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How do you make a loop not sound like its looping? =]

Maybe a crazy question.
I play a lot with variations, quantizing, shuffles, delays and I can't figure out whether its because I KNOW its looping that it sounds like its looping or if anyone has any special tips to make a loop sound more like its driving and moving forward rather than going in circles?

I was watching a couple computer music vids where they offset the loop like 20ms ahead of the kick drum but it always friggn sounds like its going in circles.
Is this a head game because it always seems when I hear another persons track, and can't see how it was designed, that it seems less like its going in circles. I'm thinking about doing like 8 or even 16 bar percussion variations but that seems a little extreme.

You may try throwing it in ReCycle. Cut it up and throw in a few variations, in addition to the effects/processing.

Because if you use a 1, or 2 bar loop for 8 bars, it IS looping.

You can get around that pretty easily by variying other percussive elements such as snares and hats.

Yeh maybe this is the point I'm trying to make.

When you ADD variations, in a way they mark that section of the loop (when it variates) so when it loops and comes back to that point it makes it sound even more like its looping then moving forward.

Maybe a stupid thought but sometimes I think less variation = more drive. Or less of a certain type of variation at least.

Just trying to get a discussion going.

Slow, gentle LFO's applied to amplitude or filter cutoff can add some subtle variation. You can also use your glitch plugin of choice mixed with the dry signal so that the glitching is just barely noticeable. dblue Glitch has a wet dry knob built in. Load it up, set it to 15-25% or so and forget it. Varying your arrangement helps as well. You don't have to write a 16-bar percussion loop, but you can write two or three different 4- or 8-bar loops and then just swap one out for the other when one starts to get boring. Also, just playing new sounds against your existing backdrop will provide a novel context for the looping components that may reinvigorate them.

One thing i learned recently mate is that motifs etc can carry a loop by having a conversation with each other. A loop gets boring when it is just asking a question with no answer.

Think of a this

Baa baa black sheep (Question)

Have you any wool (second part of question)

yes sir yes sir (first answer)

3 bags full (second part of answer)

before you take the piss this is in a trance production book and my friends tutor at music college said it as well. Still wish i had a better example than that LOL

a shorter loop is the answer imo, max 4 kicks (1bar), in most techno u have 2 only kicks (1/2 bar) i think.
example above is also extremely correct if u get it. u kinda get that relief when the answer comes, but u can delay it pretty long.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c One thing i learned recently mate is that motifs etc can carry a loop by having a conversation with each other. A loop gets boring when it is just asking a question with no answer. Think of a this Baa baa black sheep (Question) Have you any wool (second part of question) yes sir yes sir (first answer) 3 bags full (second part of answer) before you take the piss this is in a trance production book and my friends tutor at music college said it as well. Still wish i had a better example than that LOL

I do understand what you're saying.
But I'm trying to think of a way in my head to convert it to sounds.

I guess just 2 things that contrast with each other but at the same time compliment each other too? I do like this analogy because its different & I feel like I may have approached some tracks this way in the past w/out realizing thats what I was really doing.

quote:

Originally posted by palm a shorter loop is the answer imo, max 4 kicks (1bar), in most techno u have 2 only kicks (1/2 bar) i think. example above is also extremely correct if u get it. u kinda get that relief when the answer comes, but u can delay it pretty long.

Yeh I thought of "Jet Lag" by DJ Kim when I read this. The hat shuffles (I think) are only a 1 bar loop buts its so friggn hypnotizing just to hear.
Theres always like this tension/relief dynamic going on with the hats.

Guess thats another way to phrase it, a question is like the tension part and the answer is like the relief part. I think thats actually what gives all music its drive. I understand a build up and break down, but when you shrink it into 1 bar, into something like a percussion loop, its seems like theres just sooo much refining to do to get it to sound right.

I use Ableton Live and one thing that always helps me is the delay compensation. I find that I really get that tension and make it way tighter when I adjust the compensation. I have only recently been using this and I feel that it has been one of my greatest improvements to my beats. I don't know what DAW you are using or if it has this setting but, if it does you should try it if you have not.

Re: How do you make a loop not sound like its looping? =]

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox How do you make a loop not sound like its looping? =]

Creativity.

quote:

Originally posted by MaxC Slow, gentle LFO's applied to amplitude or filter cutoff can add some subtle variation. You can also use your glitch plugin of choice mixed with the dry signal so that the glitching is just barely noticeable. dblue Glitch has a wet dry knob built in. Load it up, set it to 15-25% or so and forget it. Varying your arrangement helps as well. You don't have to write a 16-bar percussion loop, but you can write two or three different 4- or 8-bar loops and then just swap one out for the other when one starts to get boring. Also, just playing new sounds against your existing backdrop will provide a novel context for the looping components that may reinvigorate them.

Very good advice there.

Yeh I just got glitch yesterday and am astonished at how quickly it can dress up some loops.
I had a simple 8 hit (1 bar) closed hat loop and after running it through glitch it sounded like I had about 5 or 6 different hats going at once. Really cool little machine, thanks whoever recommended it!

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox Yeh I just got glitch yesterday and am astonished at how quickly it can dress up some loops. I had a simple 8 hit (1 bar) closed hat loop and after running it through glitch it sounded like I had about 5 or 6 different hats going at once. Really cool little machine, thanks whoever recommended it!

Whats glitch? I must have one i love glitch samples, is it a glitch geared synth or an effect or what?

Glitch is a very nice freeware VST plugin:

http://illformed.org/glitch/

I like it when it's repeating

Can you post an example of a loop you've made?

When making a track dont think of any sized loop, make loops and whatever length you want and combine e.g: 1 bar hihat shuffle, 4 bar sidestick loop, 8 bar minimal loop etc and layer them up, each with variations thrown in.

Slinky wooooo

One little tip that i can give if using ableton (though it can prob be done in other hosts as well.)

Using clip envelopes, automate parameters subtlely to give variation. But unlink the loop brace for the automated parameter and set it at an uneven size. Like one bar and a 16th. This means that in a 1 bar loop, the automated parameter will go round and round for ages without ever being in sync with the actual loop.

I've explained this really badly, hope you understand

quote:

Originally posted by Cetra� Glitch is a very nice freeware VST plugin: http://illformed.org/glitch/

OMG glitch what a plugin

See I just want to add as much as some people may read the title of this thread and think its a newbie question, it still stimulates people to think and theres a lot of really cool little tips in here.

For anyone who thinks I post a lot of "useless" threads I just wanted to say that.

And for everyone else who had some cool things to add thanks!! I appreciate it.

This thread gave me Glitch.....I LOVE GLITCH

I wanted to discuss something which i may have triggered together with Robbie rox and probably many before us. Robbie roxs last post made me think.

Already several times I have been told off or worse insulted for asking questions. I see people are getting vexed already by some of robbies posts. Im not a complete newbie to music and understand the basics but sometimes reading a book or experimentation can only go so far. Sometimes someone further along the learning curve breaking it down for you can flip a switch in your mind and forever sort out something you have been trying to learn for a year in my case compression. Due to me asking it promted kit to post a very helpful tutorial.

Us forum noobs do try to learn from manuals and books but this forum seems to be best source so far!

I myself have seen posts I can help with and in posting it made me go back over what I knew but had stopped using etc.

So what is the big deal with people who maybe don�t know as much as you asking a question you do not have to answer on a forum designed to share production knowledge?

SO

Newbie questions Vs Experienced producers getting annoyed share your thoughts!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c I wanted to discuss something which i may have triggered together with Robbie rox and probably many before us. Robbie roxs last post made me think. Already several times I have been told off or worse insulted for asking questions. I see people are getting vexed already by some of robbies posts. Im not a complete newbie to music and understand the basics but sometimes reading a book or experimentation can only go so far. Sometimes someone further along the learning curve breaking it down for you can flip a switch in your mind and forever sort out something you have been trying to learn for a year in my case compression. Due to me asking it promted kit to post a very helpful tutorial. Us forum noobs do try to learn from manuals and books but this forum seems to be best source so far! I myself have seen posts I can help with and in posting it made me go back over what I knew but had stopped using etc. So what is the big deal with people who maybe don�t know as much as you asking a question you do not have to answer on a forum designed to share production knowledge? SO Newbie questions Vs Experienced producers getting annoyed share your thoughts!!!!

My thought is that this should be a new thread as it is entirely unrelated to the thread, but as a suggestion, I wouldn't bother actually making it a new thread.

It's not how much you know - it's how you approach things. Just like any other "social" interaction, there will be reputations, wording, attitude, experience, interpretation, group dynamics, and other factors that determine how people are likely to respond. And not everyone will get along. It's life.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c One thing i learned recently mate is that motifs etc can carry a loop by having a conversation with each other. A loop gets boring when it is just asking a question with no answer. Think of a this Baa baa black sheep (Question) Have you any wool (second part of question) yes sir yes sir (first answer) 3 bags full (second part of answer) before you take the piss this is in a trance production book and my friends tutor at music college said it as well. Still wish i had a better example than that LOL

Shave and a haircut........

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