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-- Is this cheating?
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Posted by Jono404 on Feb-29-2008 05:17:

Is this cheating?

So I was talking to a mate who's a DnB DJ, and I mentioned that I label the bpm of all my tracks, then work out a rough estimate (0.7% = 1bpm) and fine tune from there. He claims this is cheating, isn't DJing etc, though he's also the type who thinks CD decks 'isn't proper djing' and all that.

Does anyone else do this?


Posted by stan229 on Feb-29-2008 05:22:

no, there are no rules for djing.. do what you want to do as long as the sound coming out is good


Posted by Jono404 on Feb-29-2008 05:39:

Yeah that's exactly what I said, just a different technique, and that it would still 'be DJing' if it was a guy with 2 tape players playing track after track in front of an audience.


Posted by shaw on Feb-29-2008 05:57:

I thought bpm & key labels were pretty much standard.


Posted by NeedFlower00 on Feb-29-2008 08:07:

no..


Posted by Mr Kre8 on Feb-29-2008 12:46:

Not standard just a matter of preference. If I wasn't so lazy/had a prog to do it for me, then I'd do it.


Posted by Stu Cox on Feb-29-2008 13:05:

Playing records is DJing. Anything over and above that - do whatever the fuck you like.


Posted by Zoso on Feb-29-2008 14:18:

How about this thought: I don't have ALL my records individually labeled. Some of the sleeves, however, list the BPM. After a time, you come to learn what the general BPM of ALL your tracks are as a result of mixing them with the labeled tracks. So, in effect, you end up with all your tracks "labeled," even if only mentally. Once this happens, your brain will automatically know how much you need to adjust the pitch from the get go to be in the general range. (Is that cheating, too? I think not.) And, even when this is the case, you still have to spend some time fine tuning your pitch to make sure it's as perfect as possible. And beatmatching is just the beginning anyway. If your EQing, phrasing, programming, etc. are not fine tuned, then your l337 beatmatching skills are simply that - the ability to match the beat of two tracks.

So, after all that brouhaha, I'd say it is definitely NOT "cheating". Give it hell, I say!


Posted by nerdgrl416 on Feb-29-2008 16:19:

quote:
Originally posted by Zoso
So, in effect, you end up with all your tracks "labeled," even if only mentally. Once this happens, your brain will automatically know how much you need to adjust the pitch from the get go to be in the general range. (Is that cheating, too? I think not.)


very well put. bravo!


Posted by Jarvmeister on Feb-29-2008 17:42:

If my friend said that I'd no longer be friends with him.


Posted by elFreak on Feb-29-2008 19:23:

Cheating is playing a pre made set. Other than that , there is nothing wrong with simplifying certain things in order to provide the most complete audio experience for your audience. While i do not do this for all my tracks, sometimes i edit bpms if i know i will perform a mashup at some point in the evening. Its not that you cant do it as it, just that if it sounds better the job is done. Prority number one is happy dancers, not people who have trouble playing great out that think you should share the same struggles as them.


Posted by Jarvmeister on Feb-29-2008 21:07:

quote:
Originally posted by elFreak
Cheating is playing a pre made set. Other than that , there is nothing wrong with simplifying certain things in order to provide the most complete audio experience for your audience. While i do not do this for all my tracks, sometimes i edit bpms if i know i will perform a mashup at some point in the evening. Its not that you cant do it as it, just that if it sounds better the job is done. Prority number one is happy dancers, not people who have trouble playing great out that think you should share the same struggles as them.


Awesome post.


Posted by nefardec on Feb-29-2008 23:46:

fuck no

i spend a vast amount of time keying/bpming my tracks and preparing for gigs. vinyl just doesn't make sense all the time (as much as i love it) and if you've used cdjs at least once you will notice that certain numbers and differences in pitch % keep popping up...


Posted by Clovis on Mar-01-2008 00:11:

quote:
Originally posted by Jarvmeister
Awesome post.



+10


Posted by Stasis on Mar-01-2008 11:45:

quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
...if you've used cdjs at least once you will notice that certain numbers and differences in pitch % keep popping up...


Definitely agree with previous posters. Even if you don't literally write out and calculate BPM on records/CDs, I think it's just natural to start doing mental math when beat matching tracks after a few weeks/months/years of practice.


Posted by RichOK on Mar-01-2008 13:03:

It's not cheating, as long as you are using it to mix cleaner mixes, or do things that you wouldn't be able to do if you had to had to "guess" the BPM off the cuff, like improv mashups, or dropping acapellas and the like.

short of playing a pre-recorded set , whatever you do (BPM, Key) to produce a better/cleaner/fuller sounds or mixes, it's fair game.


Posted by DJ Manuel C on Mar-01-2008 15:09:

One thing that I still cant seem to understand is why everything is becoming so political with this scene?? I actually wrote to judge jules one day regarding this issue. I asked him if it was "cheating" to pre-program a set...in other words, have your tracks sorted out in a particular layout. He mentioned that usually in big events, this is what DJ's do. Its more intimate when they are at venues (play it more by ear and by crowd reaction), however when they want to make a musical statement @ an event, usually their tracks are sorted out. I dont see what the problem is with labeling your tracks with certain traits that enable your mixing (i.e BPM's). The only thing I see fucced up is when I heard Tiesto pre-recorded all his tracks for a set with the same bpm. No beat matching necessary throughout the whole set...wow what a champion! lol any way just do what ever makes you comfortable and what sounds good!


Posted by Stu Cox on Mar-01-2008 16:03:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ Manuel C
The only thing I see fucced up is when I heard Tiesto pre-recorded all his tracks for a set with the same bpm. No beat matching necessary throughout the whole set...wow what a champion!

Well, if he feels he needs to and it sounds better...

But you would have thought he wouldn't need to so he could spend his time doing more constructive things!


Posted by elFreak on Mar-01-2008 16:29:

a set at a constant bpm never works for long sets. Tempo shifts are important....i really hate Tiesto


Posted by DJ Z on Mar-01-2008 23:46:

i dont really understand what the big deal is about converting bpms to % changes.

you start the next track & if it's a different tempo you just push the slider until it matches...

even if u are one of the types to calculate that you will need a 1.2% change to be matched (for example), you sill havent even started beatmatching yet!


i like to at least know what bpm to expect next so i dont slap down a 140 track against the 130 track that is playing - if i have to i will, but not desired.


Posted by ezbeats on Mar-02-2008 01:21:

that guy is romanticizing 'djing', let him do it how he want, u do it how you want. and honestly, if you using vinyl, its in your best interest as after i believe its like 5%ish of a bpm change the actual key signature changes, so even if you think these songs are perfect together technically (though all this is artistic and to each their own) the song will sound 'sour'. keying/bpming your records are VITAL to reach the next step IMO. but thats just me, and given enough years i think most people believe the same.

on a side note; thats a perk of using cdj's as when you alter the speed you dont affect the pitch (key signature) of a song like you do with actual records and turntables. so thats my 2 cents-


Posted by DJ Z on Mar-02-2008 01:28:

quote:
Originally posted by ezbeats
that guy is romanticizing 'djing', let him do it how he want, u do it how you want. and honestly, if you using vinyl, its in your best interest as after i believe its like 5%ish of a bpm change the actual key signature changes, so even if you think these songs are perfect together technically (though all this is artistic and to each their own) the song will sound 'sour'. keying/bpming your records are VITAL to reach the next step IMO. but thats just me, and given enough years i think most people believe the same.

on a side note; thats a perk of using cdj's as when you alter the speed you dont affect the pitch (key signature) of a song like you do with actual records and turntables. so thats my 2 cents-


im definitely with you on the keying..that is a big step! oh hell i'm gonna just go buy an 800


Posted by the_gamemaster on Mar-03-2008 12:04:

You can get vinyl tt's with key lock you know.

Its way more hassle to mess about labelling your records with bpm and then working out how much to alter the pitch by than just matching them by ear imo.


Posted by Stu Cox on Mar-03-2008 12:10:

quote:
Originally posted by the_gamemaster
You can get vinyl tt's with key lock you know.

Yep, but like all key lock functions it sounds gash outside about +/-2%, within which you don't really need it anyway!


Posted by Nemesis44 on Mar-04-2008 16:40:

quote:
Originally posted by Stu Cox
Yep, but like all key lock functions it sounds gash !


LOL - That is so south coast DJ it's unreal he he. (Don't worry not poking fun, use the word myself from time to time).


To original poster.
You are probably making life a bit harder than it need be by doing this, better to work a bit more on your matching as in time you will probably find you don't need to do this.

But is it wrong?
Not at all. Don't know why but when I speak to DJs the majority of negative stories tend to focus around DnB DJs... weird.

Ultimately if your set sounded better than his because you had better music because of CDs (Wider range of tunes) and mixing was tighter, who do you think that dance floor is going to remember?

Cheers
Nem


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