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Shameless promotion - but offering production help...

Hello - this is more of a music producers promotion topic, I've posted my latest song on that forum.

On a production related topic, I'm quite keen to get some feedback on this song, so I'll provide a detailed analysis/ critique of people's songs, for the first ten people to provide me with useful feedback in my other thread.

Here's a link to the track:


Fabrik Europa - Dawn Flight


Please provide the feedback in the other thread if possible! Thanks for listening!

Fabian

Umm,

Why are you posting in here?

You already have a thread in the other forum for this track, you don't need two.

Stop being an ass.

Anyways, here is my response to your track:

It's generic.

There is way too much reverb at the start. In fact throughout the whole track there is way too much reverb in the clap or whatever hits every 2 bars.

The key change at 1:55? Or whatever it is, Seriously you don't need to change the key of your song, it's going to screw up everyone who key matches.

Your melody sounds like something out of the neverending story, I was back there with fucking Atreyu and the child like empress.

The breakdown is far too long.

The kick is sloppy, in fact the percussion needs quite a bit of work, just sounds like someone threw pots and pans in the room where you were recording and your microphone just happened to pick them up.

Your synths are sloppy and the overall loudness of the track isn't constant. You need to master it and tighten up all your sounds. Some synths are too loud, others are too quiet.

Seriously, why do people post track reviews in here? There's a whole fucking forum for it, which you obviously know about since you posted 2 fucking threads i mean what the fucking mcfuck.

I agree with Cetra about the melody, the key change and the reverb.

I don't think the percussion is awful but it could be tweaked and tightened up.

quote:

Originally posted by Cetra� Umm, Why are you posting in here? You already have a thread in the other forum for this track, you don't need two. Stop being an ass. Anyways, here is my response to your track: It's generic. There is way too much reverb at the start. In fact throughout the whole track there is way too much reverb in the clap or whatever hits every 2 bars. The key change at 1:55? Or whatever it is, Seriously you don't need to change the key of your song, it's going to screw up everyone who key matches. Your melody sounds like something out of the neverending story, I was back there with fucking Atreyu and the child like empress. The breakdown is far too long. The kick is sloppy, in fact the percussion needs quite a bit of work, just sounds like someone threw pots and pans in the room where you were recording and your microphone just happened to pick them up. Your synths are sloppy and the overall loudness of the track isn't constant. You need to master it and tighten up all your sounds. Some synths are too loud, others are too quiet. Seriously, why do people post track reviews in here? There's a whole fucking forum for it, which you obviously know about since you posted 2 fucking threads i mean what the fucking mcfuck.

So did you like it or not?

I must admit Derail, I was surprised you created this thread. It seemed unnecessary. All of us really want as much feedback as we can get when we've done a tune but we don't post it in the MP and PS sections and offer feedback to first 10 people. Seemed a little desperate to me. Just do what the rest of us do, post the 1 thread in MP section and give plenty of feedback to other tunes in there (whether or not they have given you any) and you should get plenty of feedback on yours.

Other than this thread, in general I've found you to be one of the most helpful people in this forum so please don't take the above paragraph the wrong way.


Anyway, in regards to the tune, I can't comment at all on the production itself as I've heard this on work laptop. I did find the melody far too cheesy for my taste, the neverending story comparison I did find to be quite fitting. This is personal taste though and there may well be others that love it. It is very generic as well but then so is a lot of trance out there

quote:

Originally posted by [Ocean]State I agree with Cetra about the melody, the key change and the reverb.

quote:

Originally posted by G-Con I did find the melody far too cheesy for my taste, the neverending story comparison I did find to be quite fitting.

Respectfully, I agree with both posts.

Re: Shameless promotion - but offering production help...

quote:

Originally posted by derail On a production related topic, I'm quite keen to get some feedback on this song, so I'll provide a detailed analysis/ critique of people's songs, for the first ten people to provide me with useful feedback in my other thread.

That's what's SUPPOSED to happen in the producers promotion area. What YOU need to do, immediately after posting your own song in that part of the forum, is go and critique 10 tracks and throw in a link to the one you just posted asking for feedback at the end of the critique. Always worked for me. Sometimes you'll get regulars, and then you won't even need to ask, they'll critique yours first... but make sure you return the favor.

So... all I'm saying is YOU need to make the first step. I'm sure it'll pay off.

Oh.. and I'll be happy to critique it, but it wouldn't be fair to do so with the laptop I'm using right now. (Not impressed with Apple's laptop speakers. Hmm)

quote:

Originally posted by 3F05Q That's what's SUPPOSED to happen in the producers promotion area. What YOU need to do, immediately after posting your own song in that part of the forum, is go and critique 10 tracks and throw in a link to the one you just posted asking for feedback at the end of the critique. Always worked for me. Sometimes you'll get regulars, and then you won't even need to ask, they'll critique yours first... but make sure you return the favor.

Good to know! Thank you for the advice

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I don't really understand the point in making music if it's gonna sound terribly overheard/generic.

Be original for god'sakes! Explore, do things, twiddle those knobs dammit!

Make it sound fresh, catchy not flat and innocent.

Spend time perfecting sounds, studying melodic progression using midi effects.

MAKE THAT SHIT WORK BRO'!!

I know someone who keeps sending me tunes to get feedback. He's always so excited like "this is such a huge track bla bla" and then I say "dude, I couldn't even listen to it entirely because I was sure it was gonna sound the same from beginning to end"

Downloaded, but I have to take it home to listen to it (I am at the school library now). Will get back to you on it later.

I decided not to get Internet access at my new apartment, so now I use a portable hard drive to download stuff and take it back and forth.

The lack of Internet has really helped me spend more time on music.

this thread was entertaining and yet truthfull as they all shoud be. i agree with the rest of the gang as regards to your track,you can obviousley make a good tune or thoe this one was to cheesy for me.a great format to try is the cloke and dagger approch keep things intreasting ang keep them gussing.in the mean time keep on making tunes asthe qualtie of the track was good

The composition on that saw lead sounds like you ripped it right from Airbase - Requium

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNskeE2o3SE

In general, the composition on this track makes me want to kill myself. Or grow pigtails and frolic through a magical rainforest. I haven't decided which.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The lack of Internet has really helped me spend more time on music.

LOL , good idea

Bet your balls are filling up tho!

quote:

Originally posted by Cetra� Umm, Why are you posting in here? You already have a thread in the other forum for this track, you don't need two. Stop being an ass. Anyways, here is my response to your track: It's generic. There is way too much reverb at the start. In fact throughout the whole track there is way too much reverb in the clap or whatever hits every 2 bars. The key change at 1:55? Or whatever it is, Seriously you don't need to change the key of your song, it's going to screw up everyone who key matches. Your melody sounds like something out of the neverending story, I was back there with fucking Atreyu and the child like empress. The breakdown is far too long. The kick is sloppy, in fact the percussion needs quite a bit of work, just sounds like someone threw pots and pans in the room where you were recording and your microphone just happened to pick them up. Your synths are sloppy and the overall loudness of the track isn't constant. You need to master it and tighten up all your sounds. Some synths are too loud, others are too quiet. Seriously, why do people post track reviews in here? There's a whole fucking forum for it, which you obviously know about since you posted 2 fucking threads i mean what the fucking mcfuck.

I wanted to get a decent amount of feedback on this one. It's the first time I've posted a song in both forums - I thought it might be frowned upon a little bit, though nothing like this sort of a reaction! Something to learn from.

Is there too much reverb on everything or just certain instruments like the clap? I'm referencing this against tracks which are quite reverb-soaked, rather than the more upfront/clean type of trance.

Regarding key changes - is this an issue for most djs? Would they be mixing into the middle of the song? I wanted to break away slightly from using the bass progression in the intro (or a variation of it) all the way through the song. Should trance songs never have key changes?

Do you have any suggestions for the melody? I'd be interested to hear some examples of songs which you think have strong, distinctive melodies in them. I'm always keen to learn about composition, which melodies work and which don't.

Regarding the overall loudness of the song and instrument levels - which synths should I turn up or turn down? I didn't push the overall level as high as I could have, I wanted to leave a decent amount of dynamic range in the song, achieve a certain flow through dynamics. But if you think this wouldn't work on the dancefloor as a result, let me know. Some examples of songs which you think are mastered well/have "tighter" sounds, would help immensely.

Thanks for listening and providing feedback Cetra!

quote:

Originally posted by [Ocean]State I agree with Cetra about the melody, the key change and the reverb. I don't think the percussion is awful but it could be tweaked and tightened up.

I'd also be interested to hear some examples of songs you like which have nice melodies. It sounds like I'm a little bit out of touch. A lot of songs these days don't seem to have actual melodic lines which would work outside of the underlying chord progression. I'm always keen to hear some songs containing true melodies.

I'll see what other reactions I get and look at what I can do with the percussive elements.

quote:

Originally posted by G-Con I must admit Derail, I was surprised you created this thread. It seemed unnecessary. All of us really want as much feedback as we can get when we've done a tune but we don't post it in the MP and PS sections and offer feedback to first 10 people. Seemed a little desperate to me. Just do what the rest of us do, post the 1 thread in MP section and give plenty of feedback to other tunes in there (whether or not they have given you any) and you should get plenty of feedback on yours.

You're right, I wanted to get as much of a reaction as possible and thought this might be a good way to boost the response. I wasn't sure how much of a no-no this practice was - I'll restrain myself in future.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Cenik Respectfully, I agree with both posts.

Thanks for contributing Nick. There's a pattern developing with regard to the cheesiness of the melody and the amount of reverb. I may post some examples soon of some songs I'm referencing against in terms of the reverb level. They're not the clean, upfront, anjunabeats style song, for sure. But I may well have too much reverb for even the style of trance I'm aiming for. I'll have to pay attention to this.

Re: Re: Shameless promotion - but offering production help...

quote:

Originally posted by 3F05Q That's what's SUPPOSED to happen in the producers promotion area. What YOU need to do, immediately after posting your own song in that part of the forum, is go and critique 10 tracks and throw in a link to the one you just posted asking for feedback at the end of the critique. Always worked for me. Sometimes you'll get regulars, and then you won't even need to ask, they'll critique yours first... but make sure you return the favor.

You're right, I should make more of a habit of critiquing other people's songs. I've been spending time on my own songs, but I should really do some more groundwork in order to build responses to my songs. It's a matter of time, I usually spend at least an hour on each critique I do, to ensure I provide as valuable feedback as I can. So the time soon adds up. But yes, definitely something I need to do more of.

quote:

Originally posted by ponsshin I don't mean to hijack this thread but I don't really understand the point in making music if it's gonna sound terribly overheard/generic. Be original for god'sakes! Explore, do things, twiddle those knobs dammit! Make it sound fresh, catchy not flat and innocent. Spend time perfecting sounds, studying melodic progression using midi effects. MAKE THAT SHIT WORK BRO'!! I know someone who keeps sending me tunes to get feedback. He's always so excited like "this is such a huge track bla bla" and then I say "dude, I couldn't even listen to it entirely because I was sure it was gonna sound the same from beginning to end"

Did you listen to my song at all? You're right, it is reasonably flat, and quite innocent. It's not "edgy" - do you feel every trance song needs to be harder-edged? When you talk about songs being the same from beginning to end, do you mean in consistency of production/sound, or harmonic structure? Because I have a (really annoying, apparently) key change in this one.

Could you clarify what you mean by "studying melodic progression using midi effects"? I'm not clear what you mean by that.

To be a bit constructive....

It sounds like this track is in a Major key, which isn't in itself a bad thing, but it certainly lends itself to the "happy" sound of the track. I can see why a lot of people are saying it sounds "cheesy".

It lacks that feeling of melancholy, ominousness or, more importantly, tension. When writing in a minor key it seems a bit easier to convey those "feelings", even with "uplifting" trance. With a few exceptions, most tracks written in major almost always sound "cheesy" or "commercial" to my ears, although it can be done (see Sundriver - Feel).

Also, I think you can simplify the melodies a lot. It seems like you are trying to fit too many ideas in a single track, which gives the impression that the track is lacking in focus. With rare exceptions, good tracks generally make a single melodic "statement", so that one can point to a favorite track and immediately identify why they like it. ("I like this track because THIS melody is good", etc.). As I have learned the hard way, sometimes its better to arrange a simple track with a singular focus rather than a complex track that is poorly arranged.

Even melodically complex tracks follow a very "classic" structure when it comes to melody: 1. Introduction of a theme, 2. Variation on a theme, 3. Recapitulation of a theme. This type of structure goes way back to the classical days, so it sounds immediately familiar to Western ears.

Anyway, my $.02..

P.S. I'm on a mission to see how many quotes I can fit in a single reply.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo The composition on that saw lead sounds like you ripped it right from Airbase - Requium In general, the composition on this track makes me want to kill myself. Or grow pigtails and frolic through a magical rainforest. I haven't decided which.

Well spotted, Alan. I did use Requiem's arpeggio progression for the backing saw lead. It's an effective progression, but potentially much too distinctive. My thinking was if it's in the background and it's effective, in terms of the overall flow/fits well with the melody above it, then it's fine to leave as is. Potentially I could use something more generic, or tweak the progression a bit.

Wow, this composition really hit some nerves. Whoo. As always, I'd be interested to hear some of your favourite melodic songs currently! I'm more interested in strong melodic lines - Requiem is an excellent song, one of my favourites, but I'd classify the lead as more of an arpeggio sequence rather than a true melody people could actually sing.

quote:

Originally posted by derail As always, I'd be interested to hear some of your favourite melodic songs currently!

Lately, Akesson - Perfect Blue. Simple, yet effective. I've heard several top trance DJ's slate this as one of their favorites at the moment. Simple arrangement, simple melody, but highly effective.

Also, Michael Cassette - Shadows Movement. That track is still on my playlist, great melody line, but again, simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J To be a bit constructive.... It sounds like this track is in a Major key, which isn't in itself a bad thing, but it certainly lends itself to the "happy" sound of the track. I can see why a lot of people are saying it sounds "cheesy". It lacks that feeling of melancholy, ominousness or, more importantly, tension. When writing in a minor key it seems a bit easier to convey those "feelings", even with "uplifting" trance. With a few exceptions, most tracks written in major almost always sound "cheesy" or "commercial" to my ears, although it can be done (see Sundriver - Feel). Also, I think you can simplify the melodies a lot. It seems like you are trying to fit too many ideas in a single track, which gives the impression that the track is lacking in focus. With rare exceptions, good tracks generally make a single melodic "statement", so that one can point to a favorite track and immediately identify why they like it. ("I like this track because THIS melody is good", etc.). As I have learned the hard way, sometimes its better to arrange a simple track with a singular focus rather than a complex track that is poorly arranged. Even melodically complex tracks follow a very "classic" structure when it comes to melody: 1. Introduction of a theme, 2. Variation on a theme, 3. Recapitulation of a theme. This type of structure goes way back to the classical days, so it sounds immediately familiar to Western ears. Anyway, my $.02.. P.S. I'm on a mission to see how many quotes I can fit in a single reply.

Thanks for the response Eric, this is good stuff!

Yes, it's quite a happy melody, not really normal for trance. It seems it could well clear a dancefloor. What would you suggest I do - try to rework it in a minor key? As a melody I think it works well, but potentially it's the wrong musical style for it.

There are two strong harmonic progressions at work in this piece, and they're not really related to each other. I could take out the first one and use a variation of the main theme, but judging by the responses to the main theme, maybe that's not a good idea.

I'll have to think about this stuff some more, obviously.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J Lately, Akesson - Perfect Blue. Simple, yet effective. I've heard several top trance DJ's slate this as one of their favorites at the moment. Simple arrangement, simple melody, but highly effective. Also, Michael Cassette - Shadows Movement. That track is still on my playlist, great melody line, but again, simple.

Thanks for these Eric - I'll be sure to check them out. I'm always up for some good melodies!

quote:

Originally posted by derail What would you suggest I do - try to rework it in a minor key?

Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I'd just start on a new track. No sense in beating yourself up trying to constantly rework this one when you have already put so much time into it. Once you have a track near completion, its very difficult to rework it, because you now have a distorted perspective on how you think it should sound. By the time you rework it, you'll have spent just as much time on a rework than if you just started a new project.

Better to start fresh with a new idea and a new perspective. I know its hard to shelve a track, especially if you have spent a good deal of time working on it, but sometimes it's better to just chalk some tracks up to experience and move on. I hear loads of "big" producers talk about how many unfinished and unreleased projects they have just lying around, so it happens to everyone. It is a natural part of the creative process.

im on a laptop, so i'll be judging this song from what i hear on it.

I'm not a fan of that happy sound at all. Sorry man. It sounds very dated. I don't like the outro, i feel it ends a bit suddenly. Other than that, the mixing needs work (maybe compression on the synths that change volume levels will do the trick rather than just mastering, you don't want to make your song sound worse if you don't know how to master imo.), but I feel that minus the mix, it is on par with pro tracks of that sound, i could see your song in a video game i played called "mabinogi" it totally fits with the vibe of the game and the other songs in that game.

With that said, when i hear trance these days i never hear stuff that's made in major at all. All of us who think that your song sounds generic might be the ones who have generic taste. many of us who like experimental tech/ambient/polka/whatever sounds that are popular today are pretty much conforming. it's really hard to be original.

just a thought.

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