

Originally posted by derail Torsten Fassbender's "The Waves experience"

Another +1. The book is actually called "The Trance Experience". Another book in the same series is "Production Mixing Mastering with Waves", which teaches you hands-on how to mix several different song styles. It's better at teaching you a wide range of mixing techniques (many of which you'd read about in Owsisnki's book), whereas "The Trance Experience" focuses much more on specific trance/electronica production techniques.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Another +1. The book is actually called "The Trance Experience". Another book in the same series is "Production Mixing Mastering with Waves", which teaches you hands-on how to mix several different song styles. It's better at teaching you a wide range of mixing techniques (many of which you'd read about in Owsisnki's book), whereas "The Trance Experience" focuses much more on specific trance/electronica production techniques.

...just want to add in here!

to get the most out of these books, you really need to be running the intended software. i'm pretty sure it is all cubase and logic project formats, but sonar may be included too. with "the waves experience", you obviously also need to actually have the waves bundle ($!!!).

these books teach by example, so you wont be able to follow it without opening the project files. you could get some basic understanding without doing this, but it won't be nearly as good imo.

unrelated: another good book on mixing is "mixing with your mind". it is less about any specific tricks and rules, and more about using your instinct. therefore, it is applicable to any genre really.

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