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-- Decline of the value of the DJ?
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Decline of the value of the DJ?
This is a slightly depressing topic, but it's something that came out of a discussion on another messageboard so I thought I'd throw it your way.
Basically, we started off discussing whether DJs should play for free. Obviously all DJs would prefer to get paid, but sometimes either promoters don't offer a fee (bastards), or DJs offer their services for free to make it more likely that they'll get the booking.
For full-time DJs who have been on the circuit for a while, however, this is an even greater concern because they're losing work through up-and-coming DJs undercutting their prices. The idea of a "union" for DJs was even mentioned, with the idea of a minimum wage for working DJs, to ensure fairness for all, but obviously getting club nights to agree would be nigh on impossible.
This then brought around the discussion of whether full-time DJs should necessarily expect to continue to get paid the same wage as they have in the past. With any other product or service, the more choice the customer has and the similar these choices are, the lower prices become. Likewise, it could be argued that with the "every man and his dog is a DJ" culture, just the fact that promoters have the choice between so many DJs who can perform the same function brings down the value of every DJ... obviously this is heavily influenced by the fact that the industry is flooded with amateurs and semi-professionals - quite a rare (but admittedly not unique) feature of this industry.
As an example from my personal observation/view/opinion, there are so many house DJs around (particularly in London, that being the scene about which I know the most) at the moment who are so difficult to tell apart in terms of musical style, mixing technique, image and "branding" that it would certainly support this suggestion.
It wouldn't then be unreasonable to bring in the issue of promoters expecting DJs to bring X number of mates to their gigs in order to secure a booking - something that's becoming more and more common here in the UK (again, particularly London). If you did decide that DJs are now worth a lot less than they once were, is it then unreasonable for promoters to try and increase their value by using them as a direct promotion and ticket-selling tool?
I personally hate the idea of a DJ being expected to be anything other than a DJ, but at the same time when compared with the economics of other "products" it does seem to be inevitable... so I'm undecided but I want to see what other people here think.
Discuss...
Around here it is a common belief that if you aren't willing to work your ass off promoting a show then you probably won't get booked to DJ for that show.
If a promoter's going to assume all the risk on spending their own money for a show that may tank 100%, then why should a local DJ be paid just to DJ when they put zero effort into getting people there? This is what very few up and coming locals realize, it's not just "hey, my name is on the lineup so people will come". It doesn't work that way.
We operate by setting aside 25% of the profit of our show to the opening DJ's as incentive for them to get people there. If we make money, the opener's make money. But if we take a loss, no one gets paid. It's just the way we've found that works best for our shows, and we have a lot of good DJ's willing to open for us. We don't have a scene as strong as LA or Miami in Dallas, it takes a lot of effort to promote a show and get the heads to turn out. Most people here realize that.
On the flip side, there are local DJ's that have worked themselves in the market that from a local perspective they can draw a lot of people for a show and warrant an up front flat booking fee. But what most people don't realize, they WORK to get themselves into that position. Something to think about.
Yeah for me it really depends on who I'm getting booked for as to how much I'll get paid. If it's by an established club/promoter I'll get my fee- if its more of an amateur gig at a smaller club, the DJs will normally get paid on a sliding scale.
We have a lot of DJs around here, it takes a lot to get on the regular bookings train, it's always a bit of a fight it seems, even for the more experienced guys.
Lately I've been too busy with school to be as hardcore with promoting and being out and just been working on more underground events, loft parties and random shit like that. This summer should be good.
And if you really throw amazing parties here, you will get real $$. The guys who pack Stereo and Tribe get big cash.
There is money to be made, but you need to be on the hustle all the time , building the army.
over saturation in the dj department leads to lower wages. Simple supply and demand. Do it for fun and love, and if you can be in the black all the better for you. You want to make money find a following of peeps that buy by bottle. It won't matter if you suck or not.
I personally don't mind playing for free - a lot of this was a discussion instigated by DJs who have been professionally week in, week out for 10-15 years so have been consistently earning �200 per set and are now seriously struggling with everyone else playing for free.
The argument also comes from the angle of avoiding promoters taking advantage, rather than DJs just trying to get rich out of DJing - many people feel that if the promoter makes money out of the night, the DJs are entitled to get paid as well (there have been several high-profile cases in London of promoters making loads out a night and not paying any DJs, even reasonably big name guests).
In fact, many believe that even if the promoter isn't making a profit then the DJs should still expect to be paid if punters are charged on the door, as failure to break even suggests sloppy promotion/budgeting... if a night fails to break even, the venue still get paid so why should the DJs (as another expense of running an night) be treated any differently?
As I say, these are just common views I've come across in other discussions, not necessarily my own 
I played for a promotion recently who were getting the venue for free, didn't pay any DJs and told all of the DJs they had to bring a dozen or so mates or they wouldn't get to play. As you can imagine, a lot of people who found out about this got angry and accused the promoters of taking advantage of up and coming DJs.
But on the flipside, the promoters took about �300 on the door - who deserves that? The DJs, who have just turned up with some mates, played some tunes and got their name on posters all around the capital, or the promoters who put hours and hours into securing the venue, arranging the DJs, getting posters printed up, doing all of the street promo...?
"hey man, you're a great cook and all that but -- can you farm?"
a dj is only as great as his promotion skills
| quote: |
| Originally posted by elFreak a dj is only as great as his promotion skills |
the guy who puts asses on the dance floor and brings in covers/drink sales will always work more than the technical genius who can rock the fuck out of an empty club.
a set you listen to at home has no bearing on the economics of club land.
as allied nations said, if your getting booked at an established party/club, you get your flat fee + promo salary
but if your playing at a random gig, the promoter booked you not because your a good dj, but because youll bring in a crowd, or at least he thinks.
there are LOTS of djs in montreal who cant beatmatch for the life of them and are getting booked left right and centre and are expected to bring people.
i can say that i have sold out. i have been djing in clubs for the past 2 years and im not expected to bring people because it was my decision not to bring them since the begining. true, i play top 40 and cRAP, but hey i stick in my house music and by the end of the night, i get a pretty nice pay as a resident/established dj whos never expected to bring people.
yeah, dude, im playing this friday. you gotta come see me.
yeah, dude, im playing next saturday. you gotta come see me.
omg, man, i got this awesome gig next thursday, you gotta drop by.
...
those lines work the first few times. specially if you've been playing for a while, and every time one of your mates goes see you he has to put up with a nice cover price and those pesky inflated drink prices we have at clubs.
i tell promoters straight out i play what i want to play, trying to please the crowd of course, but staying in my style. i'll hand them demos to make sure they know what it is i play, so they're clear. i will only bend so far. i'll also normally tell them that yes, i will do promo for them (i work for the biggest edm website in my country) but i also demand free entry for normally a guest or two, just to assert myself.
i've also lately made it a policy to charge upfront, at least 50%. if the night DOES tank, he didn't do his job as a promoter, as i've seen clubs packed for nonames/up-and-commers because the promoter did his job. if i have a relationship with the promoter where i know he is honest and we have dealt in the past, i have no problem playing his night for free if there was something out of his control. but if he just sat on his ass for the weeks prior to the night, i'm taking my money.
Interesting thread to read, by someone who really doesn't know anything about this. One of my buddies asked everyone to come to a place he was going to be at, and let us know that he only gets $2 a head that he brings in. Only way he gets paid there. Is that common for them to pay you a small amount like that for each person you bring in?
since the popularity of cdj's has got bigger - allowing sites like beatport to grow, the non superstar dj has lost his edge. lots of young blood buying the beatport top ten can easily steal sets from people who have been able to earn money thanks to having a knack at hunting a tune in the record store. Now any kid can search a sasha tracklist and they know they can play every tune and sound like they have been doing it for as long as sasha has.
now, it is all about the music you make and the name you build for yourself from your productions. this has meant we are now not only flooded by copycat dj's, but also more copycat musicians than ever before. the flood is mostly made up of warez using kids with not enough musical experience to come up with their own sound. and more and more are polishing and tuning tracks to perfection when really they should be making stuff with a bit of soul. the whole situation is annoying and i cant wait till the hangers on lose interest and make room for the 0.05% of people with real passion for what they do.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by richg101 .......i cant wait till the hangers on lose interest and make room for the 0.05% of people with real passion for what they do. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by richg101 since the popularity of cdj's has got bigger - allowing sites like beatport to grow, the non superstar dj has lost his edge. lots of young blood buying the beatport top ten can easily steal sets from people who have been able to earn money thanks to having a knack at hunting a tune in the record store. Now any kid can search a sasha tracklist and they know they can play every tune and sound like they have been doing it for as long as sasha has. now, it is all about the music you make and the name you build for yourself from your productions. this has meant we are now not only flooded by copycat dj's, but also more copycat musicians than ever before. the flood is mostly made up of warez using kids with not enough musical experience to come up with their own sound. and more and more are polishing and tuning tracks to perfection when really they should be making stuff with a bit of soul. the whole situation is annoying and i cant wait till the hangers on lose interest and make room for the 0.05% of people with real passion for what they do. |
it's in dj Networx 35 cd 2 LALALA HARDSTYLE OWNS
"if you're not in it for the love of the music, would you please FUCK OFF"
LALALAL DJ NETWORX
^^ Would you please FUCK OFF!
Your annoying
Im no professional and never played at any club, but I have numerous friends that do. 2 are residents at 2 big clubs in Denver.
Numerous nights they were "forced" to play for free. Resident rules or whatnot. When they got paid, it was always a bit less than "estimated". Even at big venues, they never seen much dough. They bring in quite a crowd (our family and friends alone, around 20) each time. Its disappointing..
Its growing with too many underdeveloped monkies, capable of slamming tracks in. They get booked because they have some special cross breed of genre, that involves Rap/R&B and Trance/House. Eww..
I rarely go out anymore.. get disappointed spending $20 (usually $15 cover, $4 a beer. Thats right, just one), and seeing the same old crap. Sorry, but I cant support the Club over the DJ.
Regular business strategies and supply & demand rules can't really be applied logically to the DJ set up. Every DJ has a different level they are trying to reach.
I believe there is a big difference in expectation between a professional DJ trying to earn a living by playing out each weekend, and a hobbyist, who supports his musical/dj lifestyle with a real job. The issue is that technology and accessibility means the gap between these 2 types of DJ is now so much less than before.
As an irregular DJ, playing only for the love of the party & the music, I would never in a million years think that i was entitled to a pay check at the end of the set. On the other hand, the same space could be filled in the lineup by a semi-professional/professional DJ who would ask for a price.
I think its fair (without any name, or real intention to develop a professional career) that i simply ask the promoter for some travel expenses if the gig is far enough away that i can't get there myself.
That may irk professional DJs who could play the same party but collect a fee, but certainly, from a promoter point of view, if the same people turn up, regardless of which Dj they choose to book, isn't in their best interest to pick the guy for less cost / hassle.
It's probably a different situation around here, as in Slovakia, i don't think we even have a professional DJ on the EDM circuit. Maybe on the disco/commercial level, but certainly not for EDM. A couple of successful DJs combine promoting their own nights to make profit.
In that case, i don't see any harm from participating on an amateur level in the same scene. Especially when my expectation level is on of the hobbyist, rather than anything beyond my capacity.
im in los angeles CA, and every kid that gets a setup calls himself a dj, i know kids here that dont have any knowledge but the fact that they have a setup makes them think they're djs.
i have been djing for 2 years, and i even started learning to beatmatch before i got my equipment. i have almost no work now because there are newer guys charging close to nothing and taking all the buisness. i havent had a party in 2 months...
its horrible,
Swap places with one of your dj friends abroad. Switch round club nights with other DJs.
Find someone spinning a different night of the week from you and promote their sets then in turn have them promote your sets.
Get in touch with booze companies, smaller ones preferably, get them to send you out a few crates of booze in turn for you selling it and them paying for putting out flyers with your name on the banners andf the night you're doing. Then offer everyone a free drink of said booze on entry.
Get the girls down to the club and you are sorted. Know an army of hot tarts. 
Don't get ripped off. If you're at a well known club you should write up a contract beforehand. In some extremes, you can get yourself an agent. They will take some of your money but you'll get a lot more gigs.
Get a bunch of friends together who are DJs,
Get all your sound systems together,
Find an empty warehouse,
Invite everyone you know,
Party!
It sure is a growing epidemic,
now because of Ableton (I personally love the program, got myself a copy of live 7 for student price just recently 
)
People who have no idea about what a c major is and no idea about what a synthesiser is are calling them selves producers because they figured out how to overlay two tracks in a program that is a sequencer! 
| quote: |
| Originally posted by richg101 since the popularity of cdj's has got bigger - allowing sites like beatport to grow, the non superstar dj has lost his edge. lots of young blood buying the beatport top ten can easily steal sets from people who have been able to earn money thanks to having a knack at hunting a tune in the record store. Now any kid can search a sasha tracklist and they know they can play every tune and sound like they have been doing it for as long as sasha has. now, it is all about the music you make and the name you build for yourself from your productions. this has meant we are now not only flooded by copycat dj's, but also more copycat musicians than ever before. the flood is mostly made up of warez using kids with not enough musical experience to come up with their own sound. and more and more are polishing and tuning tracks to perfection when really they should be making stuff with a bit of soul. the whole situation is annoying and i cant wait till the hangers on lose interest and make room for the 0.05% of people with real passion for what they do. |
how much does a dj make at sensation white? thats the badest stage I have ever seen before.
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