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keying records
First: i used the search button. even though i know this topic has been talked about significantly here, i did not find any help through the previous threads.
how do you all key your records? im looking for osmething quick because ive got a lot of records to key, and i dont just key one mix, but every mix on every record. i used to have quite a bunch of them keyed but my harddrive crashed and i lost the printout, and only some ofthe records had the information actually written on th record. so ive got a lot of songs to key.
the way i used to do it was to record the track to my computer and used a program like mixmeister or something like that i cant remember to 'auto detect' the key of the song. i know the 'auto detect' method was never 100% but it definetly as reliable as my human error would probably be, and much faster.
by doing this method couldnt i just record the first minute of a song or whatnot and key it off that without having to record the whole song, as this would cut down the time significantly (i dont see any reason why it would matter to just do a good portion of it opposed to the whole thing but this forum is here for a reason, eh!?)
what programs do you all use to detect the key signature? is there any hardware out there that will 'key' a record live like 'auto bpm counting' features? im not looking for a whole mixer with this functionality, more some type of hardware i can put between my music input/output lines and do it that way live and i could just mix songs naturally and peek at the little gadget and have a good call of the key. but really im curious as to how you all do it? im not too keen on the pulling a keyboard out and crunching the chords out and all that, thats too much time/concentration for the amount of records im wanting to do. thanks-
Re: keying records
| quote: |
| Originally posted by ezbeats how do you all key your records? |
i dont do it solely on keyed structure, but when i want to mix a track and the intro pretty much starts with a bassline all over, and the actual transition point im going to use is say.... 60 counts in, and i want to use the percusion part of the intro then the basslines will overlap and if they are bad keys for one another it sounds bad IMO. and i know, i can and do just use the eq's to try to mute the bass from the one that doesnt match it until the transition point im hitting it on is ready but really.... listen to a mix with solid key structure when that next track hits and the bassline explodes of the next track in that perfect note/key to match the outgoing track, its a whole lot more energy than many people give/dont give credit for. but thats just me....
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aroun 70% accuracy. very useful tool when mixing.
your overdoing it, diffrent records are going to sound diffrently as far as audio quality and key. That is the purpose in developeing a record collection.
old examples
a nukleuz record is not gonna be the same as a lost language record.
however the more records that you buy the better the mix will be because you are not forceing records together.
just get a BPM count the BPMs on your records file them away, find a record that you like that you want to start your set with and build from there. when djing with cds or vinyl for instance you dont wanna manipulate the pitch too much.
like that project medusa vs exor record - old example but a very badass way to start a dj mix if your into that style of trance. it is probably 137BPM I could not tell you to speed it up or slow it down for some reason depends on the turntable. too me if I could find records that sound good at negative 35 then I would have an entire mix like that.
IMPORTANT PART
when I make a dj set I use ableton so I am importing various styles together and listening as I go to the transitions to find out what is the smoothest.
vinyl shoppers
hopefully when your buying vinyl you get to preview them first, meaning you can sit there and listen to the record in snippets to find out if it is good or not. most of the vocal stuff I play now I would never buy because it sounds kind of fruity. now if you have a record collection and you are wondering what record to play next trial and error. I'm sure a mix master can make a set on thin air and mix anything will it have a flow probably not, will it mix if done correctly. so practice and listen and see what sounds good.
certain labels go for certain styles for example a old school vandit track or PVD remix had that harder club style. then they started releaseing records like Casino wich had a grunger stoneface and terminal type sound. probably would not mix right or at all.
Here is another extract from a guide that I am writing and at this rate I am going to post the whole thing all over the place...
Also, don't buy into the 'just pick tracks' theory. Do what you would like to do!
If you need any help send me a PM and I can go into further detail on your specific questions. 
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Harmonic mixing
Do I really need to do this? Well it depends on if you are comfortable with the idea that people who are not tone deaf thinking that your mixes sounds like arse from time to time.
This is actually one of the more debated subjects on Internet DJ forums. Just so you know, I approach this from the point of view that I am a Harmonic Mixer. I am a music producer too and this does have an effect on how I mix and hear things.
The more common anti HM arguments range from lines such as �I don�t want to DJ by numbers� or �I don�t want to restrict my mixing by being forced to play a track in a certain key�.
For many this may be a sound logic as there is a deep belief that there are many DJs that will play the right song for the right moment. I wont argue that point too heavily but you would have to ask yourself what factors make it the right song for the right moment?
There is also a belief amongst a few that they do HM without having to do the research as they have �Perfect Pitch�. Firstly perfect pitch is a very rare condition indeed and a lot of people who truly have this actually appear to have trouble perceiving or hearing harmonies as they will inevitably hear the root note. What people may be referring to in these instances is actually tone recognition are at least the ability to hear when two tones are not compatible, which is a far more common skill especially amongst musicians, but increasingly in DJs too.
Harmonic Mixing can be referred to as DJing by numbers if you keep in mind that writing music is composing by numbers. Music is very mathematical and is by no means a random act of creation. In a similar way it would be reasonable to suggest that the same rules can be applied when mixing this music that is mathematical. The same reason you may decide to put to harmonious notes together in a song should in theory be the same reason why you might decide to mix that way i.e. it sounds good!
For the ones who state that they feel restricted by this, one would have to argue that this could be more a case of burying your head in the sand and hoping that it will go away. How can having all the different keys presented to you be considered restrictive? You will know what works in terms of key and what doesn�t, you will be able to perform the placement of vocals and live mashups with more pleasing results a lot quicker than if you have to keep working out what sounds right and what doesn�t by testing it. Or worse still, not being aware of the fact that what you are doing actually sounds pretty terrible.
I would also be prepared to state that a Harmonic Mixer will have a better connection with the music on the whole as he/she actually understands what is going on. Not to mention the fact that, if you are musically minded you may find it a lot easier to beat match as you are not fighting key clashes which some people can find quite distracting.
There are plenty of ways to do this and there are some discussions as to what the correct ways of doing it are. A simple rule of thumb as with all DJing is that if it sounds good then it�s right. As long as you keep in mind that I am not giving you the holy grail of mixing that will make you a DJ god, but rather a tool that will make you a better DJ.
So �Where do I begin?� I hear you say.
Contrary to popular belief, HM does not require masses of musical knowledge and years of experience as a musician, but neither can hurt.
You could go to a website that has done all of the donkey work for you and just find the keys to your tracks that way, but I would be of the opinion that you are cheating yourself if you do that and will not be fully appreciative of what you are getting in to.
What you need first of all is a keyboard or guitar, or something with western musical notation, assuming that you are not playing extremely ethnic music that uses micro tonality.
The instrument that you choose can be low budget, you don�t need anything that is flashy or over the top.
A DJ deck of some sort that is pitched to zero and music that is from the original source i.e. is played back at the speed it was recorded. This is where MP3s can become slightly tricky especially if it has been ripped out of a mix that may have changed the speed of the track. Depending on how much it was pitched it may create problems keying the track.
�Ok, so I am ready to key a track�!
Let�s pick a track. If you have it I would like you to listen to �Saltwater � The Legacy�. I have chosen this track as it has a nice clear intro that is quite easy to key.
What I would like you to do is to get your instrument of choice and wait for the bass line to come in after the drum intro. Once the bass line actually starts I would like you to start playing each note on your guitar or keyboard until you find one that seems to fit with everything that is going on. If you have found the C note (might be worth finding some explanations on the web) on your instrument you have found the root note of the track.
Usually the root note will sound good with all other chord changes and melodic instances that take place in the track because all of the music is built around the root.
In order for you to go to the next step you will need to make yourself familiar or at least have some documentation to follow with regards to the Major and Minor chords. You will need to know 12 of each, which might sound a little daunting but actually is fairly simple.
In this particular instance you would need to play both the C Major and Minor chords to decide which key the track is in. For this step I would recommend play when some more melodic elements have started to come in, as playing over the bass line alone can give some incorrect results as it may be the same root note repeated and this can sound fine with both Major and Minor chords which would be wrong.
Saltwater � The Legacy has a key of C Minor.
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I know it's a lot to read but go through the keyed tunes for harmonic mixers, between the odd arguement about the virtues of HM it does tell you how to key a track.
Cheers
Nem
Hi,
A large number of professional DJs use Mixed In Key software for Mac and Windows. Our official website is http://www.mixedinkey.com
Deep Dish, Pete Tong from BBC Radio 1, John Digweed, Blank & Jones, and 4 Strings are among the fans.
You may find the MIK Community useful as well. Check this forum for harmonic mixing ideas: http://community.mixedinkey.com There are lots of people who can answer your questions and help with anything related to this technique.
Yep, there is software, but it is my personal opinion that it is a false economy as keying software still produces questionable results at times and as a result the human ear is still more accurate.
The other thing that software can not achieve is the way in which you start to get a more intimate knowledge of your music as you will often find yourself playing along to the tracks, improvising. The whole experience is far more connected to the original artist and the appreciation you get is on a different level.
You acquire a new skill (if you don�t already play an instrument) and may even start to open doors to other things such as music production.
Whilst I recognise the efforts that mixed in key etc. put into this type of software I find it hard to recommend as it is depriving people of learning opportunities and a chance to get a deeper appreciation of what they are doing.
On this point I may not have the agreement of everyone on this forum but it is my opinion. It is by far, the better option to learn to key your tracks by ear.
As for the forums, rock on!, there are people there who know the score.
Cheers
Nem
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| It is by far, the better option to learn to key your tracks by ear. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by nennon Hey Nem, I think that any method that encourages DJs to learn more about music is valuable. I used to key all my records by ear and it worked great. But eventually, keying music became a repetitive task because I already knew how to do it. Software made it faster and easier. Software is a good tool to help DJs learn. After that, it's up to the DJ to learn more about music and go from there... |
Re: Re: keying records
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| Originally posted by DiscoStew I don't. You should choose tracks based on what you think sounds together, not based on what some computer program thinks is good, IMO. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by nennon Hey Nem, I think that any method that encourages DJs to learn more about music is valuable. I used to key all my records by ear and it worked great. But eventually, keying music became a repetitive task because I already knew how to do it. Software made it faster and easier. Software is a good tool to help DJs learn. After that, it's up to the DJ to learn more about music and go from there... |
Re: Re: Re: keying records
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| Originally posted by hooj1 +100,000,000,000 there are different styles of theory and scales that are not listed or mentioned in convectional western music schools of thought. if you have a trained ear just go by that....if your tone def let the computer do it or better yet DO NOT DJ. |
Re: Re: keying records
| quote: |
| Originally posted by DiscoStew I don't. You should choose tracks based on what you think sounds together, not based on what some computer program thinks is good, IMO. |
Just out of curiosity... how long have DJ's been using mixing by key? I imagine its a fairly new concept... I remember everyone RAVING about how Armin did it in like.. 2003 or 2004. Because listening to stuff rom like 1996-1998... I don't think thats harmonically mixed and it sounds just fine to me.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by SteelWolf Just out of curiosity... how long have DJ's been using mixing by key? I imagine its a fairly new concept... I remember everyone RAVING about how Armin did it in like.. 2003 or 2004. Because listening to stuff rom like 1996-1998... I don't think thats harmonically mixed and it sounds just fine to me. |
DJs have been aware of this for a long time, although it�s not until more recent years that it�s been shared. I was doing it long before I actually new the concept or name of what I was engaged in.
Back in the day, if you had a record that you were trying to mix that just sounded rough you would take it off the deck and whack another on. You may have seen many DJs do this in the past.
Eventually you pick it up so that you know what will sound good but the more structured approach is relatively new as the internet has made sharing information much easier. Camelot deserve a large amount of credit for creating the easy mix system, but that was based on knowledge that was already out there from the DJs of the time.
I have in the past heard people say �I�m not going to mix that, it just sounds wrong� and by that they were actually talking about compatible musical tonality.
Having listened to a lot of my old mixes pre 2000 and as early as 1992 I found that I was favouring harmonically pleasing mixes instinctively.
Although I am not classically trained I have played musical instruments since about the age of 15 and messed around with �Trackers� since they came out on the Amiga so did have a basic understanding of why things worked or didn�t. You will often find that many DJs have some element of music in their past be it trained or not and the ability to hear tone is there for many of them. Armin being no exception, although I don�t know when exactly he starting marking up his records with key etc. he will most definitely have been aware of this.
In other words, DJs have been doing this for a long time even if it was by accident, but they would all have worked out something that sounds particularly pleasing when mixed together and may even have thought, that�s how I want to sound the whole time.
As Stu Cox stated it�s not something that you must do, consider it a weapon in your arsenal of things that you can do as a working DJ. And if it helps create energy or emotion and ultimately pleasure from your listening audience how can this be a bad thing?
If something sounds good though, there will be a musical explanation as to why, whether or not it was based on musical knowledge or just instinct is beside the point. What understanding HM will do is essentially take the guess work out of the process and can also present you with other options that you may not have considered previously.
For a lot of DJs you will find that it tends to help them break away from those safe mixes that they know sound good and might repeat too often, as they can see that they have more options available to them and will understand why the original idea worked so well but now have a load more options.
I will pretty much mix harmonically all the time, but that doesn�t mean that I use strictly the Camelot approach. Having developed an understanding of chords and scales has helped a lot and has widened the options greatly. A good example of this is to break down a guitar chord. You will find things in there that work other than just the 4th and 5th, that still sits in the same scale but might not have been an obvious choice to start with.
I�m also for the most part thinking at least a couple of tracks ahead when I play and have ways of jumping around keys and getting to where I want to be if I feel that there is something that has to be played.
It also doesn�t have to be strictly about flow and matching keys, it can be about picking deliberately unmatched keys that give that subtle or not so subtle lift to a set (so called Modulation mix) where you do a quick swap of EQ or fader and just send the dance floor into orbit.
It can also open up options to start mixing records in totally new places and bringing in melodies on top of an existing track that just would not have worked otherwise.
I have always thought it quite strange that given we are mixing music, how can someone not think that musical techniques don�t apply? On that note though I know we all have our own different ways of approaching this, and some may want more knowledge than others.
With regards to software, I have never used key detection applications. Never had the need and as pckRaistlin said, it�s probably quicker to do it by ear anyway. I personally don�t trust it and see no real need for it. Once you develop speed at doing this then it�s pretty much like second nature and is far more reliable for me to do. Some people like this method though so each to his/her own.
And as Stu says, some people can 'just do it'.
Cheers
Nem
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Stu Cox Some DJs have got a natural ear for it, which could well be one of the things that set the now-big-names apart from other DJs around at the time. Dave King (djdk on here) is one of these lucky sods - he doesn't key his tunes, but whenever I've had a mix with him he's managed to pick tracks that are in matching keys just about every time. |
^ Ah I see... I was never into the whole harmonic thing, but I understand what you mean. I have often yanked a record after it sounded funky in the cue. I guess we all can at least determine what sounds clashy eh? Hmm 10 years into mixing maybe its time I start to tinker a whee bit eh?
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| I have all of my tunes keyed up, but when I'm picking a track to play I don't think "right, what's in a matching key?" - I find a track I think would work next (without even looking at the keys), and THEN I look at the key. Half of the time I'll play it anyway even if it's not in a matching key, but the fact that I know it's not going to match means I know to avoid clashing so I'll do quite a sharp mix, a late mix, or I'll EQing it heavily. Of course the best thing is that if I know the tunes ARE in matching keys, I can really take advantage of working the two together. Basically my point is that keying your records can simply be an extra bit of information to help you decide the best way to mix two tracks together - it doesn't have to have any bearing on your tracklist. |
Re: Re: Re: keying records
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Stu Cox Half of the time I'll play it anyway even if it's not in a matching key, but the fact that I know it's not going to match means I know to avoid clashing so I'll do quite a sharp mix, a late mix, or I'll EQing it heavily. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by SteelWolf Just out of curiosity... how long have DJ's been using mixing by key? I imagine its a fairly new concept... I remember everyone RAVING about how Armin did it in like.. 2003 or 2004. Because listening to stuff rom like 1996-1998... I don't think thats harmonically mixed and it sounds just fine to me. |
I've just noticed that in Nem's guide above he talks about using Saltwater - The Legacy... funnily enough, that was actually the first tune I ever keyed up and tried harmonic mixing with!
I wonder if you used it as an example at some point before on TA and that was what inspired me to try it?
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