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The Decline of Black Progress?

According to U.S. census data, the average black family income as a percentage of the average white family income increased from 51% to 56% from 1947 to 1964. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 marked the beginning of the modern era of civil rights, but it also marked an apparent decline in the rate at which black families closed the gap with white families. From 1964 to 1990, black families made additional progress to reach 63% of the average income of white families. However, this 7% increase over 36 years is a marked decline in the rate of relative improvement versus 6% in 17 years from 1947 to 1964.

More striking, however, is that since 1990 there has been effectively no progress at all! It is clear that there is very little, if any, progress being made in that regard. This poses several questions:

Is this indicative of some problem or flaw in our civil rights laws? Is there institutionalized discrimination still taking place on a significant scale, or does the gap remain for other reasons? In particular, how can we account for the apparent downward trend in the economic advancement of blacks, even as the prevalence of racism and discriminatory practices has ostensibly decreased?

Any thoughts?

Re: The Decline of Black Progress?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Any thoughts?

Poor role models promoted by mainstream culture would be the tip of the iceberg. I'm afraid the answer to your question isn't one that can be honestly and openly discussed with out reactionary responses morelikely than not loaded with unfair and inaccurate accusations that obfuscate the enitre discussion or any legitimate point being made. But here's a question, what do you have in mind?

Re: The Decline of Black Progress?

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Originally posted by Arbiter According to U.S. census data, the average black family income as a percentage of the average white family income increased from 51% to 56% from 1947 to 1964... From 1964 to 1990, black families made additional progress to reach 63% of the average income of white families. However, this 7% increase over 36 years is a marked decline in the rate of relative improvement versus 6% in 17 years from 1947 to 1964...

The year 1964+36years would bring us to the year 2,000...not "1990". So that's a "7% increase in 26 years", not "36 years". So the "decline" (if it truly is one) is not as dramatic as you think.

Are you sure you're reading all of this correctly? Extrapolating Census data selectively can be very mis-leading, especially when it's not correlated properly with other relative data.

Systematic racism is very much alive and well. This ties in with the abortion thread too because you can't legislate morality. At the end of the day it end up being just words on a piece of paper.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild Systematic racism is very much alive and well. This ties in with the abortion thread too because you can't legislate morality. At the end of the day it end up being just words on a piece of paper.

That's definitely one aspect of it.

This is how bullshit information gets started on it's way to becoming "fact"!

Someone posts some out of context and even INACCURATE data...where they can't even get the percentages right despite BASIC math...and all of the sudden, it's proof once again of the GREAT "Racial Conspiracy" going on in America, and everyone jumps on board as fast as they can to show that they are sensitive to the plight of the nonexistent repressed, because they are "cool like that".



Talk about being blinded to see what you want to see.

Where is Trancer when you need him? He should be all over this mis-information in support of it...thus lending it by association the proper discredit that it deserves.

Even here in multicultural Canada, we have gone from 2008 to 1958.... Toronto District School Board has just approved "Black School" - a black focused school for inner city black high risk youth in a vain attempt to get them to get a Diploma instead of a prison sentance.

link

This will accomplish two things:

1: segregate the black students even further from the evil whitey kids

2: potentially supply them with a highschool diploma that wont be recognized by post secondary institutions as on par with a regular GED from an ontario public shcool.


Whats worse? The idea was thought up by a black education proffessor, supported mainly by the black community, and the idiots on the TDSB actually endorsed the idea. Even further, $860,000 of my tax money is going into this money pit. This whole project was concocted to combat the 40% dropout rate among black youth in toronto.... but i dont think its the "white man's" schoolin thats the problem, i think the large proponent of this is caused by parents that have a significant dis-interest in their childs education, moreover, parents that do not properly motivate their kids to A: attend school regularly, B: do well in shcool. Any parent that accepts their kids D+ average should be kicked in the head.

Ah good thing we don't have too many blacks here. I am sure this is only a black thing in Canada and Gringoland. Supported by stupid white racists as well. Anyone that wants for schools to be segregated by color is a racist.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco This is how bullshit information gets started on it's way to becoming "fact"! Someone posts some out of context and even INACCURATE data...where they can't even get the percentages right despite BASIC math...and all of the sudden, it's proof once again of the GREAT "Racial Conspiracy" going on in America, and everyone jumps on board as fast as they can to show that they are sensitive to the plight of the nonexistent repressed, because they are "cool like that". Talk about being blinded to see what you want to see. Where is Trancer when you need him? He should be all over this mis-information in support of it...thus lending it by association the proper discredit that it deserves.

If you're going to be critical of the data he presented, especially with the kind of inflection in your post, you might want to consider backing up your criticism with some actual substance and contrary data. Just a thought.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z If you're going to be critical of the data he presented, especially with the kind of inflection in your post, you might want to consider backing up your criticism with some actual substance and contrary data. Just a thought.

I already refuted some of it. Check the math for yourself.

As a result, the legitimacy of the rest of this "data" is put in doubt by such inaccurate "facts".

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z If you're going to be critical of the data he presented, especially with the kind of inflection in your post, you might want to consider backing up your criticism with some actual substance and contrary data. Just a thought.

Most statistical data is up for debate. Numbers can be manipulated statistically to prove both sides of an argument in most cases. The problem with statistics is their inherant bias, most statistical models have such a narrow scope that they do not take into account all of the varying factors. for instance, in this case, did they use a national average salary of whites vs blacks, or did they weight it proportionally. Areas in the US with a larger population of affrican americans by percentage of total population, would have a higher probablility of having affrican americans among the higher percentiles of gross annual income. Whereas an area with a relatively low population of affrican americans would have lower probablility of being in the high percentiles.

If this stat is based on a national average, then it is severly skewed in my opinion.

Re: Re: The Decline of Black Progress?

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco The year 1964+36years would bring us to the year 2,000...not "1990". So that's a "7% increase in 26 years", not "36 years". So the "decline" (if it truly is one) is not as dramatic as you think.

You are correct; I did not pay much attention when transcribing Judge Posner's numbers. However, it is still a decline in the rate of improvement and compared with the decline in improvement since 1990 is a rather small one anyway. Incidentally, there has been little change, or a very small decline from 1990 to 2000, so it is still 7% over 36 years regardless.

quote:

Are you sure you're reading all of this correctly? Extrapolating Census data selectively can be very mis-leading, especially when it's not correlated properly with other relative data.

You can cite contravening data or perform your own analysis if you prefer, but in the meantime I will take the word of a sitting Federal Judge, especially when it is corroborated by other scholarly research.

That requires a subscription, so here's some the pertinent data:



This graph shows black wages as a percentage of white wages from 1940 to 2000. These numbers confine themselves to a couple of narrow age brackets, and only count income from wages, so they are probably not as representative as Posner's numbers when it comes to overall inequality. The data for females is interesting, and doesn't track with Posner's numbers very closely. However, male figures paint an even grimmer picture, where black men lost ground to whites from 1990 to 2000.

Now, back to the more relevant issue which unless you have some evidence to the contrary is not whether black progress has slowed, but why it has, Judge Posner has offered some possible explanations:

quote:

It is possible that antidiscrimination laws do not benefit their intended beneficiaries, because they give the beneficiaries a sense of entitlement and victimhood, foster tokenism, increase employers' costs, cast a shadow over the real achievements of outstanding members of the "benefited" group, create an unhealthy preoccupation with racial and ethnic identity, and cause white backlash. It is also possible that the sexual revolution of the 1960s promoted the break-up of the black family--of the white too, but the whites were in a better position to adapt. To the extent that the "Great Society" programs of the 1960s and the social disorder of the same period are correlated phenomena, together constituting a lurch to the Left, the net effect on black progress may have been negative.

The decline of the family unit strikes me as the most compelling of these explanations, for example while there certainly exists an unhealthy preoccupuation with racial and ethnic identity, this is not a phenomenon which has increased since 1964 by any means.

It's possible that single-parent families tend to have considerably less social mobility, and if that is the case, it would disproportionately affect blacks by a considerable margin(ref). I cannot find any data comparing the economic fortunes of children who grew up in single-parent households to those who did not, but it is a possibility.

Other cultural factors may affect the financial success of blacks; it is not a given that even with equal opportunity each ethnic group will achieve equal success due to possible differences in behavior patterns conducive to success or failure, or other cultural factors.

Of course, as Posner notes, "it is nowhere written that all ethnic groups shall have the same average income," and to the extent that this inequality remains because of the willing choices of blacks themselvs, the inequality need not be regarded as an inequity. The problem is that we cannot ascertain this extent with any certitude.

Shaolin_Z raised the issue of role models. This could certainly be one of the cultural phenomena which works against black progress. He also raised the fact that it is a very sensitive issue likely to be "loaded with unfair and inaccurate accusations that obfuscate the enitre discussion or any legitimate point being made." On that count, I agree as well.

Perhaps it also bears consideration that the stifling of open and honest discourse in favor of vain attempts to ignore the issue or pretend it doesn't exist (like donny) or to consider only a few possible factors which do not offend (as is fairly typical of the left,) may actually be contributing to the problem as well. Such a closed-minded approach does not appear to be very conducive of actually solving problems of inequality or inequity.

Zild believes that systematic racism is alive and well. I do believe that racism has declined, but I agree that we have not begun to approach eliminating it. What we have done is to by in large drive it into "hiding." This is not particularly a good thing, in part because it makes the problem of racism much more difficult to measure and address, and in part because it is an example of the sort of ideological repression that I believe to be at odds with the principles of an open society.

The "underground" racism rears its head from time to time in one scandal or another, for example the bizarre incident in which someone in the Harris County District Attorney's office used "Canadian" as a racial slur against blacks, but the truth is that the most problematic racists are also those who most closely guard their prejudice. With racists pretending to support racial equality, it becomes impossible to determine with any certitude the prevalence of racism. Furthermore, false or spurious accusations of racism have risen considerably, which has at least four significant negative effects:

1. It serves to stifle open and honest discussion of racial inequality.
2. It causes those of us who do not buy into the hysteria to view all claims of racism through a skeptical lens.
3. It reinforces the inordinate preoccupation with racial or ethnic identity which underlies racism and other forms of prejudice.
4. It makes genuine racism appear less evil by associating it with acts or beliefs which are relatively innocuous.

There has also been a significant re-framing of what constitutes racism. In the past, racism was essentially the idea that races were inherently unequal in their worth; that is, that some were inherently superior to others. More recently, however, it seems to extend to any form of prejudice or generalization with regards to race. It is certainly possible to generalize about a racial group without believing it to be inherently superior or inferior, or to pre-judge individuals with regards to some particular thing based on race without holding the belief in a superior race. It is even possible to hate an ethnic group without believing that it is inferior.

Multiculturalism may contribute negatively as well. While ironically devised as a way to celebrate our differences, it is truly a quixotic idea which rather serves more to emphasize that difference and suggest a shared "group identity" -- precisely what racists believe, only they believe the groups are unequal. Indeed, to on the one hand strive to eliminate racism, and on the other to uphold multiculturalism, as the left seems to attempt to do, strikes me as absurd. It is rather like trying to dampen oneself before running through a fire -- except this particular fool used gasoline! It seems that a better way to proceed would be to attempt to de-emphasize racial or ethnic identity at every turn. Our goal should not be to form a society where black culture, white culture, hispanic culture, et cetera co-exist in equality. It should be to create one, non-homogenous but also non-fragmentary culture where people work together with little or no regard for their varying ethnicities. In short, the best way to eliminate racism is to eliminate the very idea of people identifying themselves and others in terms of race. Now, that of course is not easy by any stretch of the imagination, and even in the best case scenario will probably take a large number of generations. But the troubling thing to me is that we seem to be moving in the opposite direction with multiculturalism. That is, it seems as though we are trying to reaffirm the idea of dividing ourselves into discrete groups. If that is not creating an environment in which racism might thrive, I don't know what is.

In short, there appear to be a large number of possible explanations for the observed data. Unfortunately, it seems there are few willing to discuss the matter openly (and fewer still who are in a position to actively investigate and address these problems.) If sensitivity to racial issues prevented us from eliminating racial inequity, that would be a cruel irony...

Re: Re: Re: The Decline of Black Progress?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The decline of the family unit strikes me as the most compelling of these explanations, for example while there certainly exists an unhealthy preoccupuation with racial and ethnic identity, this is not a phenomenon which has increased since 1964 by any means. It's possible that single-parent families tend to have considerably less social mobility, and if that is the case, it would disproportionately affect blacks by a considerable margin(ref). I cannot find any data comparing the economic fortunes of children who grew up in single-parent households to those who did not, but it is a possibility.

There is evidence that children that grow up in single parent households are worse off.

quote:

'Compared with teenagers of similar background who grow up with both parents at home [...] are twice as likely to drop out of high school, twice as likely to have a child before age twenty, and one and a half times as likely to be "idle" - out of school, out of work [...]' Growing Up With a Single Parent: What Hurts, What Helps By Sara McLanahan, Gary D. Sandefur

Source


Considering having a child during adolescence and/or dropping out of high school are correlated with poorer economic outcomes, it reasonable to assume that single household children are more likely to be economically worse off. This problem is usually compounded for black americans because they are also disproportionately of lower income, and therefore live in environments that are high in stress, low in social or familial support, and have poor quality schools. All things that affect quality of life and economical mobility in a negative way.

I also agree that the current structure of social aid does not advance black people as they merely provide them with more resources, but not the knowledge to use those extra resources in order to advance in life. In another thread I suggested that teaching young parents proper parenting methods, providing flexible child care spaces and increasing the quality of education in poor neighbourhoods can help decrease the gap between black americans and white americans.

Thread

This suggestion is basically something that I believe is lacking for black americans and is one of the major obstructions in eliminating the asymmetrical circumstances that prevail today.

Data, so called "facts", evidence, positions, opinions, accusations, presumptions and intellectual discourse can raise an already complicated issue to a level where it all becomes a blur.

That being said, I think it's fair to simplify and gel this over-considered and dated argument down to the bare bones of reality;

With all of the anti-discrimination laws we have had in place for decades now, coupled with hiring quotes and out-right favoritism (Affirmative Action) shown many minorities (including non-minority females) via the EOE programs of the 1980's and beyond, plus the breaks that were given to many minorities in terms of bank loans for homes and businesses, lowered SAT acceptance levels for college, and inner-city "busing" programs, etc...I feel that it's safe to say that enough equality exists now in this country between all of us that if ANYONE finds themselves socially at a level that is inferior to their peers, they can blame themselves.

This goes for anyone of any race or gender.

Look, not EVERYONE is created equal. In all races and genders, you will always have the Donald Trumps, or the P. Diddy's, or the Oprah Winfrey's who will rise to the top, self-made people of extraordinary talent and drive.

And then you will always have plenty of white trash, black trash, Hispanic trash, etc. But this myth that ALL blacks want to, or even can, rise above being in a lower class, if only they had another break here, or another free program there, is an absurd argument. Take a drive around this country sometime and you'll see PLENTY of "poh-white-trash". Being in a lower income class has nothing to do with any one races' color. It's just human nature!

It's like the lottery. It's been shown that something like 85% or more (if I recall correctly) of lottery winners will end up broke again within 5 years of winning an amount over a million dollars. Why? Because they were always meant to be what they are in life; Blue Collar. It's been this way throughout history. Every society has a blue collar class, a middle class, and an upper class. And it will never change.

This country is as free a country as you can possibly hope for, with a pretty good economy compared to most of the world's. You are what you make of yourself consequently. I have no sympathy for ANYONE who puts themselves where they are, and who then proceeds to gripe about it. They chose to be there. So let them be!

Accept it and move on.

Another factor may be stereotype threat. Though usually used in the confines of narrow, objectively measurable standards of achievement such as standardized tests and the like, it seems plausible that such psychological factors could affect success more generally. If so, then the promotion of the apparent gap in financial success between blacks and whites for the purposes of creating new programs to promote equality may itself contribute to the preservation of that gap.

i havent really examined race relations in particular detail but as a student of feminism i'd like to postulate the following idea:

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco With all of the anti-discrimination laws we have had in place for decades now, coupled with hiring quotes and out-right favoritism (Affirmative Action) shown many minorities (including non-minority females) via the EOE programs of the 1980's and beyond, plus the breaks that were given to many minorities in terms of bank loans for homes and businesses, lowered SAT acceptance levels for college, and inner-city "busing" programs, etc...I feel that it's safe to say that enough equality exists now in this country between all of us that if ANYONE finds themselves socially at a level that is inferior to their peers, they can blame themselves.

^^ this is the problem. formal and legislated "equality" is taken as evidence of actual equality, which it plainly isn't. equality in the form of legislation is merely a tool for breaking down institutionalised racism (or sexism) but it takes far more than a generation or two to reap real results.

if people merely look at anti-discrimination laws whilst ignoring the (very real) problems of institutionalised racism, they believe (as donny does) that there IS equality yet don't appreciate the informal barriers that exist that act in exactly the same ways as something like apartheid would. In a culture like the US, where the power balance is placed far in the hands of the employers, an employer doesn't have to tell a black man that he's not getting the job because he's black, so how does the formal equality laws really effect change for black prospective employees? Its very hard to prove discrimination in such an environment, especially when the overwhelming majority of people would use the formalised equality as evidence of actual equality.

According to germain greer (in the whole woman) anti-discrimination laws (specifically designed to combat sexism in the public sphere) in the UK have been utilised far more by men than they have by women. So legal frameworks are not the be-all and end-all of ending discrimination, and certainly not in a few generations.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Another factor may be stereotype threat. Though usually used in the confines of narrow, objectively measurable standards of achievement such as standardized tests and the like, it seems plausible that such psychological factors could affect success more generally. If so, then the promotion of the apparent gap in financial success between blacks and whites for the purposes of creating new programs to promote equality may itself contribute to the preservation of that gap.

Most definitely. It is a fine balance to strike between implementing programs that help and the effect the programs have of those who use them as people that need help. I think there are steps that can be taken to counteract such an effect however. The active integration, divulging and acceptance practices can go a long way into counteracting the perceived 'difference' between those accessing the help provided and those that do not. It has been suggested also that knowledge about the effects of mechanisms such as stereotype threat, halo effects, attribution biases and the like can be diminished by informing people about the effects they produce.

I think a problem with advancing and bettering the programs that are offered to help black americans get out of poverty is that there is no honest discussion about the subject. The information to construct a program that will work and is effective is available. There is however a lack of interest to actually develop these programs.

The likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the "civil rights movement" which should have been over with in the 1970's, has a lot of the black minority stuck in a systematic "victim" attitude towards society as a whole. A lot of them blame everybody but themselves for their own predicament.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ...if people merely look at anti-discrimination laws whilst ignoring the (very real) problems of institutionalised racism, they believe (as donny does) that there IS equality yet don't appreciate the informal barriers that exist that act in exactly the same ways as something like apartheid would. In a culture like the US, where the power balance is placed far in the hands of the employers, an employer doesn't have to tell a black man that he's not getting the job because he's black, so how does the formal equality laws really effect change for black prospective employees?

You don't even live here. What do YOU know about our culture, racism in America, and the realities of discrimination in the U.S. versus what MTV and Hip-Hop videos tell you about it?

Nothing. That's what.

You make some pretty long-shot predictions about "institutionalized" racism, like every white person in America has an Axe to grind with every black person. It's a fucking myth.

Why do you think that it's OK to hire someone based first on their skin color, as opposed to their abilities...and hire them preferentially OVER hiring someone who is more qualified, but who happens to be white? Is that not racism?

When EOE was in full swing near the beginning of its implementation, a small company I worked for hired two black people in the Sales Dept. One male, one female. Neither was NEAR qualified,even for this simple job, but the company was willing to train them, just so the company could meet its EOE obligations.

Within 6 months, after neither proved to be any good at Sales, they were both suing the company for alleged "discrimination" (because they were asked to meet their quotas and they couldn't) and parachuted out with a settlement.

Now, I'm not saying that ALL black people are like this. But I always felt that these two in particular never had ANY intention of taking advantage of this opportunity presented to them, and the lawsuit was a forgone conclusion from the day they were hired for a job they were not qualified for.

A bum is a bum! It doesn't matter if you're black or white (and yes, I say "black" because I hate that term "African American", which I consider to be a separatist, anti-American saying...we should all be considered "Americans" first in this country, regardless of where we come from). I've known plenty of black people whom I've worked with in the past who are worthy of their excellent positions. They worked for it and used their abilities, intelligence and work ethic to get themselves there. They didn't sit around expecting a hand-out. And I know from talking to successful black people in this country, that they feel the same way about being judged for WHO they are in terms of work, success and pay, and not for what color their skin is.

But you take ANY person of ANY color, who is not qualified for a position that they didn't earn, and thrust them in to it, and all you're going to get is failure and a lawsuit. It's all someone of a lower ability knows.

The failure of Affirmative Action is the myth that there is SO much racism going on that THIS is the reason certain blacks ended up where they did. When in reality, it had nothing to do with their being black. Certain people just end up where they do because they're fucking DUMB! End of story! Color has no bearing on this fact!

I worked at another company where two guys from Africa worked. They had been in the states for a few years and they BOTH had nothing but disdain for black Americans in this country who sit around expecting hand-outs, have a low (or no) work ethic, and who cry "racism" every time they're called on their laziness. These guys didn't see the supposed "racism" that we are told exists endlessly by liberal media outlets.

The best thing we can do for ourselves in this country today is to stop favoring people based on their skin color and just let the chips fall where they may. And to stop trying to call attention to our differences by referring to each other as "white" and "African American". It's separatist bullshit that Politicians and people like Jesse Jackson encourage so that they can pocket the support of supposed "repressed" minorities. Classic "divide and conquer" stuff.

And MANY blacks do feel this way too, as was recently pointed out in a thread by Lira on the CNN story that backfired about the Democratic Primary Race, where they'd suggested that black women faced a "dilemma" about who to vote for; A woman, or another black person (because they are all supposedly so mindless and only vote based on race or gender). Liberal presumptions about racism are often as flawed as REAL racism itself, IMHO.

Raisin, you're heart is in the right place, but your idealism is pure played-out, misguided, misinformed old hippie movement crap from the 60's. Get with the new millennium already.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the "civil rights movement" which should have been over with in the 1970's, has a lot of the black minority stuck in a systematic "victim" attitude towards society as a whole. A lot of them blame everybody but themselves for their own predicament.

1,000% agree.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the "civil rights movement" which should have been over with in the 1970's, has a lot of the black minority stuck in a systematic "victim" attitude towards society as a whole. A lot of them blame everybody but themselves for their own predicament.

Well there is plenty of blame to go around. While I agree that Jackson and Sharpton are not the best role models for black americans, to dismiss the cause they are fighting because you disagree with the methods they two choose to use is ludicrous. You can't just say, 'oh black people got only themselves to blame'. The issue is not nearly as simple as that. A serious problem with your position is, if only they are to blame, then why? Are they inherently different? Are white people inherently different? Why are they the only ones to blame? If your position is to be consistent then you would have to charge them with being different in some sense (negatively) then white people. To tell you the truth, I would love to see ANYONE try to defend that position.

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Originally posted by venomX A serious problem with your position is, if only they are to blame, then why? Are they inherently different? Are white people inherently different? Why are they the only ones to blame? If your position is to be consistent then you would have to charge them with being different in some sense (negatively) then white people. To tell you the truth, I would love to see ANYONE try to defend that position.

He didn't say "all black people". He said "a lot".

What's to defend?

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Originally posted by venomX Well there is plenty of blame to go around. While I agree that Jackson and Sharpton are not the best role models for black americans, to dismiss the cause they are fighting because you disagree with the methods they two choose to use is ludicrous. You can't just say, 'oh black people got only themselves to blame'. The issue is not nearly as simple as that. A serious problem with your position is, if only they are to blame, then why? Are they inherently different? Are white people inherently different? Why are they the only ones to blame? If your position is to be consistent then you would have to charge them with being different in some sense (negatively) then white people. To tell you the truth, I would love to see ANYONE try to defend that position.

I'm not denying there are no socio-economic factors influencing the the lower economic standards of blacks. But, it also takes the motivation to pull oneself out of economic hardship that can bring about positive change.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco You don't even live here.

so what? you seem all too happy to make comments about all kinds of things you're not personally privvy to, whats the difference?

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Originally posted by donnybrasco What do YOU know about our culture, racism in America, and the realities of discrimination in the U.S.

did you notice me talking about SEXISM, not racism? as well as the power relationship between workers and employers, which is the same across the world

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Originally posted by donnybrasco You make some pretty long-shot predictions about "institutionalized" racism, like every white person in America has an Axe to grind with every black person. It's a fucking myth.

dont put words in my mouth fool. i made no such predictions. i merely compared institutionalised issues with each other, and their relationship to legislated equality. You need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Why do you think that it's OK to hire someone based first on their skin color, as opposed to their abilities...and hire them preferentially OVER hiring someone who is more qualified, but who happens to be white? Is that not racism?

please highlight the part where i said that

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco When EOE was in full swing near the beginning of its implementation, a small company I worked for hired two black people in the Sales Dept. One male, one female. Neither was NEAR qualified,even for this simple job, but the company was willing to train them, just so the company could meet its EOE obligations.

irrelevant. i made no references to affirmative action so i dont know why youre banging on about it?

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Originally posted by donnybrasco The failure of Affirmative Action is the myth that there is SO much racism going on that THIS is the reason certain blacks ended up where they did. When in reality, it had nothing to do with their being black. Certain people just end up where they do because they're fucking DUMB! End of story! Color has no bearing on this fact!

where did i say there was a lot of racism going on? yes, there IS institutionalised racism, how much is up for debate. if you think formalised equality makes everything better after a few decades then you are sadly mistaken. laws don't change perception, and perception continues from generation to generation, albeit to a lesser degree. why do i believe there is racism in the workplace? because people are ignorant and biased and hold irrational beliefs the world over. Perhaps you could explain to me why you think the almighty US of A is atypical in this regard? racism is a problem in all societies.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Raisin, you're heart is in the right place, but your idealism is pure played-out, misguided, misinformed old hippie movement crap from the 60's. Get with the new millennium already.

haha, fuck off old man. its not my fault your reading comprehension is so bad that you go on a rant about all kinds of things that i never said or think. i am merely drawing a comparison between legislative equality concerning sexism and racism, and that such legislation is not the silver bullet for discrimination, at least not yet.

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm not denying there are no socio-economic factors influencing the the lower economic standards of blacks. But, it also takes the motivation to pull oneself out of economic hardship that can bring about positive change.

Considering the extra amount of stress and other psychological factors that black americans have to deal with in comparison to other people in american society, I think it's safe to say that the situation necessitates more than just 'motivation'. There is enough evidence to suggest that those few black americans that successfully move from great levels of poverty to 'middle class' or 'upper class' life, including athletes, were lucky enough to grow up with crucial factors that facilitate their development into successful individuals. If you are truly interested I can elaborate further, but for that I would have to break open a couple of books I haven't touched in a while. Suffice to say, motivation alone will not get most black americans out of poverty, there needs to be certain supports provided by government and society as a whole (and no I don't mean the current money giving system).

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