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Where to set LED's

Hi everyone.

I've just seen a post on a DJ help video website where the DJ was chastised for having the LED's in the red when mixing - it was a DJM600 - and only set at +4dB (which is still in the red) rather than peaking to +12.

I do the same, figuring the 8dB 'headroom' as he calls it is enough to catch any sharp transients without causing distortion - but I wondered what the actual parameters are for setting the mixer properly.

I've got the output from the mixer set to the amp so it doesn't peak, and I've got the output to the inputon the computer so it doesn't peak/distort - so surely that's fine? Or if you have the input level on the DJM too high - or the output level too high (even with the screw on the back turned down) - does this create internal distortion?

I'd think no, as my mixes sound ok (apart from the mixing, lol) but I was just wondering what the general concensus was on where to set LED's.

I guess there's maybe a difference between recording and live settings? I only say that as some of the clubs I've been to and looked into the booth, the LED's never shift out of maximum, let alone get INTO the red!!

Any thoughts?

Slojo

I always set them at 0dB when i'm recording or mixing at home.

In a club, it's often a little harder to do, but i definately make sure i stay out of the red. Just a security measure, in case i do blow up some speakers or something...

And i do think - depending on the soundsystem - playing at 0dB makes a difference in sound quality.

The 8dB of headroom on the DJM600 (or any mixer for that matter, although the amount of headroom does vary) basically means that you can go up to 8dB over the standard 0dB level without the output signal distorting.

This does, however, not necessarily guarantee that the signal won't distort on the INPUT of whatever you're feeding. This is usually an amp, which generally have a fair amount of input headroom, but it may be a computer soundcard input which often have no headroom at all - as soon as it hits 0dB the signal distorts. Most clubs set their limters to 0dB, so this also means that as soon as you go into the red very harsh compression will be applied which can sound pretty horrible very quickly.

As a result, I'd always recommend trying to stay out of the red no matter where you're playing - even if it doesn't make a difference on your home setup, it's good practice to get into so that you'll naturally avoid it when you play out or just on another setup.



Blowing up speakers shouldn't be an issue though, unless whoever set up the club system was a complete dingbat - if the amps are matched to the speaker power ratings and impedances, they shouldn't be able to blow them, particularly if there's a limiter before the amp (which there always should be in a professional setup).

Some mixers actually sound best when the levels are in the red, and I want to say the Pioneer is one of those. I can do that with my Rane Empath with no issues whatsoever. It also depends on the system it is running through and how it is set up.

Yeah, I run the 600 into one or two reds.

On a semi-related note, nothing makes me more frustrated as a DJ than when whomever is working the sound at a club demands you basically play all the way in the red. It happens at some of the largest clubs in Chicago, and just drives me crazy when I get up there, play in the green or one yellow, and they still want more sound coming out of the mixer. I can literally hear the monitors go from being crisp and clean to getting muddy as fuck, all in the name of volume.

I just wish clubs of the size I'm referring to ("mega" clubs) actually had both trained sound techs as well as the capacity to amplify the sound cleanly post-mixer.

Wishful thinking to be sure.

quote:

Originally posted by KiNeTiC ENeRgY Some mixers actually sound best when the levels are in the red, and I want to say the Pioneer is one of those. I can do that with my Rane Empath with no issues whatsoever. It also depends on the system it is running through and how it is set up.

Yeah a sound tech guy told me Pioneers sounds best at 1 red. So I always play around there.

Hmmm. Slojo, are you on about me? Not wanting to sound narcissistic I've just had a comment posted on my YouTube channel about this very thing. Apparantly, it 'hurt his soul' that I played in the red.

How sweet.

I have my system setup so that everything sounds great at +4db in the red. Any less and I find Pioneer mixers -the 600 anyway- has a poor signal to noise ratio through the breakdowns when recording. I just calibrate the entire system with 1Khz tone going into a channel at +4db - set the master output to +4db, and check that the PPM meters get an input of 6PPM. If I'm any more than 4dB, the PPM's start to light up like Christmas, so I know never to play louder.

In clubs - I ask what they do normally, and just follow suit. Bur you wouldn't believe the amount of places that have a 600 and DON'T know there's a screw on the back which limits/increases the mixer output level.

Who knows though, maybe all these years I've been doing it wrong. Never played in a club that kept it at 0 though, nearly all pushed 7db, and many crashed right over.

Anyway, those are my thoughts - are they wrong? Should I be a soul destroyer?

I'm always in the red with pioneers, usually a couple.

get a new mixer.

quote:

Originally posted by palm get a new mixer.

That's a bit uncalled for...

Yes for some reason the idiots at Pioneer decided that it would make better sense to run their DJM 600 mixers in the red (maybe because most DJs are idiots and run them hot anyway). Not that they sounded very good to begin with. Most decent to good mixers sound great at 0 all the way up to +10 or so. I usually try to keep my mixes peaking at 0 but sometimes I'll go up to 2 when something loud hits or I make a slight mistake mixing.

If you have a good amp going into the reds shouldn't be a big deal with the Pioneer mixers.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Blitzkrieg If you have a good amp going into the reds shouldn't be a big deal with the Pioneer mixers.

Nope, but unfortunately you can't always guarantee that and, as I said before if there's a limiter in the system at 0dB then 1 or 2 reds could be just too much, although with any luck the techies would know about the Pio sweet spot so would raise the limiter a bit to allow for it.

I would say "if in doubt, ask", but I can't remember the last time I played in a club who had a sound engineer anywhere to be seen, let alone onhand to ask questions... a lot of the smaller venues in the UK at least just simply don't have sound engineers (certainly not full-time ones) and just rely on the DJs to know what they're doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox Nope, but unfortunately you can't always guarantee that and, as I said before if there's a limiter in the system at 0dB then 1 or 2 reds could be just too much, although with any luck the techies would know about the Pio sweet spot so would raise the limiter a bit to allow for it. I would say "if in doubt, ask", but I can't remember the last time I played in a club who had a sound engineer anywhere to be seen, let alone onhand to ask questions... a lot of the smaller venues in the UK at least just simply don't have sound engineers (certainly not full-time ones) and just rely on the DJs to know what they're doing.

It's just as well, Myra and I were just talking tonight about how "Sound Engineer" is the biggest pisstake of a job title in all of clubland.

I've rarely encountered one who had half a clue.

So what about the limiter screw on the back of the mixe - where does that come in in terms of level output? you can whack into the red but have the output right down using that screw - or you can be at 0dB and be peaking right over if it's turned way up.

Or is there a nominal setting for it?

quote:

Originally posted by RJT It's just as well, Myra and I were just talking tonight about how "Sound Engineer" is the biggest pisstake of a job title in all of clubland. I've rarely encountered one who had half a clue.

yea, isn't the so called "sound engineer" one of the bartenders, or better yet the promoter of the night? /sigh

I'm from the school of thought that green = good, red = bad.

quote:

Originally posted by slojo So what about the limiter screw on the back of the mixe - where does that come in in terms of level output? you can whack into the red but have the output right down using that screw - or you can be at 0dB and be peaking right over if it's turned way up. Or is there a nominal setting for it?

Christ, there's a lot of bullshit about this subject. Firstly the "limiter screw" on the back of your pioneer is actually a master attenuator. If you buy a $1000+ piece of equipment, at least make sure you know what the knobs do.

Learn proper gain staging, that is what this is all about and what some crap club engineers don't have a clue on and what is being complained about. You don't need to go in to the red if it's set up properly. Red denotes above 0db, which in simple terms means distortion. The reason some people like going in to the red is that there is a small amount of distortion added, which colours the sound.

When recording (say in to a computer) don't go above 0db on the input, otherwise you are clipping, which is not good for digital recordings.

In a club you can go in to the red (and sometimes you have to because of rubbish gain staging in the system) and it's not the end of the world, especially as in some cases it might be perceived to "sound better" but just remember you are actually distorting the signal.

Stu, where did you get the info about pio's having 8db of headroom above 0db?

I can go 1 or 2 bars in red with my korg zero 8 and sounds ok but still get mindset green is better. But at clubs usually try come in early to do test run to find sweet spot if they let me.

we have angel moraes engineering (old school house legend, engineered some of the best analog systems in the world) the sound where i play... and holy fuck, our system is such a beast you have to be careful...

no red on the xone!!

quote:

Originally posted by Allied Nations we have angel moraes engineering (old school house legend, engineered some of the best analog systems in the world) the sound where i play... and holy fuck, our system is such a beast you have to be careful... no red on the xone!!

Shit, Angel is real legend - and he's your in house engineer? Must sound good, that guy goes waaaaay back and was/is a real pioneer of house.

Thats a name I haven't heard in awhile and all.

quote:

Originally posted by Allied Nations we have angel moraes engineering (old school house legend, engineered some of the best analog systems in the world) the sound where i play... and holy fuck, our system is such a beast you have to be careful... no red on the xone!!

Angel is still alive?!?

quote:

Originally posted by RJT It's just as well, Myra and I were just talking tonight about how "Sound Engineer" is the biggest pisstake of a job title in all of clubland. I've rarely encountered one who had half a clue.

there are some really great ones in clubland, you just have to know where to look.

for instance.

www.systemsbyshorty.com

there are alot of shit ones too.

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