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difference between bass ducking and "real" side chaining

Can anyone explain the difference between bass ducking and "real" side chaining? How does it sound different?

Cheers.

Wat do you mean>? Sidechaining is just using one signal to control an effect that manipulates another signal. It totally depends what your doing with the sidechain. For instance sidechaining an audio signal to a compressor will turn the leval down relative to the sidechain input. Sidechaining it to a gate would turn the volume up.

Both types are real. Your question/comparison is unclear. But I would say normal ducking is just applying enough compression to get some extra space for other elements where as the extreme ducking is extreme.

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Originally posted by Storyteller extreme ducking is EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!

Duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck.

Goose!

Re: difference between bass ducking and "real" side chaining

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Originally posted by trancey_spacer Can anyone explain the difference between bass ducking and "real" side chaining? How does it sound different? Cheers.

let me clear a few things up...

sidechaining simply means using a signal to trigger something. every compressor has a sidechain, but most are internal sidechains only. this means you can only compress a signal based on the signal itself. bass ducking via a compressor is achieved by using a compressor which supports an external sidechain. you route your kick to the external sidechain input and your bass to the normal input of the compressor. instead of using the internal sidechain to trigger the compressor, it will use the kick.

i'm going to assume you're trying to ask the difference between the fl studio peak controller method and the normal compressor method. both are "real" sidechaining, by definiton. however the peak controller method is not sidechain compression; it is gain ducking. unlike a compressor, which reduces the dynamic of the input sound, gain ducking simply reduces the gain (volume). usually they sound pretty similar, however the gain ducking method is very sterile and doesn't really give as much "pressure". using a compressor to sidechain, you also impart the character of that compressor on the sound. a good compressor will also probably give you some controlls which arent achievable via the peak limiter.

i suggest you read this, it will give you some more info on how a compressor works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression

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unlike a compressor, which reduces the dynamic of the input sound, gain ducking simply reduces the gain (volume).

All a compressor ducking does is turn the volume down as well. What exactly is 'reducing the dynamics?".

When you sidechain a compressor you are activating a compressor based on a key input signal. A compressor doesn't reduce gain [below the threshold], it affects [sound/]peaks [above the threshold].

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A compressor doesn't reduce gain, it affects peaks.

How exactly does it effect peaks in leval if it doesnt reduce gain?

Yes, a compressor affects the peaks (by attenuating the signal when the peak gets up over the threshold). If you're using a sidechain input, then it doesn't matter what is happening on the channel being operated on - in this example, the bass - the whole bass sound will have it's gain reduced when the sidechain is operating, not just the peaks.

A compressor does just "simply reduce the gain" - that's all a compressor truly does. It reduces the gain when the signal is above the threshold. How it goes about reducing it (how quickly it turns the volume down, how much it turns it down, how quickly it turns it back up after the signal drops back below the threshold) depends on the compressor. Then, of course, you can set the output level/ makeup gain of the compressor to bring the peaks back up where you want them. You squash the peaks, then bring the level up.

To answer the original question - if by bass ducking you mean ducking the whole bass sound, then there is no audible difference between "real sidechain compression" and automating the channel's volume, if you've automated it with the same shape as the compressor settings you'd be using. Generally a compressor is quicker and easier for the purpose - if you want to tweak the settings, you can just tweak them, without drawing in the automation all over again.

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A compressor does just "simply reduce the gain" - that's all a compressor truly does.

Exactly.

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there is no audible difference between "real sidechain compression" and automating the channel's volume,

Exactly right.

There is something thats been bugging me with the compressor in Ableton. My Signal automatically becomes louder without even touching the threshold! Why is that? and how is that possible? There isnt even any GR being displayed yet!

That is odd. If the input signal isn't going over the threshold and the compressor's output is set to unity (that is, the signal comes out at the same level it comes in) then nothing should be happening to the sound (unless the compressor colours the sound in some way even when it's not operating).

I don't use the compressors in Live, I apply compression on the channels when I bring them into Cubase, so I can't answer the question off the top of my head. Maybe I'll insert a Live compressor at some point and find out what it's doing.

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Originally posted by Dj Nacht There is something thats been bugging me with the compressor in Ableton. My Signal automatically becomes louder without even touching the threshold! Why is that? and how is that possible? There isnt even any GR being displayed yet!

There is a ghost in your compressor. Who ya gonna call?

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Originally posted by derail A compressor does just "simply reduce the gain" - that's all a compressor truly does. It reduces the gain when the signal is above the threshold.

actually not. in simple terms, loud sounds over a certain threshold are reduced in level; quiet sounds are not reduced. In this way it reduces the dynamic range of an audio signal.

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Originally posted by thecYrus actually not. in simple terms, loud sounds over a certain threshold are reduced in level; quiet sounds are not reduced. In this way it reduces the dynamic range of an audio signal.

It reduces the gain when the signal is above the threshold.

Depending on where the threshold is, quiet sounds will very probably not be reduced. I don't understand how you understood that I meant that quiet sounds are reduced, by "when the signal is above the threshold".

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Originally posted by thecYrus actually not. in simple terms, loud sounds over a certain threshold are reduced in level; quiet sounds are not reduced. In this way it reduces the dynamic range of an audio signal.

Yes but surely when using a compressor sidechain, this doesn't apply at all as the compressor is activated by the extrenal signal (eg kick drum) NOT by the level going above the threshold...

That's right G-Con. If the compressor on the bass is being triggered by the kick, it doesn't matter what's happening on the bass channel. Whenever the kick hits, the bass channel's compressor will react to it and reduce the gain of the bass channel.




There seems to be a lot of confusion about compression out there....

The only thing a compressor does is reduce the gain when the signal is above the threshold. That's it. As a by-product of that, when you raise the output level/makeup gain of the compressor, the dynamic range will be reduced - the level differences between the loud and quiet sounds will be reduced, and you'll get a more consistent, louder overall level.

The only thing a compressor actually does is reduce gain. I can't say it enough.

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Originally posted by derail That's right G-Con. If the compressor on the bass is being triggered by the kick, it doesn't matter what's happening on the bass channel. Whenever the kick hits, the bass channel's compressor will react to it and reduce the gain of the bass channel.

hrm...

so what you are saying is that, in a normal compressor, the input detector simply triggers gain reduction when the input signal goes above the threshold? makes sense. i've never actually looked into it. i just assumed that the detector triggered some kind of "compression thingo" that cut the peaks themselves (not reducing the whole volume of the input). i guess gain ducking and sidechain compression are literally the same thing, just done in different ways.

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i suggest you read this, it will give you some more info on how a compressor works:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression

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so what you are saying is that, in a normal compressor, the input detector simply triggers gain reduction when the input signal goes above the threshold? makes sense. i've never actually looked into it. i just assumed that the detector triggered some kind of "compression thingo"

Maybe you should have read that as well?

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Originally posted by theartfulducker Maybe you should have read that as well?

i did, thats the funny part

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Originally posted by echosystm i guess gain ducking and sidechain compression are literally the same thing, just done in different ways.

Yes, but (as mentioned earlier here) to get that nice, pumping sound one needs to fine tune attack, release and threshold on the sidechain compressor, preferably in realtime. And that's hard to achieve by automation of gain/level.

I can't believe there's still so much misunderstanding about compression. derail has it right.

A compressor is just an automated gain control. It temporarily lowers the volume whenever the audio it's processing goes above a certain level. The precise way that it automates the volume will be affected by the compression settings (attack, release, ratio, etc.) you use.

That is all a compressor does. Really not that difficult of a concept to understand.

Mastering the use of it is a lot harder, of course. But understanding the basic idea is very easy.

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