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Trying to finish up my first track, need help with length and timings...

Hi Guys,

I'm new to the producing scene and I don't that many proper terms yet.

I'm finishing up my track in Ableton, I have a good idea of what I want and where I want it. I've been djing for 4 years and I noticed every track has a certain time that the elements of the track kick in.

Example:
Avg track is 6-7 mins long
1st minute is usually kick+snare
2 minutes - 5 minutes
-Usually vocals/synths/buildups/bassline
-Then there are usually 2 big build-ups
The last buildup usually leads into the outro of the song usually ends before the last 2 minutes of the song, giving time to the DJ to bring other tracks in...

I'm trying to construct my track into this order, the usual order. I really want to be precise in my recording time and have a proper intro and outro.

If there's a video or some sort of tutorial, or some feature in Ableton, please feel free to share

Re: Trying to finish up my first track, need help with length and timings...

quote:

Originally posted by Dilmeet Hi Guys, I'm new to the producing scene and I don't that many proper terms yet. I'm finishing up my track in Ableton, I have a good idea of what I want and where I want it. I've been djing for 4 years and I noticed every track has a certain time that the elements of the track kick in. Example: Avg track is 6-7 mins long 1st minute is usually kick+snare 2 minutes - 5 minutes -Usually vocals/synths/buildups/bassline -Then there are usually 2 big build-ups The last buildup usually leads into the outro of the song usually ends before the last 2 minutes of the song, giving time to the DJ to bring other tracks in... I'm trying to construct my track into this order, the usual order. I really want to be precise in my recording time and have a proper intro and outro. If there's a video or some sort of tutorial, or some feature in Ableton, please feel free to share

Hate to say it but the sort of formulation you are looking is very bad both for music itself and you creatively. Yes, DJ's like tracks with nice intro's and outro's but don't change your track to make it fit in to a particular mould.

The best advice I can give is that you have to find what works for YOUR track - I've heard great tracks where the bassline and melody (albeit in a simple form that then grows) are the first thing that you hear. There is also no set formula for breakdowns, techy tracks often have no large breakdowns, just several small(a couple of bars) beatless parts before kicking in again.

I wouldn't worry about what the DJ has to do to mix it in and out - DJ's will find a way to mix the most difficult of tracks as long as the track works in it's own right. This IMHO, is why someone will buy , enjoy or listen to a track, because the track is a good track, all things considered, and not because it's easy to mix with.

In fact there's several tracks where I (think) can tell the producer has made the track one way, then added 16 bars at the beginning of just kick and simple percussion, and the same at the end for an outro. It sounds so amatuer and uneccesary, if anything detracting from their creation.

Re: Re: Trying to finish up my first track, need help with length and timings...

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Hate to say it but the sort of formulation you are looking is very bad both for music itself and you creatively. Yes, DJ's like tracks with nice intro's and outro's but don't change your track to make it fit in to a particular mould. The best advice I can give is that you have to find what works for YOUR track - I've heard great tracks where the bassline and melody (albeit in a simple form that then grows) are the first thing that you hear. There is also no set formula for breakdowns, techy tracks often have no large breakdowns, just several small(a couple of bars) beatless parts before kicking in again. I wouldn't worry about what the DJ has to do to mix it in and out - DJ's will find a way to mix the most difficult of tracks as long as the track works in it's own right. This IMHO, is why someone will buy , enjoy or listen to a track, because the track is a good track, all things considered, and not because it's easy to mix with.

Thanks for the quick response.

My track is about 6-7 minutes long, but I just want to organize it well. The main highlight of my track is in the middle, 2min - 5

you really should just do whatever you feel the more you copy someone the more your track sounds too typical

if you must sound typical then see a video on youtube



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...+trance+youtube


if that does not work i think reason makes a video how to produce or something
.

but like i said its more interesting to do your own thing ,and no video is going to tel lyou how to mix just use your gut feeling.

if you go to soundclick and just listen to a few youll see that everyone has there own style and none of them stick to your template.

quote:

Originally posted by crazedonee you really should just do whatever you feel the more you copy someone the more your track sounds too typical if you must sound typical then see a video on youtube http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...+trance+youtube if that does not work i think reason makes a video how to produce or something . but like i said its more interesting to do your own thing ,and no video is going to tel lyou how to mix just use your gut feeling. if you go to soundclick and just listen to a few youll see that everyone has there own style and none of them stick to your template.

Thanks.

However I don't think you guys are understanding me.

It's probably a misunderstanding of the way I'm explaining it. It's a bit hard for me to explain because I'm fairly new to this.

The way tracks are constructed is obviously in a mathamatical order (I'm sure there's a term for it). For instance, when I dj I can hear (used to tap my feet) the kick & snare push 8 times before I let the next track drop. The waveforms in serato all look like they are in some chronological order, it's not coincidental.

This is really something you should "feel" yourself.

lol @ math

unless you're autechre

stop thinking so much, listen to the track, and feel if it really, really moves you

if it doesn't really, really move you when you play it, it sure as hell ain't gonna really, really move anyone else

seen?

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno lol @ math unless you're autechre stop thinking so much, listen to the track, and feel if it really, really moves you if it doesn't really, really move you when you play it, it sure as hell ain't gonna really, really move anyone else seen?

Yah maybe you're right. I'm thinking to much. If I drop the bassline and synths at the right time, w/some filtering, I start jumping on my chair, seriously lol

quote:

Originally posted by Dilmeet when I dj I can hear (used to tap my feet) the kick & snare push 8 times before I let the next track drop. The waveforms in serato all look like they are in some chronological order, it's not coincidental.

Most trance is organised into sets of even bars - 4, 8, 16. As a really basic example, at the start of each 8 bar loop you may have a crash cymbal to introduce the next sequence. If you decide to get creative with this aspect, and just put crash cymbals at the start of random bars, people are going to be turned off the song.

So yes, be as creative as possible, but also have a good understanding of musical structure and why it works. You'll be able to work out the structure of songs yourself very easily. Just take a few of your favourite songs, sit down with a pen and paper and write down what's happening every 4 (or 8) bars - when an instrument comes in or drops out, where the buildups are, filter movements and so on.

quote:

Originally posted by derail Most trance is organised into sets of even bars - 4, 8, 16. As a really basic example, at the start of each 8 bar loop you may have a crash cymbal to introduce the next sequence. If you decide to get creative with this aspect, and just put crash cymbals at the start of random bars, people are going to be turned off the song. So yes, be as creative as possible, but also have a good understanding of musical structure and why it works. You'll be able to work out the structure of songs yourself very easily. Just take a few of your favourite songs, sit down with a pen and paper and write down what's happening every 4 (or 8) bars - when an instrument comes in or drops out, where the buildups are, filter movements and so on.

YES, thank you so much!

Exactly, I've been djing for quite some time and I knew that A-class producers put some sort of structure in their tracks. Who says you can't be creative w/o structure. Thanks.

This is the answer I was looking for. And thanks for the pen idea, very simple and easy.

Do you know if ableton has a feature where you are recording you can simultaneously see what bar you are approaching?

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Dilmeet If I drop the bassline and synths at the right time, w/some filtering, I start jumping on my chair, seriously lol

then u have a winner
u play for yourself right?

quote:

Originally posted by Dilmeet Do you know if ableton has a feature where you are recording you can simultaneously see what bar you are approaching?

I'm not sure if this is what you are asking, but Ableton has the current bar number listed at the top of the grid in the arrange window.

You can also import the WAV of a track yo like and see which bars everything drops at if you want to get a general idea of track structure.

Like others have said, use this as a guideline only. What's correct is what feels right for your particular track.

quote:

Originally posted by palm then u have a winner u play for yourself right?

all day.

Structure

The previous poster is correct telling you about bars etc. What helped me when i first started and im still learning is this#

Trance masterclass computer music#

http://www.computermusic.co.uk/page...m_tutorial_pdfs


Its important to note that although the creative process can take many forms and should not have rules. Their are some rules you should not break or your track will sound odd. Try for instance dropping a melody in on the 15th bar, Or a cymbal on the off beat trance arrangement is simple and several people have commented on trying not to be typical.

I think that the structure as long as its not crazy should be a little typical. how annoying is it when a song builds and builds and your on the dancefloor and your ready to have it then instead of dropping the producer has put an extra few bars in. This i think lowers the emotion of a song

If you really want the typical way to make trance. A good starting point is the dance music manual

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dance-Music...s/dp/0240519159

500 ish pages of everything you need to know in easy to understand language.

Hope this helps

@Dilmeet:

If you are searching for some structure in you track, this is something I did:
Import someone else's track into your sequencers and listen to at what bar it does what, it really helped me.
And I didn't copy it exactly, but it helped me completing my arrangements.

And I don't think there are rules, if creativity is bounded by rules, it's not creative any more. As said before, try to do what's best for your track.

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