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Should brent crude oil get de-listed from commodity exchange?

And all speculative trading in oil forbidden..

If yes, than how you think is the best possible way to discover the price of oil?

Excuse me.. but noone has any answeres? Its expected from a capitalist society.... atleast you can vote....

I believe that high oil prices will usher in a new era of public transit infrastructure investment, green technology, and energy reform.

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Originally posted by Krypton I believe that high oil prices will usher in a new era of public transit infrastructure investment, green technology, and energy reform.

I hope you're right.

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Originally posted by CHRles I hope you're right.

We essentially have no choice if oil price inflation continues. Look at Europe and how sophisticated their public transit system is. Over there, people live without cars just fine. You want to travel from Italy to England? Fine, hop on the next train, take the bus, etc. America, as I've argued in a previous thread, has an abysmal public transit system. It's funny because, a lot of people on her disagreed with me...

Re: Should brent crude oil get de-listed from commodity exchange?

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Originally posted by Kinezi And all speculative trading in oil forbidden.. If yes, than how you think is the best possible way to discover the price of oil?

I don't even understand your question.

"de listed", that doesn't really work.

The only way you can really "de list" something is to strictly regulate the market for it, like plutonium, cocain, or anthrax.

Yeah, so guess what, I don't think oil should be "de listed" quite yet.

and no it wouldn't be the best possible way to discover the "price of oil". In fact I might say it is the worst possible way to find the price of oil.

But then, if you really want to get into it, oil has no price. It is only ever worth what an individual will pay for it. But now we're getting into some heavy theoretical economics.

Do you want to know more?

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Originally posted by Krypton We essentially have no choice if oil price inflation continues. Look at Europe and how sophisticated their public transit system is. Over there, people live without cars just fine. You want to travel from Italy to England? Fine, hop on the next train, take the bus, etc. America, as I've argued in a previous thread, has an abysmal public transit system. It's funny because, a lot of people on her disagreed with me...

Wait, people think public transit in the US is good?

Oh boy.

A bigger problem is that infrastructure takes years to addapt, the price of oil takes hours or even minutes.

There is going to be a lot of pain adapting to 140 $/barrel oil.

Any city who has the subway crews digging right now is laughing. The rest are going to be up $h!t creek.

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Originally posted by atbell Wait, people think public transit in the US is good? Oh boy.

Yea, Jer and Lez do. But Lez lives in DC, which has a huge transit network...

Re: Re: Should brent crude oil get de-listed from commodity exchange?

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Originally posted by atbell I don't even understand your question. "de listed", that doesn't really work. The only way you can really "de list" something is to strictly regulate the market for it, like plutonium, cocain, or anthrax. Yeah, so guess what, I don't think oil should be "de listed" quite yet. and no it wouldn't be the best possible way to discover the "price of oil". In fact I might say it is the worst possible way to find the price of oil. But then, if you really want to get into it, oil has no price. It is only ever worth what an individual will pay for it. But now we're getting into some heavy theoretical economics. Do you want to know more?

Bananna, Apple, Tea is not listed.. neither is the market strictly government regulated like plutonium.

By de-listing is pretty common term, I am surprised you didnt know what it means.. say Microsoft fails to pay annual listing fees to NASDAQ, than it will get -de listed' from the exchange, their wont be any price flash.. all speculative trading pulling the price up pr down of the said company will not happen anymnore..

Oil has has a price. Every commodity has a price. Its just the price discovery mechanism of oil is screwed up. Other way to discover price is by auction.. like it happens in case of tobbacco leafs from columbia, bananas from brazil.. lets get rid of oil in exchanges and set up auction houses by OPEC.. and let govts, refinaries, oil companies directly buy oil from these auction house.. preventing 'speculative' bidding..

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Originally posted by Krypton America, as I've argued in a previous thread, has an abysmal public transit system. It's funny because, a lot of people on her disagreed with me...

Outside of a few large cities public transit in this country is a joke. I tend to agree that low gas prices have prevented adoption of public transit in this country. I know in my city there has been a mass exodus to the suburbs the past several decades and absolutely no effective mass transit system to bring people into the city from there. When gas was $1.05 a gallon nobody gave a fuck about public transit, it wasn't that expensive to drive in and a bus/train/whatever would be a hassle. Now gas is $3.79 and the only public transit we have here are some shitty busses which are expensive, time consuming (few expresses from the suburbs), and have to sit in traffic the same as the cars do.

I know that I personally would love to drive a few miles to a light rail station and take that into the city but there is no light rail here. All we have is a plan to expand I-75 to 5 lanes for 35 miles and really that isn't even going to help that much with traffic delays and will do nothing to take cars off the road and provide a cheaper and faster means of transit. Light rail was put up to a vote here years ago and failed badly, but gas was still cheap then. I hope someone brings back the idea, maybe it would have support now. God knows we need it.

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Originally posted by Krypton I've argued in a previous thread, has an abysmal public transit system. It's funny because, a lot of people on her disagreed with me...

you clearly missed what we were saying in that thread. neither of us said american public transportation is efficient. i fully acknowledge that outside of NY, NJ, Chicago, and a few other cities the transportation systems are shit. we said the american people have molded the transportation systems by the lack of demand and life style choices. cities like tampa don't have good transportation systems because the people haven't demanded a good system in the past and have made lifestyle choices that coveted the car.


as to the initial question, no. oil futures have a legitimate business purpose. the whole intent of commodity futures is so businesses can determined their costs in the future. despite rising prices, businesses can accurately determine their energy costs in advance by purchasing oil futures. the fact that prices are increasing because of speculation doesn't change the fact that companies are limiting their risk of price increases while the contract is open. the whole point is so businesses can lock in a price, that function is still served.

Or people could start car pooling. To be honest, I haven't heard anything about that idea since this whole "crisis" got started. My dad works in highway construction and he said that it's pretty apparent no one really cares when you're watching thousands of cars slowly pass through with only 1 person in them.

People in this country think it's their god-given right to live 25 miles from civilization and they need to realize that there's a cost to that sort of selfishness.

We have spent almost a trillion in Iraq so far.. Imagine what a badass public transportation system that money could have bought..

We could have created nationwide network of 100mph magnetic monorails for less than a trillion dollars..

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 you clearly missed what we were saying in that thread. neither of us said american public transportation is efficient. i fully acknowledge that outside of NY, NJ, Chicago, and a few other cities the transportation systems are shit. we said the american people have molded the transportation systems by the lack of demand and life style choices. cities like tampa don't have good transportation systems because the people haven't demanded a good system in the past and have made lifestyle choices that coveted the car.

That's very true, but when it comes down to getting to work, school, grocery store, etc., people have little choice than to use their cars and buy gasoline. Because people have not clamored for mass transit as good as Europe's, they rely on their cars and SUVs. That is why people have little choice than to buy gasoline at higher and higher prices.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt We have spent almost a trillion in Iraq so far.. Imagine what a badass public transportation system that money could have bought.. We could have created nationwide network of 100mph magnetic monorails for less than a trillion dollars..

the entire line of events that brought us to this point may not have occurred without the war. the war is a huge drain on the federal budget, which assists in the devaluing of the dollar. The devaluing of the dollar is a substantial factor in rising inflation and the increasing cost of oil. without that rise, people wouldn't give a shit about public transportation. so, without the war, there is no way the american people would approve 1 trillion in borrowing from china to improve public transportation.

in 20 years, people may look at the terribly horrible policies (in current terms) of bush as the great facilitator of alternative fuels and improved public transportation. that's why in the thread about bush being the worst president in history i reserved my opinion because we have no idea how the consequences of his current failed policies will effect the future.

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Originally posted by Krypton That's very true, but when it comes down to getting to work, school, grocery store, etc., people have little choice than to use their cars and buy gasoline. Because people have not clamored for mass transit as good as Europe's, they rely on their cars and SUVs. That is why people have little choice than to buy gasoline at higher and higher prices.

you're still missing the underlying point. people made those choices to move to the suburbs. people easily could have decided not to move to those areas. to this day, people can still make choices that affect how spaces are designed.

Europe developed differently because land was not owned by most people. people were forced to live where land was available. many of the open areas of europe were owned by european aristocracy, and they were not about to open its land so peasants could flee cities. on the other hand, since the homestead act, average americans have had significantly more property rights and ownership than europeans.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 on the other hand, since the homestead act, average americans have had significantly more property rights and ownership than europeans.

Even because, if you exclude Russia, the US is still slighly bigger than the US, and is much more populated.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 you're still missing the underlying point. people made those choices to move to the suburbs. people easily could have decided not to move to those areas. to this day, people can still make choices that affect how spaces are designed. Europe developed differently because land was not owned by most people. people were forced to live where land was available. many of the open areas of europe were owned by european aristocracy, and they were not about to open its land so peasants could flee cities. on the other hand, since the homestead act, average americans have had significantly more property rights and ownership than europeans.

Ok, someone who lives 20 miles from work. What does he do if he lives in say...Tampa? What's his alternative to his car? Millions of people just can't pack up their bags and move back to the city.

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Originally posted by Krypton Ok, someone who lives 20 miles from work. What does he do if he lives in say...Tampa? What's his alternative to his car? Millions of people just can't pack up their bags and move back to the city.

you seem like a smart kid, i don't get why you can't see the big picture. in the aggregate, floridians, and much of the nation, have chosen the lifestyle they live. noone forces them to live where they do. it's that easy. people from poland, russia, china, thailand, etc... all pack up and move to NY. why can't people from florida do the same? the answer is simple: they don't want to do it.

people demand housing much like any other product. people can demand housing where they want and at the density they want. you happen to choose low density far from urban centers. the consequences of that choice are $100 dollar fill ups. I choose to live 5 miles outside of Manhattan. it's a conscious choice i make so i don't have a brutal commute. you, and everyone else, can do the same. stop saying people have no choice because that's a bullshit excuse people make which really means they don't WANT to do it.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 you seem like a smart kid, i don't get why you can't see the big picture. in the aggregate, floridians, and much of the nation, have chosen the lifestyle they live. noone forces them to live where they do. it's that easy. people from poland, russia, china, thailand, etc... all pack up and move to NY. why can't people from florida do the same? the answer is simple: they don't want to do it. people demand housing much like any other product. people can demand housing where they want and at the density they want. you happen to choose low density far from urban centers. the consequences of that choice are $100 dollar fill ups. I choose to live 5 miles outside of Manhattan. it's a conscious choice i make so i don't have a brutal commute. you, and everyone else, can do the same. stop saying people have no choice because that's a bullshit excuse people make which really means they don't WANT to do it.

If everyone moved out of the suburbs, wouldn't there be overcrowding in the cities?

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Originally posted by Krypton If everyone moved out of the suburbs, wouldn't there be overcrowding in the cities?

possibly, but the more likely situation is that most suburban areas would become more densely populated (like rural town centers), and the suburbs surrounding cities would become extensions of the cities they surround. there is a limit to how dense an area can become, at that point, the density spreads out from the city core much like it does today, however, all surrounding areas would see greater density, which decreases as the distance from the city core increases.

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Or people could start car pooling. To be honest, I haven't heard anything about that idea since this whole "crisis" got started. My dad works in highway construction and he said that it's pretty apparent no one really cares when you're watching thousands of cars slowly pass through with only 1 person in them. People in this country think it's their god-given right to live 25 miles from civilization and they need to realize that there's a cost to that sort of selfishness.

Ya right.. and when your car pool partner smells like shit, reaks in alchohol or put a sharp object like a knife under your eyes or throat.. you say my god.. what a price to pay for cheaper trasportation! Your idea is utopian.. people use mass transit because other masses are there and it gives a sense of security.. car pooling is a foolish life threatening risk you take everyday.

All people who said yes to de-listing oil from exchanges.. and in the process stop speculative, artificial price rise.. suggest your solution as to how than the price of oil should be set? How about a semi-annual United Nations General meeting style conference in UNO?

Ditch the US$, buy oil in Euro's.
What hasn't helped at all in terms of recent spikes in price per barrel is the US$ being so 'aberrant' in its behaviour... along with a couple of other factors like the China/India demand which just simply outstrips supply.

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Originally posted by Kinezi Ya right.. and when your car pool partner smells like shit, reaks in alchohol or put a sharp object like a knife under your eyes or throat.. you say my god.. what a price to pay for cheaper trasportation! Your idea is utopian.. people use mass transit because other masses are there and it gives a sense of security.. car pooling is a foolish life threatening risk you take everyday.

You're a moron, I wasn't saying to pick up complete strangers. Does everyone that you work with smell like shit, reeks of alcohol or will slit your throat?

Seriously, this response is so much dumber than anything I could have expected.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt We have spent almost a trillion in Iraq so far.. Imagine what a badass public transportation system that money could have bought.. We could have created nationwide network of 100mph magnetic monorails for less than a trillion dollars..

I think it is about time for Iraq to start paying us back for their freedom with free oil.

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