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motu 24i/o upgrade time?

Hey all,

I've been using a motu 24i/o interface for quite some time. Although I know for a fact it's not the worst audio interface out there, nor the best I seem to be reading more and more comments that it's complete junk quality/converter wise.

Or is this just mere speculation? anyone actually a/b'ed the 24i/o up against something like the apogee?

I have two key requirements, #1 lots of in/out for hardware synths and units and #2 best possible quality (without having to sell a kidney).

Bearing in mind that I need at least 24 (preferrably 32) in's and out's to be able to route all my gear in and out of Logic what recommendations are there as a solid upgrade to the 24i/o that will yield a noticeable difference in quality both in recording synths in and in general monitoring/mixing. I don't really record live instruments or vocals that much.

I hear good things of Apogee/Lynx and RME (I did have a multiface at one point on a PC system and the drivers were awful).

Perhaps chain 2 Apogee's together to get 32ins outs ?

Thanks for any info!

Re: motu 24i/o upgrade time?

OK, I'm in the exact same dilemma as you at the moment. Own a 24 I/O, looking to replace it.

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 Hey all, I've been using a motu 24i/o interface for quite some time. Although I know for a fact it's not the worst audio interface out there, nor the best I seem to be reading more and more comments that it's complete junk quality/converter wise.

It depends on what you compare it to. I put it in the "prosumer" category. You aren't going to find too many broke kids using it, but you also aren't going to find it in many higher end studios. So it is somewhere in the middle. I can tell you that once you get high quality monitors, then you'll definitely notice the deficiencies.

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Originally posted by johno27 Or is this just mere speculation? anyone actually a/b'ed the 24i/o up against something like the apogee?

I have not personally compared the 24 I/O with the Apogee, RME or Lynx stuff, but I have been informed by people who HAVE compared the two, that the Lynx is the better sounding out of the three you mentioned here. Personally, I'm saving up for a Aurora 16 myself to replace the 24 I/O. It has less in/out, but the AD/DA conversion is supposed to be second to none.

The Aurora16 definately seems like a solid performer. Just looking on the site and it seems that you'd need 2 interfaces to get 32in/out and you need one AES16e card per interface (so another 2x), unless im mistaken..not sure about sync'ing the 2 or how that would work as opposed to the PCI424 arrangement... cost wise this looks like I might need more than just a kidney..

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 The Aurora16 definately seems like a solid performer. Just looking on the site and it seems that you'd need 2 interfaces to get 32in/out and you need one AES16e card per interface (so another 2x), unless im mistaken..not sure about sync'ing the 2 or how that would work as opposed to the PCI424 arrangement... cost wise this looks like I might need more than just a kidney..

Yes, you'd need 2 AES16 cards for two interfaces. In Mac OS X you can create an "aggregate" audio device that allows you to use two or more audio interfaces as if they were a single unit.

I hear you about the cost, its going to run me in the neighborhood of $4,500 for one of these once I add in the cost of the AES card and cables and such. However, one thing I have discovered lately is that I'd rather sink huge amount of cash into high, high quality stuff rather than keep on buying this mid-grade stuff that just ends up getting replaced anyway. The results are definitely worth it.

I have a guy I work with that can help you sort all this out if need be. PM me if you're interested, I'll put you in touch with him.

Monitor wise i've been using a pair of Tannoy Reveal 6's .. which imho suck. They work well for A/B'ing and I would keep them as more of "hi-end" hifi speaker setup for checking mixes on, but when combined with the 24i/o I'm completely unable to get mixes spot on without having to continually bounce to cds and listen in 10 different places and keep coming back and making adjustments. At the end of the day the goal for me is does this make me a better producer? even if it's just by improving my workflow/efficiency by being able to get the mixdown/rough masters done in studio without having to spend days checking and re-checking mixes in the car on hi-fi's, headphones.. pa systems etc..

I find with the Tannoys (maybe also partly caused by the 24io) that the very low end is well represented, but the mid-bass range is terribly flattered, but in an unusual pattern .. almost like notch filters.. so it's near impossible to balance out those track elements and eq them to make the low end warm and tight and not too over the top.

I'm thinking of getting a pair of either HR824's or the focal twins.

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 Monitor wise i've been using a pair of Tannoy Reveal 6's .. which imho suck. They work well for A/B'ing and I would keep them as more of "hi-end" hifi speaker setup for checking mixes on, but when combined with the 24i/o I'm completely unable to get mixes spot on without having to continually bounce to cds and listen in 10 different places and keep coming back and making adjustments. At the end of the day the goal for me is does this make me a better producer? even if it's just by improving my workflow/efficiency by being able to get the mixdown/rough masters done in studio without having to spend days checking and re-checking mixes in the car on hi-fi's, headphones.. pa systems etc.. I find with the Tannoys (maybe also partly caused by the 24io) that the very low end is well represented, but the mid-bass range is terribly flattered, but in an unusual pattern .. almost like notch filters.. so it's near impossible to balance out those track elements and eq them to make the low end warm and tight and not too over the top.

My guess is that your monitors are more to blame for this than your audio interface. I just made the jump from HR824's to Focal Twin 6's and I can tell you that the difference is HUGE. Even with the Focals plugged into a mid-grade audio interface like the 24 I/O, the improvement is massive. I can't wait until I can upgrade the audio interface as well.

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Originally posted by johno27 I'm thinking of getting a pair of either HR824's or the focal twins.

Considering the problems you described above, I'd recommend staying away from the HR824's. They are very scooped in the mids, and I had the same problems you did with tonal balance, levels and clarity. I've only had the Focals for less than a week, and already my mixdowns sound 100X better than they did on the HR824's, AND they TRANSLATE!! What I hear in the studio is what I hear on my laptop speakers, in the car, etc.

I'm holding on to the HR824's for an A/B reference monitor for the moment, but I'll probably ditch them once I get used to the Focals. They are just in a different league from the HR824's.

You must have some damn good laptop speakers, and car audio if your hearing the same thing as from Focal Twins =)


p.s. Ive used the Apogee Ensemble with Focal Twin 6's....omg. Since then Ive been saving up for the same setup...with nice cables.

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Originally posted by DJ Sound You must have some damn good laptop speakers, and car audio if your hearing the same thing as from Focal Twins =)

Well it's not the SAME thing, it just that it sounds proper on the different systems.

Thats exactly what I'm looking for .. good translation.. i'm really sick of things sounding tip top in studio and then like utter rubbish everywhere else with countless hours of tweaking and wasted cd's Even after the tweaking without being able to make minute adjustments on a good reference system is like stumbling around in the dark.. I think the focal twins are it then. I'll avoid the hr824s.. maybe get a pair of yamaha hs80m's for a/b.. as I can get them for almost nothing.

What about the K&H 0300 vs the Focals?

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Originally posted by johno27 What about the K&H 0300 vs the Focals?

K&H are more expensive and you'll find many people who prefer them to the Focals. This makes sense as they are almost twice the price, $2,200 per speaker versus $3,000 for a pair of Focal Twins. You can also look into the ADAM P33A which are 3 way like the Focals but more in the K&H price range. The thing I hear about the ADAMS is that they are not "pleasant" monitors and can be quite fatiguing after extended sessions, where as the Focals are quite pleasant even for non-critical listening.

You just need to evaluate your budget and decide what you can afford.

can you do the black lion mod to your 24 i/o?...the 828 with that mod is unreal nice

I heard about the black lion mod for the HD192.. no idea if it could be applied to 24i/o or 2408mk3... they've got totally different converters as far as i know.

I think the focals are more in my price range, and when pitted against the K&H's... its much of a muchness after reading some other threads on gearslutz it would seem... and in an imperfect room, with imperfect power with imperfect ears.. i think the focals would more than suffice to bring out top notch mixes. I did read that a one guy switch to running them off a Guardian Pro -6 plugs power conditioner and used a Dangerous Music volume control and he seems to think that made a signifcant improvement to the low end and highs.

http://www.blacklionaudio.com/motu_firewire_mod.html

$595... b/l upgrade to the 24i/o... might be an option.. dang cheaper than $9000.00

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Sound can you do the black lion mod to your 24 i/o?...the 828 with that mod is unreal nice

Mixed opinions on the BLA mods for the MOTU stuff. A lot of people think they aren't worth the money. Personally, I'd feel better about just buying a unit with better converters rather than paying for something aftermarket. Remember, you get what you pay for, especially at this level.

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 I heard about the black lion mod for the HD192.. no idea if it could be applied to 24i/o or 2408mk3... they've got totally different converters as far as i know. I think the focals are more in my price range, and when pitted against the K&H's... its much of a muchness after reading some other threads on gearslutz it would seem... and in an imperfect room, with imperfect power with imperfect ears.. i think the focals would more than suffice to bring out top notch mixes. I did read that a one guy switch to running them off a Guardian Pro -6 plugs power conditioner and used a Dangerous Music volume control and he seems to think that made a signifcant improvement to the low end and highs.

Exactly right. The Focals will stand up well in an untreated room where as the other monitors are really getting into that 5% range of improvement. You are wise to consider the other aspects of your signal path as well. $3,000 monitors going through a $300 monitor controller (read: MBK) is a definite no-no.

Right now I have mine going through a Central Station Passive monitor controller, which isn't terrible since it is passive, but worth improving sooner rather than later. I have the Dangerous Monitor ST on the "must buy" list as an improvement there as well.

All in all, I'll probably end up spending close to $10,000 when you add up the monitors, audio interface and monitor control. The advantage is that at the end of the day I have a squeaky clean signal path and the system will make things MUCH easier in terms of sound selection and mixing. The monitors alone have already paid dividends in improving my mixes and I haven't even had them for a week! It makes future investments in sound generation sources (read: synths & effects) that much more rewarding due to an extremely high quality monitoring system and signal path. No point in getting a badd-ass analog hardware unit if your ADC sucks.

I agree 100%, I'll be looking to go for the Focals/Dangerous Monitor/An upgraded power conditioner some good cabling. Unfortunately I just cannot get away with less than 32 ins/outs.. running up a 9000 dollar dac bill is just out of the question especially thanks to our currency at the moment (9 to the $!!! up from 6 a week ago).

if the $600 mod works.. it may be a far better bet (at least in the meantime until i hit the lottery) to go along with the focals... so many toys to buy, so little time... lol

I'm also trying to add a prophet08 to my collection at the same time, and maybe upgrade my UAD cards to the new quads... and get a poco..

ive heard of tons and tons of people with the black lion mod and everyone ive heard of...loves it..its basically the same parts as the apogee if i rememeber correctly..or similar

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 I agree 100%, I'll be looking to go for the Focals/Dangerous Monitor/An upgraded power conditioner some good cabling.

I'm going with Mogami Gold cabling. The Power conditioner is another thing I'll have to pick up as well.

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 Unfortunately I just cannot get away with less than 32 ins/outs.. running up a 9000 dollar dac bill is just out of the question especially thanks to our currency at the moment (9 to the $!!! up from 6 a week ago).

Totally understand. Its probably going to take me the better part of 2009 to complete all of this.

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 I'm also trying to add a prophet08 to my collection at the same time, and maybe upgrade my UAD cards to the new quads... and get a poco..

You and I seem to have the same taste. The Prophet 08 is next on my list after all the hardware upgrades!

Great thread guys, and it's refreshing to see more of this type of discussion coming up here.

I'm with Eric on the Black Lion mods - if you only have $600 total to spend to upgrade your studio, then the mod would be worth it as you're retaining the original capital investment in the motu, which you probably won't recoup if you sell it.

I hate car analogies (all too prevalent in audio forum discussions for some reason?) but can't help thinking it's like those guys who buy $20k honda cars and pump $50k in to them to make them go like a sportscar, when they could have gone out and bought a Porsche(etc.) in the first place.

But if you can stretch, it's better to go with the lynx system. I've done A/B's against PTDH systems and they are noticeably better.

Have you considered the Apogee symphony? The AD16x's don't suffer so much from the "Apogee sound" and gives you a lot of connectivity (64ch) for the cash, all from one PCI card. It also works out fairly competitive. Just a thought....

There is another option: to get standalone converters (prism, weiss, lavry etc.) then a interface option such as multiple ADAT or single MADI? Probably would not be that cost effective, but second hand it could be an option.

As for speakers, it becomes a case of diminishing returns. Once you're at the level of focal's (in terms of both quality vs. cash) you can easily end up spending a couple of extra grand on other speakers for an incredibly minor difference that might not even fit your personal subjectivity anyway.

Eric, we need that full review!!!!!!!

I've got to say I've heard nothing but praise for the DM ST controller but seriously, $1900 for a monitor volume control? Eric, that has to be pretty low on your list especially as the CS is a darn good and uncolored piece of kit anyway?

As for cables what are you guys considering - I ask because this it's a field I worked in for several years, and is often just an afterthought.

Currently cable wise I've made up all my own using Somner cable and neutrik plugs.. hand wired and soldered.. painstakingkly...

I'm just thinking.. if you're audio interface goes straight into the active speakers.. maybe you can just bypass the whole monitoring part.. i currently do it that was as everything else in my studio goes into the mac/logic via the 24io and then back out.. so i really don't need to monitor anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 Currently cable wise I've made up all my own using Somner cable and neutrik plugs.. hand wired and soldered.. painstakingkly...

Best way to do it unless you know a company that makes handmade cables. Not familiar with Somner - heard of them but never used.

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 I'm just thinking.. if you're audio interface goes straight into the active speakers.. maybe you can just bypass the whole monitoring part.. i currently do it that was as everything else in my studio goes into the mac/logic via the 24io and then back out.. so i really don't need to monitor anything else.

Yes, as long as your fine with your master volume control being in the software domain. As always the less things in the signal chain, the better.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Eric, we need that full review!!!!!!!

I'll have it soon, no worries. I'd want to have them for a little longer than 3 days before I post something up. I don't think they have even had enough hours to be fully broken in yet. That being said, I mixed down a track I wrote a month ago last night in about 2 hours at medium volume and it sounded miles better than anything else I had ever done AND translated properly to other systems with no adjustments at all. So you can take that for what its worth.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I've got to say I've heard nothing but praise for the DM ST controller but seriously, $1900 for a monitor volume control? Eric, that has to be pretty low on your list especially as the CS is a darn good and uncolored piece of kit anyway?

Well there is some discussion on the quality of the CS in regards to stereo spread. Some people who have upgraded from the CS to the ST have noticed that their stereo field was noticably wider when run through the ST. It's definitely not at the top of my priority list ,but I'd hate to spend $8,000 on outstanding monitors and interface, just to have my squeaky clean signal path screwed up by sub-standard monitor control. I'm debating on which to get first: the ST or the Prophet 08. Its a toss up at this point, but I have several months to go before I will need to make that decision, so I have some time to think about it.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN As for cables what are you guys considering - I ask because this it's a field I worked in for several years, and is often just an afterthought.

Currently I'm running with Mogami Gold. They are expensive, but the build quality is superb. I'm not planning on changing that, but I will need new cables when I pick up the Aurora because it uses a DSUB snake with XLR and the MOTU is all TRS, so most of my existing cabling will have to be replaced.

I think for now I'm happy to keep the master volume level in s/w domain. #1 priority is monitors, #2 is either modding the 24io (dpending on feedback) or else going for lynx/apogee.. assuming my kidneys are still worth something on the black market..

quote:

Originally posted by johno27 I think for now I'm happy to keep the master volume level in s/w domain. #1 priority is monitors, #2 is either modding the 24io (dpending on feedback) or else going for lynx/apogee.. assuming my kidneys are still worth something on the black market..

LOL apogee? lynx? When did TAs get so techy?
I have a moded 828mk2 and I am happy with it.
I have it clocked through an external clock though.
I would like one of those better options but for now I am focused more on getting my tracks
sounding good enough.

One better and cheaper option is keeping your 24/io and buying a stereo ad/da convertor like the legendary apogee psx100. The used to retail for $3.000 and are top of the line.
You can get them for $1000. Clock it to the unit and hook it up via spdif.
Your sound will improve because of the the apogee clock.
When you are ready to mix you can record one by one sound module (I am assuming you have hardware units) through the psx and get a really good polished sound without spending 10.000.
It is even going to sound better than the multichannel stuff
This is what I am looking to do in the future.

What about modding the 24i/o WITH the clock mod too?

I'd rather not have to plug synths in one at a time to bounce.. everything is very neatly hardwired into set inputs and configured in my logic template for all my synths, compressors and lexicons etc.. which i often use on send / inserts .. so that should go thru the same quality converters as well.. I think a modded 24io is the cheap middle of the road option.. followed by going apogee/lynx.

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