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Layered bass...

Where can I find an example of an isolated, layered, uncompressed bass note or loop that I can listen to in the environment I produce in? I ask because my bass is sitting too low in mixes and it was recently suggested that I layer the bass and expand the frequency some. I'm taking tracks I know pretty well and trying to eq just down to the bass, but I'm afraid when I'm cutting certain frequencies to isolate the bass, I'm actually cutting frequencies from the bass... so it's not terribly helpful as a guide.

I'd just like to hear - in my monitoring environment - what a final version of a layered and processed bass could sound like (isolated from the rest of the mix)... I know there are various ways of doing this and one sample will not be the end all, but if anyone has a snippet or could direct me somewhere that I can grab a layered bass note/line as a starting point it'd be really helpful!

Thanks.

hey dude i understand your thought process on this but you need to be careful of soloing your sounds too often... you should be working with all the music going all the time... only solo stuff together when you hear crossed frequencies

It sounds to me like your over analising the situation mate. Just layer some more oscilators etc into your bass and thicken it up a little. Try some slightly different wavs layered together for texture and different octaves for depth and just make sure it sounds good. Theres no rules. You aint guina learn diddly from listening to a bass note playing. One tip i find if you've got quite a full track and have trouble making the bass stand out is just rout the whole bass track to a bus and run them both. You wnt need the 2nd bus up very load at all but it will bring the bass out more without having to turn it up to clipping point. Prolly good to low cut the sub off that 2nd one sumwhat too. But basically getting more bass is often as simple as turning it up a few db...

Both duly noted... the bass is just frustrating me. It sounds fine as I'm listening to it, but getting it right to sound good on other systems is a hassle. i know i could use some more room treatment.. but was just thinking a sample could give me a reference point. I'll just keep tweaking it... thanks for the input.

Maybe you allready know this but a good tip is to just put your track up beside similar tracks from artists you like in soundforge or similar app and play them and flick straight between yours and thiers. You will be able to judge your levals etc aginst pro stuff. Its very handy.

If it sounds good on your system, but you have a problem making it sound good on other systems, it might be an idea to upgrade your listening equipment.

quote:

Originally posted by Falck If it sounds good on your system, but you have a problem making it sound good on other systems, it might be an idea to upgrade your listening equipment.

I hear you - I think it's more a matter of room treatment more than the equipment though. I've done some treatment for reflections, which helped a great deal on the mids, but not much in the way of setting up traps or treatment for the low frequencies. That will likely be the next investment... The problem is the angles of the room. I think I've made some progress on latering it - I'll try and post a sample later.

i tend to make at least two basslines, one for the sub bass (the simple off note one for example) and a higher bass playing a more complex score... each eq'ed seperately and compressed seperately and then combined to a third track which is also eq'ed and compressed, and maybe sidechained to the kick... and on top of it all i put all of the basses (kick, bass1, bass2) into a single track compressing them even more... i find it easy to handle them when their togather, i tend to do this sort of treatment on all of my rhythm sections...

but i find it hard to belive you would wanna sound like someone else... do your own thing mate! maybe really low basses will make your tracks stand out more among others, who knows... anyway i think you should also listen alot to commercial cd's you like for a while and then go back to mixing... mixing or mastering for too long make your ears accept the current frequencies pressure and therefor youll make a muddy mix or a lacking of bass mix, etc.... you should take a break every once in a while, its really helpful...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray_Chappell I hear you - I think it's more a matter of room treatment more than the equipment though. I've done some treatment for reflections, which helped a great deal on the mids, but not much in the way of setting up traps or treatment for the low frequencies. That will likely be the next investment... The problem is the angles of the room. I think I've made some progress on latering it - I'll try and post a sample later.

Yes, I have had similar problems in my room, with bass traps and other unwanted stuff. A quick way to work around this (at least temporary) is to get a good pair of phones that will works as a reference. Without going into the battle of phones, I could warmly recommend AKG141 (preferably old, used ones). They have a character like "if it sounds good in them, it will probably sound fair on most systems". Therefore I find them very useful. I could send you an isolated bass line from one of our songs i you really want to, but I doubt that would help you out much as the bassline needs the rest of the tune to sound good.

Cheers

I personally don't recomend putting your basslines and kick together and compressing them all. I would think it would just squash sqush them all and make it sound flat.

quote:

Originally posted by theartfulducker I personally don't recomend putting your basslines and kick together and compressing them all. I would think it would just squash sqush them all and make it sound flat.

thats all comes down to settings... i find it very easy to put em all togather and set up the compressor right where i want it... a sound compressed is much more easy to handle and give away so much more room for other stuff then a not compressed sound...

Layered bass?

These guys will teach you everything you need to know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OezymoIxZM








(ps: I use sub-bass with a high bass from time to time)

I've been pretty consistently doing the same thing, and it's been working for me:
Put the synth through two preamp sends, silence the original. One send gets cut off around 200hz, run it through Waves RBass vst, and whatever else for taste. It's results are pretty thick.
The second send has everything above 200 or 300 to taste, put some flange on it for width, set it's level according to how much low end I want on that instrument.

I don't layer it, I separate it out and process them independently.
Works good for kicks too. But maybe that's already known stuff for you.

Sub-harmonic synthesizers (Rbass/Maxbass) are the devil. The plague. Satan incarnate.

Avoid at all costs. *holds up a cross and several onions*

90% of the time you shouldn't use it ever. And if you do use it, only use a smidgen of Rbass, a smidgen. It is cayenne pepper, and it can really fuck the low-end (including low-mids) of a mix.

Focus on mixing first, using EQ, and compression... before you even dream about an RBass.

Hell, if you aren't getting enough thump, try a different bass patch on your synth, or tweak the patch.

If you�re new to mixing a track, run far away from RBass (or MaxBass) UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. I used RBass and MaxBass constantly when I was younger, and learning how to mix. It was my bass-band-aid. Now, I don't touch it except for experimental effects, and if I really need some perceived bass. Sub-harmonic synthesizers can be really scary.

That's my warning. If you want to experiment, try building a full mix without a sub-harmonic synthesizer, and then adding in an RBass or MaxBass on different channel, and gradually increasing the effect just to hear what it actually does to a mix.

How pointed.
Arrite, then help me find out whether I know what I'm doing or not.

They sound clear on a pair of Rokit 8's, but I compress it when another low end sound(usually only the kick) plays. If they're the only low end components, is this still a bad use?

As I understand it, RBass looks at the existing low frequencies and puts harmonics above and below, depending one whats there. I can imagine that this would cause big issues if that sound is run through delay or reverb, or if its competing with other low sounds. But otherwise, is it still so bad?

Please go into detail; If I'm doing something somehow wrong, I've gotta know how.

^^^ I agree about the bass enhancers... dnt use em. RBass sounds particularly s**t!

quote:

I don't layer it, I separate it out and process them independently.

I think its fine to layer stuff ... thats how you get thick texture. I layer heaps of stuff. Very reaely would i use a single oscilator cos it will generally sound too week. Thats on all my synths not just bass. Sometimes i put a doubler on my rythym synth tracks and stabs to strengthen them up. Also theres no real hard and fast rules. Sometimes peeps on here seem to say "do this like this!" but theres lots of ways to do things. Just make sure its really well compressed if its bass i guess. Bass can be "waffly".
Listen a half dozen different tunes from different producers and hear how different the bass is on them all. Theres allsorts of ways to do it.
Low end production i found the hardest to get good at i'd have to say but you'l get there. You need to train your ears more than nething and that takes time.

quote:

Originally posted by MOK I can imagine that this would cause big issues if that sound is run through delay or reverb, or if its competing with other low sounds. But otherwise, is it still so bad?

As a general rule, no plug-in is bad. But what is bad is how a plug-in is applied by a user. I know that statement sounds like the Captain Obvious award of the century, but a lot of people don't get that. What I am getting at is sub harmonic synthesizers are usually used incorrectly.

Sub harmonic synthesizers can be very useful. I know some mastering guys that sublty use an RBass on an entire mix! It might sound retarded, but they argue that because this CD will be played on a wide variety of different sound systems. Headphones, and 2" speakers aren't known for thunderous low-end. However, using a SHS to emphasize low-end without physically increasing the "bass" in a track.

As far as getting bass out of your tracks, try cutting bass. Crazy right? Wrong! Sometimes, what can kill the low frequency content of a song, is one particular element dominating the subsonic frequencies. My kick drums, I high pass at 40Hz, and give them a little boost at 60Hz and 1kHz. Then I usually low-shelf my bassline a little bit at around 100Hz, nothing crazy.

Since low-frequencies have the most acoustic energy, having a kick drum or a bassline with uncontrolled subsonic frequencies will kill a mix, and it will keep you from increasing the volume of your kick or bassline.

Side-chaining (getting back to the topic now) is a very useful tool for helping to control the classic fight that is kick vs. bass. Tamping down on one or the other can help breathe life into a mix.

Here is a track where I am employing some of the techniques I just described:

http://www.last.fm/music/Wrzonance/_/Milkshakes

It isn't complete yet, and it's a rough mix (this is about an hour's worth of work).

I've high passed the kick drum, and low passed, low shelved the bassline. The kick also lightly compressed the bassline every time it hits. I haven't used any sub harmonic synthesizers.

I also created this rough mix around my Alesis M1MkIIs, which are known for exaggerating low-frequencies, so ironically this mix might not kick as much on a pair of more balanced speakers.

Anyway, I know I'm rambling on here (and probably should get back to work), but buy a good book on mixing, and really try simple compression and EQ (and smarter synth programming) before you jump for a sub harmonic-synthesizer.

Great books:



The Mixing Engineer's Handbook
Modern Recording Techniques

Thankya! I've come to the conclusion that I know I'm doing then.
Your example is pretty much what I do as well, 'cept for the splitting I include.
I just figured the OP already knew his compression & sub-audible elimination. With those in combination with awareness of what frequency components exist in your total mix, these SHS's aren't the worst thing in the world.

Word

quote:

Here is a track where I am employing some of the techniques I just described:

Interesting wrzonance i personally find that bass and kick quit muffled and held back. Its good tight production tho.
Bass Sample
Heres a recent track i have made. Hear how different they sound. But both good i think.

quote:

Originally posted by wrzonance I also created this rough mix around my Alesis M1MkIIs, which are known for exaggerating low-frequencies, so ironically this mix might not kick as much on a pair of more balanced speakers.

^--- read

quote:

Originally posted by theartfulducker Interesting wrzonance i personally find that bass and kick quit muffled and held back.

Yup.

Yeah i fully appreciate that just rough mate. I just sort of pointing out that thers a wide range of stuff that is ok.

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