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-- simple question on kick and bass eq's

simple question on kick and bass eq's

hi guys me again with maybe another noobie question. yes at this point i should already be past this but with a new recent monitor set up and studio building ( well which is coming eventualy this week or next once i get time)

i am back at a square one. this point is a conflict with EQing my kick and sub bass

the age old quetion i guess, or at least i hope it not just me.

well let me start off saying i use vengeance uk trance kicks, pretty much exclusivley up until restenly when i got the house essentails to tone down my style a bit.

anyway i was once and maybe even more then that told that vengeance samples come processed and bassicaly ready to be put into any song. so what i have been doing is using my kick sample as a foundation point and building a song around it in hopes that it is actually true that the sample can be used with so much confidence.

so what i have had troubles with latley is eqing my kick and bass together.

my theroy from what i have read on this board (vengeance kicks being a great standard point and foundation) i have eq'ed my bass line around that, with the kick being the main focus and the sub bass being fit in to where ever it can fit.

now what i have done is usually cut the bass at a low level in freq while keeping the kick in a freq just a bit lower (kck low freq "maybe around 60 - 80- , while i have the sub bass being cut at 80- 120, hich gives the sub bass a push throw the mix but i don't think it's low enough and can lack that pumpin' sound that we all go for)
i belieave this is tech is what other people do from what i have read on this site. but my problem of concern comes from a simple fact and that is this.
when i think i have my kick and bass eq's just right with each other (and this i do on solo of the two parts)
i find tha when the sub bass comes in it shortens the kick decay.
although i have heard this happen in ather pro songs that have been realeased i'm still wondering if this is right or wrong.
to me it seems wrong, in theroy that is. i feel that the kick should have it's own space, and that is the space to ring out fully and the sub bass should also have it's own (and from what i have heard it's a higher freq of the sub bass , which essentially give the kick it's own space)
so really i'm trying to build my bass around the kick (which sometimes if not most has little to no eq on it, for the reason that i am trusting the vengeance pre procesd samples. to have already done half the work for me and give me my starting point.



oh yeah , sorry , i think another main thing i'm trying to fiure out here is if the kick sits lower in freq then the sub bass?! (this may be my main question !!!!) i can offer this beacuase evry exaple is different
i almost always have my sub bass sitting very low in the mix , to a point where it is alomst a struggle to get it to sound just as strong when the pitch changes (usually from f sharp down to d?? i think i actually don't have my key baord in front off me but i will specify later.
i have found that the sub i use kinda always sits on pair with the kick ass the root note. then and only then can i really fell ifit fits is when i change pitches throw out the song. (another part i have been having trouble with, but that is probably another thread in it's own). and yes i use me ears, f course , but some samples seems way to far pitched to fit into my song oncei hear it on better speakers.

always thanks for your help. it is greattly appreciated !!!






and i really hope this isn't too noob although i have n asking and learning things on this site for over a year. i have just come to the point where i just need to get this part solved so it doesn't take up any more creative time and space.

thanks again !!!

Try side-chaining the two sounds (with the kick as the trigger for compressing the bass-line).

I *believe* this is one possible solution to your problem.

i have tried it and done it. but yes a very good techniqe. i almost always add at least a bit of sidechain on my basslines.

mainly what i'm curios of is if it is normal for the sub bass to take up some of the kick freq, whcih results in a shortening of the kick.

i must say that i still have the kick pressing threw on the original hit , like it doesnt get drowned out in level or volume but just shorted when the sub comes in after the 32 measures, which i'm sure well all understand.
i'm just kinda confoused beacuse i have hear this in other songs and from toher producers that i look up to, but i still don't think it is quite right??? or maybe i'm wrong and it is a natural thing that happens when you add a sub bass of the same pitch with a kick.

stoneface & terminal productions is where i have heard the differance in kick to kick and sub. i love there sound but still can't get my mind over the simple freq issue. maybe i'm just trippy and spending too much time on tryin small perfections, but really that's the point i'm at. still learning what works and sounds best.

again thank you for any help an insight to this on going delema, much appreciated

quote:

Originally posted by lowski mainly what i'm curios of is if it is normal for the sub bass to take up some of the kick freq, whcih results in a shortening of the kick.

Yes, that is normal. As long as the kicks sub frequencies are louder than the bassline's it's okay. Sub frequencies will always be a bit messy.

quote:

Originally posted by Eldritch Yes, that is normal. As long as the kicks sub frequencies are louder than the bassline's it's okay. Sub frequencies will always be a bit messy.

thanks for the input. i was actually hoping to ... well this just sounds stupid (well now that i said it i will say it the best i can).
but to actually find back on on some kind of freq track that lets the kick and the bass sit as close as they can before sounding like mud, would have been perfect.

so i will make a simple question.

When eqing your kick to your bass, what usually sits lower?.

Kick, definately. but I suppose it depends alot on what style you're producing.

quote:

Originally posted by lowski thanks for the input. i was actually hoping to ... well this just sounds stupid (well now that i said it i will say it the best i can). but to actually find back on on some kind of freq track that lets the kick and the bass sit as close as they can before sounding like mud, would have been perfect. so i will make a simple question. When eqing your kick to your bass, what usually sits lower?.

Actually I think that depends on the type of music your making...

But whatever you do, eq both, or one, so that they are compatible with the other (basically just sounds clean and good, without killing the bass in the process)

quote:

now what i have done is usually cut the bass at a low level in freq while keeping the kick in a freq just a bit lower (kck low freq "maybe around 60 - 80- , while i have the sub bass being cut at 80- 120, hich gives the sub bass a push throw the mix but i don't think it's low enough and can lack that pumpin' sound that we all go for)

Thats some funny EQing. I dnt quite understand what your tyring to do there. Sound like your trying too hard. It shouldnt be that hard to get kick and bass sounding allright together.

you should just spend some time on it, a good idea is to sidechain LAST, after it already SOUNDS GOOD, this way you're just adding a little extra oomph to the bottom end...

david

Seems like you're having the classic lower frequencies problem, I guess we've all been there ....

First of all, a little tip. Club systems usually cannot go any lower than 50Hz, so try not to go under there, actually, what I do, is put an EQ on the master and cut anything below 50Hz, that will also remove some rumble under there.

But for your lower frequency problem. As said before, sidechaining could really help your problem, and you said you already tried that but you want to know how your kick and bass can co-exist without sidechaining. First of all, you can avoid this by setting up the following pattern of kick and bass:

K---K---K---K---
--B---B---B---B-

or (like in Stoneface & Terminal - Pictures)

K---K---K---K---
-B-B--B--B-B--B-

In this way, the kick and bass won't clatch, that is ofcourse if the release on you subbass isn't to long.
The other thing is to use a spectral analyser to see which frequencies are used by the kick and bass, and just cut those with your EQ.
BTW: It's true that the vengeance samples have been processed so you should be able to use them directly in you track. However, I've never found a kicksample from Vengeance that I could use directly in one of my tracks, I always process them myself.

quote:

First of all, a little tip. Club systems usually cannot go any lower than 50Hz, so try not to go under there, actually, what I do, is put an EQ on the master and cut anything below 50Hz, that will also remove some rumble under there.

I dnt think that correct at all.

quote:

Originally posted by theartfulducker I dnt think that correct at all.

And yet, very true....Link

It say nothing on there about Club PAs not producing sound under 50 hzt thats rubbish.

For rolling bass lines I cut a good deal of the lower frequencies out and add a sub bass from another synth on a slight side chain around the kick.
For something like a K-B-K-B-K-B-K-B line I'll only cut the really low frequencies so I get a nice pulsating sound. So yeh it depends.

quote:

Originally posted by theartfulducker It say nothing on there about Club PAs not producing sound under 50 hzt thats rubbish.

That's true, however, it says the following:
Also we must keep in mind that 50Hz is a very "boomy" frequency that will make many speakers distort and ruin the rest of the track. While 50Hz sounds great on my Mackie 824's, I can guarantee you it does not so so tight on other speakers..

I actually know for a fact (read it on Sound on Sound, don't know which issue) that you should avoid going below 50Hz, because most club systems can't handle that.

If I find the issue, I'll let you know ...

But why do you think otherwise?

Full range systems should go down to 20 Hz just fine. If you analyse most trance tracks, there is still a decent amount of content below 50 Hz. These frequencies aren't really audible, but listeners can definitely feel them, especially at loud volumes.

It's generally not a big deal (I think?) to filter out some of the sub bass frequencies, since there is a wide range, in terms of sub bass levels, in trance tracks. As long as the filter slope one uses isn't extreme it won't eliminate these frequencies completely (getting rid of them completely may definitely make your track stand out for the wrong reason). Eliminating them completely is also unnecessary. Well-built speakers won't attempt to reproduce frequencies they aren't able to reproduce.

As for the original question - think about how you want the kick and sub bass to interact. Do you want them both to have long decays? If you're happy for the kick to have a short decay, why not choose a sample with a short decay, or use e.g. an envelope shaper to shorten the decay of the sample you've chosen? For some people, it's okay that the kick sounds different when the bass is added. For others, they want the kick consistent throughout. There's no right or wrong, it's an artistic decision. Decide how you want it to sound, then find ways to make that happen. A lot of sub basses operate below the kick. 80 to 100Hz I wouldn't classify as sub bass, since those frequencies can definitely be heard at least as much as they are felt.

Yeah a big sub will make sound lower than 20 hz, you wont hear it as such but you'l sure feel it. Humans can usually hear down to about 20hz. Its is correct to low cut your stuff but I personally think 50hz would start to take away from your sound. Sub is nice. I low cut these days at 30hz. Cut at 20 - 25 hz is fine.

i also suggest with the side chain type effect, instead of ducking the volume of the bass, try just ducking a kinda narrow frequency range (ie the predominant frequency that the kick lives in). this way you get to keep the texture of the bass without having crazy spikes in that particular frequency range..

uhhh... 50hz is a bit high...

i'd suggest rolling off the very bottom end though (i roll off the master at 20ish hz) but i roll off higher on my individual mixer channels... i use my ears, not some doccument, to decide where to roll off

david

quote:

Originally posted by davidbuhau i use my ears, not some doccument, to decide where to roll off

Well.. Not me! I make a textbook trance-track eevery time .

You know David, lot's of times I already heard you say, I use my ears, not some document.
You know what, sometimes I use documents or visual tools because sometimes minor differences can't always be percieved by the ear. If that was so, why do they have spectral analyzers, it's just a visual tool.
And most of my knowledge of audio production, comes from documents, how did you learn than?
I'm sure that you can't tell me, if I play you a sound, in exactly what frequence-range it is.

And about the 50Hz, I admit that's its a little high to cut off, but I am sure I read that in a book somewhere, but I could misread it, or the author was wrong. However, I will cut down from 20-30Hz in the next track, to see how that works.

Owyeah, I hope you solved the kick + bass problem you had!

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