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Where can I download the 'Official EDM Production Rulebook'?

Apparently, I never received a copy, or maybe I did, but accidentally used it as toilet paper.

What is up with people on this and other songs forums telling other people what they 'need' to do with their productions? I find myself getting more and more annoyed at critiques of songs that have statements such as:

-You need to turn up the kick drum

-You need to add more reverb to the vocals

-You need to sidechain the bass

-You need to 'fix' the pads (Why? Are they broke? Procreating uncontrollably?)

Offering suggestions is one thing, but for someone to put their opinions in such finite terms is a little arrogant, dontcha think?

Am I the only that gets annoyed by this?



Note: this is not aimed at anyone in particular, nor is it in response to any comments about any of my songs (which are perfect, btw ). Just a general observation.

people can say stuff like "ya might wanna try...." before their suggestions and it comes out a lot less arrogant...

everyone wants everyone else to do things just like them...

everyone these days thinks that side-chaining is the holy grail of a fat bottom end... blah blah blah...

david

Re: Where can I download the 'Official EDM Production Rulebook'?

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Am I the only that gets annoyed by this?

Yes. You're the only one that didn't get a copy of the rulebook. That's why.

you need to get the rulebook - now!

Well, it depends on what stage of their development the person who's receiving the feedback is at. If they're sufficiently far along, they'll be able to see these critiques for what they're worth.

If one person tells them to turn up their kick drum, fine. If on their next song, a different person tells them to turn up their kick drum, that's interesting. If it keeps coming up, that's something to focus on.

If it's just an isolated comment on a forum, I don't think people would go "this person obviously knows for sure, I'm definitely going to turn up my kick drum".

Forums are filled with misinformation, I'd hope anyone posting their songs would be aware of this, be aware of the sound they're aiming for, and not just act blindly.

You cretin, you should know that you always need to turn up the kick, sidechain the bassline, and add more reverb. And if you've already done it then you need to add more kick and sidechain and reverb. In fact, a good track should be nothing but a kick and a sidechained bass and vocals drowned in reverb. What else do you need?

Actually, hell, forget the vocals and reverb, just make your track 7 layers of kicks and sidechained basses.

Shh Diginut...don't tell the newbies all our secrets...

I figure if I talk about nonsense like "developing one's own artistic voice" then that'll throw them off the track for a while, while we're busy making tracks with only kicks and basses, with everything sidechaining everything else, and raking in the megabucks.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut You cretin, you should know that you always need to turn up the kick, sidechain the bassline, and add more reverb. And if you've already done it then you need to add more kick and sidechain and reverb. In fact, a good track should be nothing but a kick and a sidechained bass and vocals drowned in reverb. What else do you need? Actually, hell, forget the vocals and reverb, just make your track 7 layers of kicks and sidechained basses.

More analog, duh!

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery More analog, duh!

And Sidechain that bad motha--shut yo mouth!

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut You cretin, you should know that you always need to turn up the kick, sidechain the bassline, and add more reverb. And if you've already done it then you need to add more kick and sidechain and reverb. In fact, a good track should be nothing but a kick and a sidechained bass and vocals drowned in reverb. What else do you need? Actually, hell, forget the vocals and reverb, just make your track 7 layers of kicks and sidechained basses.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Actually, hell, forget the vocals and reverb, just make your track 7 layers of kicks and sidechained basses.

...and become a mnml superstar! Don't forget the coke.

Re: Where can I download the 'Official EDM Production Rulebook'?

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Apparently, I never received a copy, or maybe I did, but accidentally used it as toilet paper. What is up with people on this and other songs forums telling other people what they 'need' to do with their productions? I find myself getting more and more annoyed at critiques of songs that have statements such as: -You need to turn up the kick drum -You need to add more reverb to the vocals -You need to sidechain the bass -You need to 'fix' the pads (Why? Are they broke? Procreating uncontrollably?) Offering suggestions is one thing, but for someone to put their opinions in such finite terms is a little arrogant, dontcha think? Am I the only that gets annoyed by this? Note: this is not aimed at anyone in particular, nor is it in response to any comments about any of my songs (which are perfect, btw ). Just a general observation.

Whilst I understand your point, going by the examples you give, I don't fully agree. If a certain area of a track is wrong and needs to be fixed, then telling the producer what they must do is perfectly okay.

In the example of " You need to turn up the kick drum". If the kick is clearly too quiet and not due to any creative decision but obviously a fault in the mixing, then the kick does need to be turned up and there is nothing wrong in telling the artist that in certain terms.

I do agree that for anything that could be a creative thing, the artist should never be told what to do, but in areas that are clear technical or mixing errors then I don't see a problem with it.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Actually, hell, forget the vocals and reverb, just make your track 7 layers of kicks and sidechained basses.

I actually kinda wanna try that now. lol.

because when someone finally gets something right, they believe it's the way it should be done, therefore they send that message over to fellow producers who are having trouble/asking for advice on where to improve upon their

the best way to learn how to produce (imo) is by experimenting and fiddling around with things, instead of asking others for input on what they should do to improve a track, at least that's how i learned the bulk of what i know now.

i like when people ask for simple advice, like, 'tell me what you think' or 'how do you like the direction this pad or pattern is going', but without actually changing the way they layered the track to their liking in the first place, more so just trying it out and deciding whether it sounds good to them

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Actually, hell, forget the vocals and reverb, just make your track 7 layers of kicks and sidechained basses.

I for one welcome our new musical overlord, all hail kickstyle!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by david.michael I actually kinda wanna try that now. lol.

lol snap! didnt even see ur reply

Re: Re: Where can I download the 'Official EDM Production Rulebook'?

quote:

Originally posted by G-Con If a certain area of a track is wrong and needs to be fixed, then telling the producer what they must do is perfectly okay. ...the artist should never be told what to do, but in areas that are clear technical or mixing errors then I don't see a problem with it.

This is my point exactly. There is no right or wrong in producing or mixing, just as there is no right or wrong level or sound for your kick drum, snare drum, bass, pad, etc. These are all subjective calls and are entirely up to the artist's/producer's creativity. Just because you (not referring to you, G-Con, ), as a listener and producer, would prefer a different sound, a different balance of instruments, or a different processing technique does NOT make it technically or artistically wrong when someone does it differently. If there was only one 'proper' way to mix, or a narrowly defined set of standards by which to judge a production, music would get boring pretty quickly.

The problem here seems to be that many of the people making these types of comments seem to assume that every producer is striving to sound exactly like Paul van Tiestau5foldDyk & Beyond, or whatever their particular image of EDM perfection happens to be. That's not always the case - sometimes people are looking to break the mold, go for a new sound, go for an old-skool sound, slow things down, speed things up, etc. That's why I get so annoyed when someone posts a trance track that grooves with a totally chill vibe and some douchebag chimes in with the old "needs more drive" cliche.

Re: Re: Re: Where can I download the 'Official EDM Production Rulebook'?

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik This is my point exactly. There is no right or wrong in producing or mixing, just as there is no right or wrong level or sound for your kick drum, snare drum, bass, pad, etc. These are all subjective calls and are entirely up to the artist's/producer's creativity. Just because you (not referring to you, G-Con, ), as a listener and producer, would prefer a different sound, a different balance of instruments, or a different processing technique does NOT make it technically or artistically wrong when someone does it differently. If there was only one 'proper' way to mix, or a narrowly defined set of standards by which to judge a production, music would get boring pretty quickly

I disagree.

I think its the relationship and balance between all the elements that counts, when a for instance a pad is very loud in the mix, it creates an unbalance which i can be heard by the majority of people. (except the producer that made it)

Very rarely, i would say, that you ever hear something unbalanced in a track that is released, even if the producer manages to create and unique snare or kick drum.. it will in most cases be on spot with the rest.

Re: Re: Re: Where can I download the 'Official EDM Production Rulebook'?

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik This is my point exactly. There is no right or wrong in producing or mixing, just as there is no right or wrong level or sound for your kick drum, snare drum, bass, pad, etc. These are all subjective calls and are entirely up to the artist's/producer's creativity. Just because you (not referring to you, G-Con, ), as a listener and producer, would prefer a different sound, a different balance of instruments, or a different processing technique does NOT make it technically or artistically wrong when someone does it differently. If there was only one 'proper' way to mix, or a narrowly defined set of standards by which to judge a production, music would get boring pretty quickly. The problem here seems to be that many of the people making these types of comments seem to assume that every producer is striving to sound exactly like Paul van Tiestau5foldDyk & Beyond, or whatever their particular image of EDM perfection happens to be. That's not always the case - sometimes people are looking to break the mold, go for a new sound, go for an old-skool sound, slow things down, speed things up, etc. That's why I get so annoyed when someone posts a trance track that grooves with a totally chill vibe and some douchebag chimes in with the old "needs more drive" cliche.

Yes, but if something sounds wrong it is wrong. If the kick is clearly distorting the entire mix or if it sounds like it's coming from 50 feet under the ground you can't just shrug it off and say "oh, that's just him expressing himself".

Breaking the mould and expressing yourself is fine (and I very much encourage everyone to do so). Breaking everyone's speakers, however, isn't. Everything is not subjective, as noble as the thought may be.

Cryophonik, yes, it's a good point. It's up to both the person giving and the person receiving the feedback.

When I provide feedback, I'll make sure I explain (numerous times) that I'm basing my opinions on my own viewpoint, stating my preferences, but ultimately the responsibility for how to use my input rests with the person who's song it is. They can take the feedback and decide whether to act on it or reject it. Fortunately, I appreciate many types of trance...not everything has to be driving, anthemic, all that stuff. Not every kick needs to be super loud/ hard hitting. It's all about appropriateness to the song.

As I stated before, I sincerely hope that people offering songs for review/ criticism understand that everyone has a personal viewpoint and that the feedback can be accepted or rejected. If someone tells them their song needs more drive but that wasn't their intention, I'd hope they simply say "that wasn't the feel I was going for here" and let it go. If they consistently, from a number of different people, get the same feedback, that for example their kick drum is too quiet, then how they process that depends on their level of development. If they're creating amazing sounding music with quiet kick drums, they will likely have made a conscious decision in this regard, and they can disregard people's opinions since those opinions are based on a more "usual" sound.

However, if someone isn't as far along in their development and hasn't learned how to gauge appropriate levels yet, I don't think it would help them if no-one commented on how quiet their kick is. If everyone said "well, it's all equally valid, it's all about artistic decisions, good luck with that - but I won't listen to any more of your songs...good luck with your artistic decisions", the person wouldn't develop that quickly. It takes a while to learn how to put sound together in a pleasing way - yes, one is making artistic decisions from the start, but one also makes a lot of mistakes at the start, which can be corrected via receiving criticism.

OK, apparently I need to clarify. I'm not talking about the one person in every thousand who failed to check his mix before posting and somehow mistakenly cranked his kick drum up to +6dB or down to -30dB. I'm talking about the everyday, run-of-the-mill comments that you can see by perusing the Songs forum of any EDM forum, where better-than-average mixes can receive the exact same kind of comments that I'm referring to.

quote:

Originally posted by derail Cryophonik, yes, it's a good point. It's up to both the person giving and the person receiving the feedback. When I provide feedback, I'll make sure I explain (numerous times) that I'm basing my opinions on my own viewpoint, stating my preferences, but ultimately the responsibility for how to use my input rests with the person who's song it is. They can take the feedback and decide whether to act on it or reject it. Fortunately, I appreciate many types of trance...not everything has to be driving, anthemic, all that stuff. Not every kick needs to be super loud/ hard hitting. It's all about appropriateness to the song. As I stated before, I sincerely hope that people offering songs for review/ criticism understand that everyone has a personal viewpoint and that the feedback can be accepted or rejected. If someone tells them their song needs more drive but that wasn't their intention, I'd hope they simply say "that wasn't the feel I was going for here" and let it go. If they consistently, from a number of different people, get the same feedback, that for example their kick drum is too quiet, then how they process that depends on their level of development. If they're creating amazing sounding music with quiet kick drums, they will likely have made a conscious decision in this regard, and they can disregard people's opinions since those opinions are based on a more "usual" sound. However, if someone isn't as far along in their development and hasn't learned how to gauge appropriate levels yet, I don't think it would help them if no-one commented on how quiet their kick is. If everyone said "well, it's all equally valid, it's all about artistic decisions, good luck with that - but I won't listen to any more of your songs...good luck with your artistic decisions", the person wouldn't develop that quickly. It takes a while to learn how to put sound together in a pleasing way - yes, one is making artistic decisions from the start, but one also makes a lot of mistakes at the start, which can be corrected via receiving criticism.

Nicely put derail!

Yeah, it can take a ridiculous amount of time before one learn to be objective on their own work.

Its something almost unexplainable behind the psychology of not being able to hear your own mistakes, because YOU made the track.

Just making something remotely similar to an element of one of your favorite tracks can be blindly deceiving and totally satisfactory.

Making you think that you even made something really great, while its really just a major improvement of what u previously made, but still far off.

quote:

Originally posted by flutlicht junky I for one welcome our new musical overlord, all hail kickstyle!!!!

Waiting for "Lord of Kick" to join forum.





If a snare is hurting my ears, I'll say so. If I think a pad is a bit quiet, I'll say something along the lines of "I'd like to hear that pad a bit more". I think it's a bit out of line to say things like "you should change the melody, It sucks"

So yeah, I agree.

if ur posting here to get feedback anyway ur probably already pretty unsure about yourself and might need or think u need some directions, then its up to the person looking for directions/feedback to qualitycheck the persons leaving comments, its quite easy to check out whether or not someones comments are worth anything by checking his tracks. if u dont like another ones productions you should probably reconsider taking advice from him.
but ofcourse u have obvious things like mr. mystery said on distortion, extremely bad balance between lows/highs, bad stereo panning etc, that will probably come out clear in your threads caus everyone will say the same, then u should obviously take it to consideration. this can also relate to your monitoring and not that your not hearing the problems.
i remember i learned quickly whos comments to take into consideration and who just thought they knew everything. this comes to everything in life, stick up for yourself and believe yourself enough but also be humble enough to take good advices on the way.
i hate to see people making awesome music not liking it themself "no im not good", and "i could fix that better". stuff like that is realy sad

quote:

Originally posted by 3F05Q I think it's a bit out of line to say things like "you should change the melody, It sucks"

I disagree with that.

I think that the obsession over the technical aspects of a track and the unwillingness to criticize uninspired or just plain bad melody writing or arrangement in a track is one reason why there's so much boring and derivative crap around these days.

You can have a song that's perfectly EQ'd and compressed, nice and loud and shiny with plenty of effects, and it might "sound great in a club," but if there's no interesting musical idea or feeling in it, then it's ultimately just forgettable dross.

I don't think people should hesitate to tell someone that they've written a boring track on the level of composition -- or to tell them when they've written a great one on the level of composition even if the mixing's not terribly professional.

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