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The limits of imagination

On another board, I made the remark that imagination (as far as constructing scenes out of a few words in a novel) is very limited, and that this is one reason why books are generally not that good at portraying action effectively. Someone there took issue with my remark, saying that the whole point of imagination was to "break free of limitation." Here's my response to him:

Imagination is extremely limited.

Try imagining a simple scene -- say, a businessman boarding a subway with a crowd of people on it. Then start asking yourself specific questions about what the businessman looks like, what the other people look like, their clothes and facial expressions, what the subway looks like, what each person on the subway is doing. Now ask yourself what sounds you hear, which people are talking and which are silent, the sounds made by the subway car itself, the sounds of the subway doors as they open.

If you're like most people, when I said, "imagine a businessman boarding a subway," you didn't really have much of all that in your head at all until I started asking questions; rather, you had a few words plus a very vague, hazy image that's quite difficult to really flesh out and hold in your mind without some very strenuous imaginative work. A film, on the other hand, provides all of that detail in a few seconds.

Now, having answered all those questions about your imagined scene, try to hold it all in your head at once and really "see" and "hear" everything as you described it to yourself based on those questions.

Tough, isn't it?

-----

Any thoughts?

Re: The limits of imagination

I agree, that's why I don't read books anymore

the difference between good books and bad books maybe...

Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Tough, isn't it?

No.

Re: Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie No.

Then you apparently have a much better imagination than most, since people are notoriously bad at describing the physical details of what they are "imagining" if interviewed on the spot by a psychologist or neurologist.

Yeah, I've always had a good imagination.

Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles If you're like most people, when I said, "imagine a businessman boarding a subway," you didn't really have much of all that in your head at all until I started asking questions;

Guess I'm not like most people. As soon as I read that, I imagined a pretty detailed scene involving all of the things you mentioned above - the color of the suit, the bystanders, the sounds, the color of the subway, the color and architecture of the walls, newspapers flying by, even a couple of hoboes sleeping on a bench.

I actually had a similar conversation with someone a while ago, and she didn't seem to understand how as soon as I'm told something or I read something somewhere, I instantly and instinctively imagine a scene in my head, and I can't not do it. It's just fundamental to the way I think and understand things.

Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Imagination is extremely limited. Try imagining a simple scene -- say, a businessman boarding a subway with a crowd of people on it. Then start asking yourself specific questions about what the businessman looks like, what the other people look like, their clothes and facial expressions, what the subway looks like, what each person on the subway is doing. Now ask yourself what sounds you hear, which people are talking and which are silent, the sounds made by the subway car itself, the sounds of the subway doors as they open.

I didn't find that difficult at all. Allthough, think about all the clich�s you get out of that sentence.

Since it isn't that describing, I'd find it more interesting to hear what kind of image people got and you'll probably find that most people got the exakt same picture in their head.

I think maybe that the problem is not that imagination is limited, rather that people have become lazy with their imaginations because we now have films/movies that do all of the work for us...

I have vivid imagination and I often think of all those things, I could draw a amazing painting or make a movie about it IF I had the necessary skills. But even if I don't have all the details it doesn't matter for me when reading a book. If some parts of the environment is a bit hazy I just think of it as something in my peripheral view and whenever I wanted I could focus on it and it would become clear.

Re: Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by Project-K Guess I'm not like most people. As soon as I read that, I imagined a pretty detailed scene involving all of the things you mentioned above - the color of the suit, the bystanders, the sounds, the color of the subway, the color and architecture of the walls, newspapers flying by, even a couple of hoboes sleeping on a bench.

woah so did i.. what was the color of the suit in ur picture?

dark grey in mine...


it also helped i was just riding the metro this morning

Re: Re: Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by thesauce23 woah so did i.. what was the color of the suit in ur picture?

dark blue, white dress shirt, matching tie. Something like this;

Omg I thought that was Adam Levine...SWOOOOOOOOOOOON.

Re: Re: Re: Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by Project-K dark blue, white dress shirt, matching tie. Something like this;

no way. i had dark blue suit with briefcase in the left hand. thats fucked.

i think my imagination is sometimes a bit too active and vivid.

it's fun in some cases, but it can also drive me absolutely crazy at times.

what if you imagine something and then write it down like say.... authors of fictional books.... their crazy elaborate stories are products of their imagination

and also, the human mind can only give focus to so many things at once, whether these things are inputs from your imagination or from your real senses .... you would have just as much trouble recalling the details of a real scene/situation versus one that was imagined



^^^ how many times do you watch a movie over again and catch something you missed the first time, or go somewhere often but only after many visits see something you never noticed before

Imagination, recollection, and similar cognitive processes where the image being "perceived" is entirely internal generally use a high degree of abstraction. This is not a bad thing at all; it keeps the cognitive load relately low and allows us to focus on the relatively few important details rather than getting caught up in the innumerable minutiae.

I tend to think, however, that imagination is not so much limited in that regard as it is underdeveloped. There are few situations where it would be advantageous to override that abstraction and actually created an extremely detailed "imagining," and as a consequence most people rarely, if ever, seek to do so. It should come as no surprise, then, that it does not come naturally to those people.

Imagination is a semi-conscious process.
Our subconscious uses symbolism to communicate but as we're awake, we don't get that much detail from it.
If you were to be hypnotized and THEN told to imagine a businessman boarding a subway, I bet it would be MUCH more detailed.

An interesting note: some people (I forget the technical term for it) can remember every minute detail about a memory.

quote:

Originally posted by kadomony An interesting note: some people (I forget the technical term for it) can remember every minute detail about a memory.

Eidetic memory.

Are you kidding? books paint such a vivid image that you can see, feel and sense every aspect of it. At least thats what good writers do...

Now i have not encountered a great writer in my time.. but reading books from great novelist from back in the day is like watching a movie x100000

quote:

Originally posted by nchs09 Are you kidding? books paint such a vivid image that you can see, feel and sense every aspect of it. At least thats what good writers do... Now i have not encountered a great writer in my time.. but reading books from great novelist from back in the day is like watching a movie x100000

Good point.

And if you want crazy detail, go read James Joyce's Ulysses.

Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Any thoughts?

The point of a good piece of writing is that the key points will be emphasized, and the other details you can let your own imagination make up. If a businessman is boarding a train, often it's not important what the rest of the carriage are doing.

Re: The limits of imagination

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Now, having answered all those questions about your imagined scene, try to hold it all in your head at once and really "see" and "hear" everything as you described it to yourself based on those questions. Tough, isn't it? ----- Any thoughts?

wow, others must have boring lives if they can't imagine stuff like this


it's a bad question though. if you ask 'imagine a businessman entering a subway', then you're limiting the rest of the 'scene'. you should rather ask. "imagine a subway scene".

EDIT - oops, that's what ^HE^ said.


if I knew that you were testing to see how vivid my imagination was, I am sure I would readily extrapolate and expand the ideas beyond the man, but if you just say that you are not really stimulating the subject enough.


all of the detail in movies and what not doesn't come from a single thought alone - it is often developed as part of a relatively long collaborative process.

EDIT - lol i just read your 'collaborative fiction' thread



now read gabriel garcia marquez or umberto eco and you will bear witness to the testament of truly imaginative minds

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