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Levels When Producing a Tune

Hi all. As a newbie producer i would just like some advice with regards to the levels of your tracks when producing. What i mean is, ive read that you should base the level of your various tracks around that of the kick. If this is the case what is an optimum level for the kick to be at? Is it a case of getting the kick sound as you want it and then simply bringing the fader down to a certain level, such as -6db for example, and then leaving it there until the track is complete? Also, what about the master output. Should the fader be untouched and the output monitored so that it never clips or should it be brought down to allow for extra sounds to be added? I feel this is an important subject that is often overlooked on these forums, yet crucial in obtaining a profesionally sounding 'loud' tune. Any screenshots of peoples finished track on their hosts mixer screen would also be ideal in visually showing what they mean. Thanks for your time.

There are no strict guidelines for these questions and there is only 1 rule:

"If it sounds good it is good."

It doesn't matter how you achieve the end result. It is however recommended to keep the level of your master channel at least below clipping (0dB) . How you do that is (in my opinion) irrelevant because, again, the same rule mentioned above applies.

However, some people let their tracks clip on purpose, it's a matter of taste and working methods really.

Yes, there are no rules. But starting with the kick peaking at -11dB to -8dB is a good guideline.

Since a couple of weeks, I've been using a very free tool to check you dB output. The plugin is the Solid State Logic X-ISM and is very accurate. Link (you have to subscribe though, but it's really worth it).

I use this on the master out in Cubase. This little tool really helps me to see howmany dB my output is. I always make sure that it is just below 0dB.

I also use the kick as a guideline for how the levels of the different tracks should be. Mostly, the kicklevel is -6dB, but my compressor pumps the volume up again.

I also use the Waves L3 on my master. If the volume is to low, I can easily pump it up with the L3.

quote:

Originally posted by Theran Since a couple of weeks, I've been using a very free tool to check you dB output. The plugin is the Solid State Logic X-ISM and is very accurate. Link (you have to subscribe though, but it's really worth it). I use this on the master out in Cubase. This little tool really helps me

Downloaded. Thanks for the recommendation.

Ive been basing my overall levels around the kick.
I peak it @ -8 db, and then run it through a maximizer at the final output when the composition is complete and I'm ready to enter the loudness war.

It's good to have certain levels as a starting point, so your sounds are roughly in the ballpark. However, where the levels finally end up is a matter of artistic judgement, based on the sound of the samples you use - one kick may sound fine at -8dB, another may sound fine at -6dB.

Use levels as a guide, but if you try to apply a mathematical process such as "my kick should be at -6, my snare at -10, my hihat at -16" (these numbers are pulled out of the air and bear no relation to any actual mixing situation) then you'll end up with some very uneven, unmusical mixes.

You will get better at setting your levels with experience, as long as you're paying attention to your results, comparing them to your favourite tracks, learning and making adjustments.

it's very unimportant to have the elements at specific volumes. the important point is the volume RATIO between those elements.

quote:

Originally posted by MOK I peak it @ -8 db

Thanks to everyone that has posted. All very helpful points.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm

Thx descriptive quality input.

quote:

Originally posted by Theran Since a couple of weeks, I've been using a very free tool to check you dB output. The plugin is the Solid State Logic X-ISM and is very accurate. Link (you have to subscribe though, but it's really worth it). I use this on the master out in Cubase. This little tool really helps me to see howmany dB my output is. I always make sure that it is just below 0dB.

Why on earth would you need this when Cubase has a built-in meter on every channel?

Yeah i dnt quite understand. Meters have this red light that comes on lol. It tells you when your going over 0dbs ... ?

yes, theartfulducker, the clipping lights come on when the level goes over the threshold set by the DAW. Sometimes this will be 0dB, sometimes 3dB, wherever the designer of the DAW decided to put the level, whether they decided to leave headroom or not.

The discussion here is about where elements in the mix should sit relative to each other. In practical terms, no instrument should ever go "over/red light clip" by itself - potentially if the highest the kick drum reaches is -8dB, then once the other instruments are in place the overall mix will be somewhere close to 0dB. But even the hottest element in the track, the kick, will go nowhere near clipping on it's own.

Reason doesn't display every channel's dB level though (hmm...at least I don't think that was introduced in Reason 4...I bring the tracks into Cubase and do my mixing there, so I haven't paid huge attention to the new Reason sequencer lanes...). But yes, it will tell you if the overall level of the track is in the red.

But in Reason, you could still set up a template with the levels of each element set to nominal starting levels, rather than starting with all faders at 100. But that's totally up to individual preference. Some people like starting with a certain ballpark, some people like having all the faders up at unity and turn things down, some people like having everything at 0 and bring the faders up one at a time to their appropriate levels. As long as the method produces excellent results, it's fine.

use your ears yo

meters can be helpful, but not the be all and end all

david

ok so levels should roughly be around -11 --8db what levels should it be say if your just playing Kick and Bass.

say your kick is at -8db what level once you put the bass on should the level go upto?

I'm also curious about 'proper' levels when putting together a track.

Are you guys saying that each individual sound should be set at a certain dB (taking into account, of course, that things need to sit (sound) correctly in the mix relative to each other)? E.g. the kick drum should peak around -8dB on its own channel? And then the other sounds, e.g. the bass-line, should peak at some other level on its own channel? Or, alternatively, are we talking about levels on the master? I'm just trying to walk through the steps in my head of how to build a track. So, for example, I find a kick that I like and I make sure that it peaks at 'x' Db and then I do the same for the bassline, the snare, the arp, and so on?

No theres no particular levals for anything. You prolly want your kick pretty high in a trance track but that would obviously sound stupid ina rock song. Use your ears and make sure it all sounds good and make sure nothing is redlining basically. Pretty simple really. Theres no secret trick to it, or special textbook of levals for things. People who mixdown tracks better have trained there ears more basically. Getting to know your monitors helps too.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Why on earth would you need this when Cubase has a built-in meter on every channel?

hahaha

i try to keep everything as hot as i can without clipping at any point in the fx chain... then i just turn down that particular channel in the mixer...

people often forget about the noise floor... not sure how applicable this is in a digital environment with only generated sounds, but i like to play it safe

david

quote:

Originally posted by davidbuhau people often forget about the noise floor... not sure how applicable this is in a digital environment with only generated sounds, but i like to play it safe david

Depends on whether you're using hardware or software. If you're using hardware, potentially the outputs may have a little noise associated with them, potentially the audio cables may pick up a trace bit of noise. You'd be able to tell very easily how much noise/ hiss/ whatever there is after recording a part - just crank the volume way up at the start of the recording before there's any sound and see if there's anything there but silence.

With software instruments, unless they've been programmed strangely, there should be zero noise. There are no cables, no connections, nothing which would conceivably produce noise.

Back in the day, equipment had a higher level of inherent noise, so engineers tried to capture the incoming signal as hotly as possible, to get the widest distance between the signal and the hiss/dirt/noise floor. This resulted in the "cleanest" signal. If you were recording many instruments and they all came with a bit of noise, eventually all that noise built up to a degree. Many times engineers even let the signal go "over" (that is, red light) now and then - it was a tradeoff, to maximize the distance between the signal and the noise floor.

In the digital domain, using modern equipment, the noise floor should be extremely negligible or non-existent. The damage done to the recorded sound by letting the channel ever go into the red, at any point, is much worse than the gains in getting a clean signal well away from the noise floor. In most cases you should be able to record comfortably at many, many dBs under 0 with no audible difference in sound quality.

Noise floor isn't quite zero in a software environment, but it's so low that it's not worth worrying about. We're talking on the order of -100 dB or so - your mix would have to be barely audible for that to make any impact.

Truncation and dithering do make an impact, though. When you do your final bounce to 16 bits, if your mix peaks at -3 dB, you've effectively reduced your resolution to 15 bits. -6 dB peak, 14 bits. And so on. It's almost like sticking a bitcrusher on the master out, except not quite as dramatic.

Yes, if the overall mix peaks well below 0dB that is an issue.

I work at 24 bit for recording and mixing (then bounce down to 16 bit for the final output file, if it's not going to external mastering). I set my recording levels at a point where the signal is strong, but there's no chance it will go "over".

Where does the noise come from when using a VST? Or is the noise floor inside the sequencer itself, so there's an overall noise floor, but not a cumulative one when using multiple VSTs?

lol my projects constantly clip i dont really pay attention to it. i r sukkkkkkkk

worrying about noise floor is just an old habbit i guess

as for clippin, i don't worry about clips when im writing melodies and pads and just laying out some ideas, i worry about all the techy stuff later... sometimes when working with friends on projects, the stuff is driving 6db over during the creative process part... then they leave, and i fix it

heh

david

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