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Digital mixing vs. competent beat matching

I'd like to hear some opinions on the following: how do you feel about someone using a pure digital setup (i.e., laptop DJ or laptop plus something like an Xponent or the Vestax equivalent which gives the DJ the ability to auto beat match) vs. someone who uses vinyl or CDJs but is so adept at beat matching that he/she might as well be using some means of auto beat matching.

The reason I ask is pure curiosity based on some comments I've been in various places. For example, I've seen people state something along the lines of "if you're using Ableton only, you'd better do something great with it to wow me," etc.

But let me spice up the scenario by adding this: assume that the DJ in question is only doing long blends of, say, house, trance, progressive, or even some breaks. In this case, is there really any difference between someone going purely digital vs. CDJs or vinyl (again, assume that the DJ is so adept at beat matching that it's really not a challenge for him/her)? I would think given these assumptions, the set would really be all about phrasing, programming, and EQing properly. Agree? Disagree?

For me personally, manual beat matching is the way to go. It's just part of the fun of DJing. No disrespect to laptop Djs though, but of course my expectations of them are higher than average.

Good music matters, absolutely nothing else does.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT Good music matters, absolutely nothing else does.

I honestly thought you'd be a little more critical than that, Rob. Not trying to pick a fight, obviously, but I was under the impression that you weren't easily impressed with a "laptop" DJ. Perhaps I've misunderstood.

Music is the most important. As long as they're not playing a prerecorded cd, I don't really have a problem with anything else personally.

As a DJ, I love manual beatmatching. As someone above said, that's part of the fun of it. I came from years of messing around on virtual dj with my mouse, just learning eqing before I bought my gear in '06. The ability to "feel" the music by moving the platter is what it's all about.

Nevertheless, to call yourself a DJ, I think you should at least know how to beatmatch quickly/accurately/manually. It's sort of a bare essential.

I too prefer to beat match manually. I like to think that I'm doing something while I'm fucking around behind the decks other than just picking the next track and pushing play. I just wondered how people felt about the issue given how easy it is now to have things done automatically now.

i agree with everyone else it's all about the music, but the laptop dj's are missing out on all the fun. it's like driving an automatic transmission car vs manual transmission, the manual transmission you feel more like a part of the car and have more control. to put it super cheesy it's a more intimate experience

i also find that manually selecting and beat matching gives you a more intuitive and natural timing on the mixes that works well with a crowd. when you are deejaying with ableton you can change it every quarter note, and it seems like many do, simply because of a lack of things to do.



to ward against complacency and boredom in my mixing, i tend to pick tracks that are exceedingly difficult to mix/match. it feels more worth it to me, though probably my audience couldnt give a shit

anyways i like to believe that the tension and release comes through

quote:

Originally posted by Zoso I too prefer to beat match manually. I like to think that I'm doing something while I'm fucking around behind the decks other than just picking the next track and pushing play. I just wondered how people felt about the issue given how easy it is now to have things done automatically now.

You do nothing else but beatmatch when you play

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Promo You do nothing else but beatmatch when you play

that's not entirely true - you can focus more on selection and layering



edit:

also, jesus poses, drugs, and networking

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Promo You do nothing else but beatmatch when you play

I bedroom DJ only, and, yes, really I'm just doing it for the sake of mixing tracks that I enjoy the most back to back in a fashion that I think makes sense and sounds good to my ears.

I'm not doing any sort of tricks. So, essentially, I am just beat matching, I suppose.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT Good music matters, absolutely nothing else does.

I disagree, I enjoy being impressed by skill as well as the beats. Get the two right and I'm bouncing.

Anyone can be a digital DJ in about 30 minutes. Those with real talent and practice with their instrument (be it CDJs or vinyl) are the one's that are actually DJing. Although if you DJ and use Ableton or what have you to spice things up, then more power to you (i.e. PvD). I don't think there are any big DJs that rely on only laptops for their sets.

There are MANY factors that go into making a good mix and overall set. There are few if ANY of those that are even touched with digital mixing. I play guitar as well as DJ and produce and for me I see it like this: You can play a real guitar (cdjs & vinyl) or you can play Guitar Hero (digital mixing).

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister I disagree, I enjoy being impressed by skill as well as the beats. Get the two right and I'm bouncing.

'skill' is a very relative thing

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister I disagree, I enjoy being impressed by skill as well as the beats. Get the two right and I'm bouncing.

It takes skill to play good music, regardless of what an individual is using to create it.

quote:

Originally posted by Zoso I honestly thought you'd be a little more critical than that, Rob. Not trying to pick a fight, obviously, but I was under the impression that you weren't easily impressed with a "laptop" DJ. Perhaps I've misunderstood.

I'm impressed by artists who are impressive, not by the technology or medium they use.

Does that mean my standards for what qualifies as good are the same regardless of what medium an individual is using? Absolutely not, that's apples & oranges.

I just happen to think that levying any praise or criticism on anyone solely because of the format they use is ludicrous.

what rjt said

quote:

Originally posted by RJT I'm impressed by artists who are impressive, not by the technology or medium they use. Does that mean my standards for what qualifies as good are the same regardless of what medium an individual is using? Absolutely not, that's apples & oranges. I just happen to think that levying any praise or criticism on anyone solely because of the format they use is ludicrous.

Gotcha. Well spoken.

I use an Xponent and my MBP most of the time for house parties. However I rarely use the auto beat-match function of Traktor. Good music and fun are the only things that matter though. I could care less what one does as long as he/she has good taste in music.

I also just want to add that I think part of the problem of the whole medium debate is that it seems many folks want to assert that the same standards for what qualifies as "good" dj'ing across the board between mediums (digital, CD, vinyl).

The way I look at it is that each of those formats (and any number of others) warrant praise and/or criticism for very different things. If you see someone flawlessly beatmaching and phrasing mixes perfectly on vinyl (or to some extent, CD's), it's a far sight more impressive than those same things are when watching a laptop DJ.

By the same token, however, sometimes guys on laptops can do things (dropping various samples, mashups, etc.) that either wouldn't work on vinyl or CD's, or might just wind up sounding so jumbled working from those mediums that you'd ask yourself "Why are they even bothering?"

....

Side note/thought experiment for you guys: I realize this isn't possible, but imagine you heard the best set you've ever heard of your life (with no qualifiers other than "the best set I have ever heard") - and imagine hearing it as a promo, live set download, or radio show where you couldn't see it being put together or the format, and then imagine hearing that same set out at a party or club in full view of exactly what the DJ is doing.

Would that set lose any quality if you found out it had been done on a laptop? Or would it remain an awesome set?



For me, if your answer is "My mind would change because of the format", that just seems a bit ridiculous.

I think there is an important point to make with the way in which the gear is used.

I think what is being missed in this thread is the fact that the vast majority of people who use autobeatmatching tools e.g. Ableton etc. well, have some pretty high class skills both in terms of DJing (The traditional way) and in terms of productions so have a very different ear for music than someone who has just picked up Ableton and learnt how to warp beats.

As a DJ, I like to be impressed by other DJs, I like to see hardworking talented people behind the decks, regardless of their format.

I have a hard time accepting someone who is just stringing tunes together without thought whatever medium. And the only thing that separates the two mediums in this case is that one of the crap DJs will have perfect beatmatching, but both track selections will be arse and will most likely clash harmonically (Yes I know this doeesn�t upset all of you). A bad DJ is a bad DJ.

On a personal level however I still have yet to be impressed by the autobeatmatchers... and if anything the only thing it�s really done for DJing in my opinion is take the fun out of it.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Side note/thought experiment for you guys: I realize this isn't possible, but imagine you heard the best set you've ever heard of your life (with no qualifiers other than "the best set I have ever heard") - and imagine hearing it as a promo, live set download, or radio show where you couldn't see it being put together or the format, and then imagine hearing that same set out at a party or club in full view of exactly what the DJ is doing. Would that set lose any quality if you found out it had been done on a laptop? Or would it remain an awesome set?

Well...to be sure if its the best set I've heard there's prob a lot more going on then simply what is being used for putting the set together. It could be done on a Ipod mixer from Numark for all I care.

This seems darkly similar to the "DJs aren't musicians babblespeak" ...DJs aren't TRUE DJs because they don't use vinyl or whatever.

If its the best set I've ever heard:

A)There's shit I've never heard before and probably never will ever again
B)Bringing in a classic at the right time
C)It flows like a river
D)There's some new stuff that's blows your socks off
E)The beginning is EPIC
F)The ending makes you suicidal because its over. And its over. No encores.
G)I don't need drugs to get high while listening to it.
H)I dance my ass off.
I)Its long as hell

And it pretty much becomes that highly regarded, classic set that gets bounced around for a while...never losing its place on my ipod.

So it pretty much supports the argument.

BUT performance wise...live etc. a laptop seems honestly lame.
If its live prod, sure.

To be perfectly honest I don't pay attention to the DJ at all at clubs.

quote:

Originally posted by jpgrdnr To be perfectly honest I don't pay attention to the DJ at all at clubs.

Good man, but then it also goes to say that format should never matter to you, period.

as long as the music is good and they're not using mixed in key, I think it's fine.
Having a program beatmatching for you is one thing, but practically picking the records for you as well?..... fuck no.

Perfect beatmatching doesn't constitute a great DJ. There are many other factors.

I agree with most of the things people have said above.

And while i personally think track selection makes the biggest difference, poor beat matching can temporarily distract you from the great mix.

This is obviously just temporary but it's great when the track selection and beat matching is spot on.

Otherwise you're there going ahhhhh the transition is off but once the new song is in you forget about the crappy transition because (hopefully) the new song is something special.

That is all

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