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Bush's legacy

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Originally posted by Shakka So while you refuse to name specifics by your own admission, your main argument for why he is the worst is based on others' opinions and popularity polls. By those measures we also have a congress that is even worse than Bush! And hell, they probably are. You want to call Bush a bad president, that's fine--he certainly does leave a pretty unfortunate legacy. He came into office at the start of a recession and he's leaving with the financial system in shambles (Neither of which I believe he is directly responsible for, but both of which occurred while he was in office). He fought an extremely unpopular war, though many are hopeful that some good will ultimately come from it. I happen to admire that he was often willing to do what was unpopular--that shows leadership (even if those decisions sometimes turned out to be poorly executed or not quite correct in hindsight). I simply don't need someone else's opinion to tell me what I believe. Positively, he appointed Ben Bernanke, one of the smarter minds in this country to be able to come up with new, innovative ways to deal with the crisis we are seeing now. Bernanke has the unfortunate challenge of dealing with Greenspan's legacy (amazing how Greenspan got high approval marks, but helped sow the seeds for the crisis we're going through now, eh? Another reason I don't believe in opinion polls or approval ratings). I think that Paulson was behind the curve early in '07, but he has come to understand the crisis as well and is throwing everything he's got behind it. Those will probably be two of Bush's most important positive attributes.

Ok Shakka, so lets cover this since you seem so content to make it an issue. My initial refusal was based on a vein attempt to bait me into an argument. Though after your last post I'm intrigued how you could even be taking this stance so I'll bite.

To call Bush's legacy unfortunate is the understatement of the last eight years. He didn't have this thrust upon him, his terrible legacy is the result of bad decisions from the decider. Lets start with that: he is a moron. From the beginning it was evident this was a C student. I don't have to quote you his grades. He has fumbled the english language at every turn. This is not a position for common men. It is the leader of the free world for a leader that aspires to be greater and someone we should all aspire to be. I digress.

Environment

The House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform found in 2007:

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The Bush Administration has engaged in a systematic effort to manipulate climate change science and mislead policymakers and the public about the dangers of global warming.

Lots of things to discuss here. I'll focus on one I'm familiar with. The Bush EPA denied the California waiver, which would have allowed California and other states to set limits on global warming emissions from vehicles. There was absolutely "no reason for the Administration to squash this program." But the Bush EPA appointee Stephen Johnson refused "after having candid conversations with the White House."

Climate change is one of the huge issues we face today and the Bush administration has actively sought to thwart efforts to address it. They've turned the EPA into a spokesman for the oil, gas and car companies. (See this article and Granta Nakayama, a lawyer who has long represented industry interests, to replace Thomas Skinner as head of the EPA's enforcement division.) This is not the only government entity the administration has revamped to fit a political agenda (see Department, Justice). But why listen to me? Bush readily admits his bad environmental record,

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"Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter." He then punched the air while grinning widely, as the rest of those present including Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy looked on in shock. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...olluter%27.html

Justice Department

About that other agency the Justice Department. This administration actively sought a policy of turning the last best hope for non-partisan justice in the country into a right leaning organization. Officials there illegally used �political or ideological� factors in elite recruiting programs. This was peaked with the firing of attorneys fiasco and resignation of Gonzales - a Bush appointee.

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For example, did Bush officials use the department's immense prosecutorial power to attack their enemies? Did they try to influence elections through selective or timely prosecutions? Were U.S. attorneys -- good Republicans all -- removed because they clung to the notion that the law and those who enforce it should be nonpartisan? Yes, they probably were. "It's reprehensible. It's unethical. It's unlawful. It very well may be criminal," Iglesias said in a PBS interview. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opini...ceonline26.html

Warrantless Wiretapping, Signing Statements, Gitmo, and Habeas Corpus

The Bush administration's contempt for the Constitution and rule of law is by no means contained to any one issue. They command as an absolute authority and any attempt to thwart that authority is met with state secrets injunctions.

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The Senate Select Intelligence Committee is looking into allegations from two U.S. military linguists that the government routinely listened in on phone calls of American military and humanitarian aid workers serving overseas. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27107196/

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ABA: President's Bill-Signing Statements Violate the Constitution President Bush's penchant for writing exceptions to laws he has just signed violates the Constitution, an American Bar Association task force says in a report highly critical of the practice. The ABA group, which includes a one-time FBI director and former federal appeals court judge, said the president has overstepped his authority in attaching challenges to hundreds of new laws. http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1153744530713

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Vandeveld described a crisis of conscience over the prisoners' treatment and the ethical handling of cases that led him to quit last month as prosecutor. "I am beginning to have grave misgivings about what I am doing, and what we are doing as a country," he wrote in the Aug. 5 e-mail, which the priest shared with The Associated Press on Monday night. "I no longer want to participate in the system, but I lack the courage to quit. I am married, with four children, and not only will they suffer, I'll lose a lot of friends." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27200615/

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And if you somehow think habeas corpus has not been suspended for American citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are pulled off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented immigrant or an "unlawful enemy combatant" - exactly how are you going to convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you think this attorney general is going to help you?

Lies, Lies, Lies

- WMDs in Iraq
- Link between 9/11 and Iraq
- Iraq was an "imminent threat"
- "clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action"
- U.S. doesn't torture

To mislead the public on anything is a travesty, especially in cause for war. It makes no difference how Iraq is progressing now. The fact this huge blunder was ever started in the first place because of a deliberate act of deception goes against the ideals this country was founded on. Clinton was impeached for getting a blow job, there is more than enough to impeach this President for and it is unfortunate the political climate won't allow it.

So you see, its not any one thing I have a problem with - its everything. A history of bad policy, bad decisions, terrible planning, just a disastrous Presidency. The collimation of systematic failures across the board leads me to my opinions. You're willing to cast aside public polling giving him the worst approval ratings ever. Nixon had to fucking resign to get that low - at least he had the decency to do that much and admit his mistakes.

Re: Bush's legacy

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Originally posted by josh4 He has fumbled the english language at every turn.... ... ... ... The collimation of systematic failures across the board leads me to my opinions.

Wait...I'll respond later, I'm trying to watch college football so I haven't had a chance to read anything yet, but this caught my eye. The what?? You bastardize the English language worse than Bush, Mr. Kettle. Now I'll get to the actual meat of your thread later. Carry on.


p.s. I assume you meant "culmination."

Don't forget rewriting the rules of engagement and making PRE-EMPTIVE WAR a standard around which other countries can now rally.

We have no right to complain of China launches a pre-emptive strike on Taiwan...North Korea against South Korea...Russia against it's neighbors, etc. We started the ball rolling down this slope..and we'd be hypocritical of we condemned others for doing it..

And let's not forget about the debt doubling under Bush to well over $10 trillion...and NON-defense government spending that grew 3X faster than it did during the Clinton years. That will also be his enduring legacy.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Don't forget rewriting the rules of engagement and making PRE-EMPTIVE WAR a standard around which other countries can now rally.

Preemption was already standard international policy. Preventive war was the new revised version.

Now we no longer need a direct threat, we just need circumstances in which a direct threat could theoretically be viable in a hypothetical future.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Don't forget rewriting the rules of engagement and making PRE-EMPTIVE WAR a standard around which other countries can now rally. We have no right to complain of China launches a pre-emptive strike on Taiwan...North Korea against South Korea...Russia against it's neighbors, etc. We started the ball rolling down this slope..and we'd be hypocritical of we condemned others for doing it.. And let's not forget about the debt doubling under Bush to well over $10 trillion...and NON-defense government spending that grew 3X faster than it did during the Clinton years. That will also be his enduring legacy.

Yeah that's not even an exhaustive list, there is plenty more. If anybody wants to contribute, feel free to add to Bush's record of fail. Since some in here unbelievably need it laid out in front of them.

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Originally posted by Shakka Wait...I'll respond later, I'm trying to watch college football so I haven't had a chance to read anything yet, but this caught my eye. The what?? You bastardize the English language worse than Bush, Mr. Kettle. Now I'll get to the actual meat of your thread later. Carry on. p.s. I assume you meant "culmination."

Ah, spelling mistakes, the last resort for anyone in PDD, next to personal attacks. Both things you've been resorting to lately. That's pretty fucking weak even for you. I await your formal rebuttal, but hold no doubt it will be equally as lame.

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Originally posted by josh4 Ah, spelling mistakes, the last resort for anyone in PDD, next to personal attacks. Both things you've been resorting to lately. That's pretty fucking weak even for you. I await your formal rebuttal, but hold no doubt it will be equally as lame.

oh FFS Josh, stop it already with your BS moral high-ground. You're equally as guilty of throwing out personal attacks lately--don't act all high and mighty.

You started this thread because of the question I asked you in the other thread. I asked you specifically how your life had been so negatively impacted by Bush's presidency that you should throw out hyperbolic phrases like, "Can't possibly be any worse than the past 8 years."

To quote you exactly, you said:

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Originally posted by josh4 Can't possibly be any worse than the past 8 years. (That was a cherry just for you.)

Clearly you were baiting me here with your little cherry comment, so when I asked you to please elaborate on how horrible your life has been for the past 8 years because of Bush you said:

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Originally posted by josh4 That's an obvious bait to get into a drawn out point by point confrontation with you that I have no interest in doing.

So you bait me, I take the bait and ask you a question that you refuse to respond to because you say I'm baiting you....yeah, I see how it works in your fucked up little world. No doubt fucked up because George Bush is president.

I never claimed that Bush is a good president or that he leaves a great legacy. To the contrary, I said:

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Originally posted by Shakka he certainly does leave a pretty unfortunate legacy. He came into office at the start of a recession and he's leaving with the financial system in shambles (Neither of which I believe he is directly responsible for, but both of which occurred while he was in office). He fought an extremely unpopular war, though many are hopeful that some good will ultimately come from it. I happen to admire that he was often willing to do what was unpopular--that shows leadership (even if those decisions sometimes turned out to be poorly executed or not quite correct in hindsight). I simply don't need someone else's opinion to tell me what I believe. Positively, he appointed Ben Bernanke, one of the smarter minds in this country to be able to come up with new, innovative ways to deal with the crisis we are seeing now. Bernanke has the unfortunate challenge of dealing with Greenspan's legacy (amazing how Greenspan got high approval marks, but helped sow the seeds for the crisis we're going through now, eh? Another reason I don't believe in opinion polls or approval ratings). I think that Paulson was behind the curve early in '07, but he has come to understand the crisis as well and is throwing everything he's got behind it. Those will probably be two of Bush's most important positive attributes. Also, as far as Volcker, Buffet and the like go--I have nothing but the utmost respect for them, they are very smart and capable people. I would gladly remind you that they are also very supportive of the actions being taken by Fed and Treasury right now, so I'm not sure it's really a point to debate. I've generally taken your Bush criticisms to be more foreign policy related, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Quick--without looking it up on the Internet, tell me what you really know about Volcker.

I merely pointed out that you made a hyperbolic generalization without specifically saying why your life in particular sucks so bad because of Bush. You think history isn't littered with bad presidents who have had the same derision cast on them?

So clearly you have now chosen to bait me with this thread, to which my response means little if anything as I've already conceded that the man will leave a negative legacy. Yay for you Josh.

I could think of many ways that the last 8 years could've been a lot worse. I'm sure you could to if you really put your mind to it.

Yeah, Shakka, Bush was such a GREAT president! Like seriously ... intelligent, witty, great deicision maker and very articulate. Here are some of my favourite things he has said over the course of his presidency (I doubt you'll find any other president as AMAZING as Bush when it comes to this). On a serious point - a president just cant get any worse than this:

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"One of the interesting initiatives we've taken in Washington, D.C., is we've got these vampire-busting devices. A vampire is a�a cell deal you can plug in the wall to charge your cell phone."�Denver, CO. Aug. 14, 2001 "Well, it's an unimaginable honor to be the president during the Fourth of July of this country. It means what these words say, for starters. The great inalienable rights of our country. We're blessed with such values in America. And I--it's--I'm a proud man to be the nation based upon such wonderful values."--Visiting the Jefferson Memorial, Washington, D.C., July 2, 2001 "The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants."�Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001 "The great thing about America is everybody should vote."-Austin, Texas, Dec. 8, 2000 "It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."--Reuters, May 5, 2000 "I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question."� Reynoldsburg, Ohio, Oct. 4, 2000 "Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods."�Austin, Texas, Dec. 20, 2000 "I'm a uniter not a divider. That means when it comes time to sew up your chest cavity, we use stitches as opposed to opening it up." -- Bush, on David Letterman, March 2, 2000. (the audience booed) "I didn't -- I swear I didn't -- get into politics to feather my nest or feather my friends' nests." -- Bush Jr., in the Houston Chronicle " Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat. " -- Washington, D.C.; September 17, 2004. " In other words, I don't think people ought to be compelled to make the decision which they think is best for their family. " -- Washington, D.C.; December 11, 2002. " They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program. " -- St. Charles, Missouri; November 2, 2000. " If you're a young person, you ought to be asking members of Congress and the United States Senate and the president what you intend to do about it. If you see a train wreck coming, you ought to be saying, 'What are you going to do about it, Mr. Congressman, or Madam Congressman?' " -- Detroit, Michigan; February 8, 2005. " It's evolutionary, going from governor to president, and this is a significant step, to be able to vote for yourself on the ballot, and I'll be able to do so next fall, I hope. " -- Interview with The Associated Press; March 8, 2000. " It's very important for folks to understand that when there's more trade, there's more commerce. " -- Quebec City, Canada; April 21, 2001. " But if you've been laid off work, you're 100 percent unemployed, and I worry about it. " -- Green Bay, Wisconsin; September 3, 2001. " Oftentimes, we live in a processed world -- you know, people focus on the process and not the results. " -- Washington, D.C.; May 29, 2003. " Dick Cheney and I do not want this nation to be in a recession. We want anybody who can find work to be able to find work. " -- on CBS's 60 Minutes II; December 5, 2000. " We are still being challenged in Iraq and the reason why is a free Iraq will be a major defeat in the cause of freedom. " -- Charlotte, North Carolina; April 5, 2004. " I am the master of low expectations. " -- Aboard Air Force One; June 4, 2003. " We though we were protected forever from trade policy or terrorist attacks because oceans protected us. " -- Speech to business leaders at APEC Summit; Santiago, Chile; November 20, 2004. " I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but for predecessors as well. " -- Washington, D.C.; January 29, 2001. " We cannot let terrorists and rogue nations hold this nation hostile or hold our allies hostile. " -- Des Moines, Iowa; August 21, 2000. " Listen, whoever thought about modernizing this room deserves a lot of credit. Like, there's very little oxygen in here anymore. " -- On the confines of the White House's Brady Press Briefing Room; Washington, D.C.; March 16, 2005. MY TOP 70 #70. " We don't want to discourage the innovators and those who take risks because they're afraid of getting sued by a lawsuit. " -- Washington, D.C.; June 24, 2004. #69. " We need an energy bill that encourages consumption. " -- Trenton, New Jersey; September 23, 2002. #68. " Neither in French nor in English nor in Mexican. " -- Declining to answer reporters' questions at the summit of the Americas; Quebec City, Canada; April 21, 2001. #67. The Bob Jones policy on interracial dating, I mean I spoke out on interracial dating, I spoke against that. I spoke out against interracial dating. I support the policy of interracial dating. " -- CBS Evening News; February 25, 2000. #66. " The important question is, how many hands have I shaked. " -- Answering a question about why he hasn't spent more time in Hew Hampshire; as quoted in New York Times; October 23, 1999. #65. " See, we--love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They hate things, we love things. They act out of hatred, we don't seek revenge, we see justice out of love. " -- Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; August 29, 2002. #64. " We spent a lot of time talking about Africa, as we should. Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease. " -- Gothenburg, Sweden; June 14, 2001. #63. Redefining the role of United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment. " -- Interview with New York Times; January 14, 2001. #62. " We've had leaks out of the Administrative Branch, had leaks out of Legislative Branch, and out of the Executive Branch and the Legislative Branch, and I've spoken out consistently against them, and I want to know who the leakers are. " -- Chicago, Illinois; September 30, 2003. #61. " If you found somebody that had information about an attack on America, you'd want to know as best as we can to find out what the facts are. " -- Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, December 12, 2005. #60. " These people don't have tanks. They don't have ships. The hide in caves. They send suiciders out. " -- Speaking about terrorists; Portsmouth, New Hampshire; November 1, 2002. #59. " I like the idea of people running for office. There's a positive effect when you run for office. Maybe some will run for office and say, vote for me, I look forward to blowing up America. I don't know, I don't know if that will be their platform or not. But it's--I don't think so. I think people who generally run for office say, vote for me, I'm looking forward to fixing your potholes, or making sure you got bread on the table. " -- Washington, D.C.; March 16, 2005. #58. " I'm looking forward to a good night's sleep on the soil of a friend. " -- On the prospect of vising Denmark; Washington, D.C.; June 29, 2005. #57. " Governor, thank you very much. I am here to make an announcement that this thursday, ticket counters and airplanes will fly out of Ronald Reagan Airport. " -- Arlington, Virginia; October 2, 2001. #56. " The reason I believe in a large tax cut is because it's what I believe." -- Washington, D.C.; December 18, 2000. #55. " I think we were welcomed. But it was not a peaceful welcome. " -- On the reception of American forces in Iraq; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; December 12, 2005. #54. If affirmative action means what I just described, what I am for, then I'm for it. " -- St. Louis, Missouri; October 18, 2000. #53. " First we would not accept a treaty that would not have been ratified, nor a treaty that I thought made sense for the country. " -- Interview with Washington Post; April 24, 2001. #52. " I want you to know that farmers are not going to be secondary thoughts to a Bush administration. They will be in the forethought of our thinking. " -- Salinas, California; August 10, 2000. #51. " I am thrilled to be here in the breadbasket of America because it gives me a chance to remind our fellow citizens that we have an advantage here in America - we can feed ourselves. " -- Stockton, California; August 23, 2002. 50 - 31 #50. " I have a different vision of leadership. A leadership is someone who brings people together. " -- Bartlett, Tennessee; August 18, 2000. #49. " Will the highways on the Internet become more few? " -- Concord, New Hampshire; January 29, 2000. #48. " Listen, I want to thank leaders of the--in the faith--faith-based and community-based community for being here. " -- Washington, D.C.; September 6, 2005. #47. " I think we ought to raise the age at which the juveniles can have a gun. " -- St. Louis, Missouri; October 18, 2000. #46. " I was a prisoner, too, but for bad reasons. " -- To Argentine president Nestor Kirchner, on being told that all but one of the Argentine delegates to a summit meeting were imprisoned during a dictatorship; Monterrey, Mexico; January, 13, 2004. #45. " I repeat, personal accounts do not permanently fix the solution. " -- Washington, D.C.; March 16, 2005. #44. " The fundamental question is, 'Will I be a successful president when it comes to foreign policy?' I will be, but until I am the president, it's going to be hard for me to verify that I think I'll be more effective. " -- Wayne, Michigan; June 28, 2000. #43. " My administration has been calling upon all the leaders in the--in the Middle East to do everything they can to stop the violence, to tell the different parties involved that peace will never happen. " -- Crawford, Texas; August 13, 2001. #42. " I like my buddies from West Texas. I liked them when I was young, I liked them when I was middle-age, I liked them before I was president, and I like them during president, and I like them after president. " -- Nashville, Tennessee; February 1, 2006. #41. " The best way to find these terrorists who hide in holes is to get people coming forth to describe the location of the hole, is to give clues and data. " -- Washington, D.C.; December 15, 2003. #40. " Presidents, whether things are good or bad, get the blame, I understand that. " -- Washington, D.C.; May 11, 2001. #39. " We expect the states to show us whether or not we're achieving simple objectives - like literacy, literacy in math, the ability to read and white. " -- On federal education requirements; Washington, D.C.; April 28, 2005. #38. " The administration I'll bring is a group of men and women who are focused on what's best for America, honest men and women, descent men and women, women who will see service to our country as a great privilege and who will not stain the house." -- Des Moines, Iowa; January 15, 2000. #37. " One of the hardest parts of my job is to console the family members who have lost their life. " -- Washington, D.C.; April 13, 2004. #36. "As you can possibly see, I have an injury myself--not here at the hospital, but in combat with cedar. I eventually won. The cedar gave me a little scratch. " -- After visiting with wounded veterans from the Amputee Care Center of Brooke Army Medical Center; San Antonio, Texas; January 1, 2006. #35. " Now, we talked to Joan Hanover. She and her husband, George, were visiting with us. They are near retirement--retiring--in the process of retiring, meaning they're very smart, active, capable people who are retirement age and are retiring. " -- Alexandria, Virginia; February 12, 2003. #34. " Too many good docs are getting out of business. To many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across the country. " -- Poplar Bluff, Missouri; September 6, 2004. #33. " Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream. " -- La Crosse, Wisconsin; October 18, 2000. #32. " It is clear that our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from abroad." -- Beaverton, Oregon; September 25, 2000. #31. " It's a time of sorrow and sadness when we lose a loss of life. " -- Washington, D.C.; December 21, 2004. 30 - 11 #30. " See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop the weapons of mass destruction. " -- Milwaukee, Wisconsin; October 3, 2003. #29. " I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe, and what I believe -- I believe what I believe is right. " -- Rome, Italy; July 22, 2001. #28. " I mean, there was a serious international effort to say to Saddam Hussein, you're a threat. And the 9/11 attacks extenuated that thread, as far as I--concerned. " -- Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; December 12, 2005. #27. " I think anybody who doesn't think I am smart enough to handle the job is underestimating. " -- As quoted in U.S. News & World Report; April 3, 2000. #26. "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning? " -- Florence, South Carolina; January 11, 2000. #25. It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet. " -- Arlington Heights, Illinois; October 24, 2000. #24. " We're concerned about AIDS inside our White House -- make no mistake about it. " -- Washington, D.C.; February 7, 2001. #23. " For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three nonfatal shootings. And, folks, that is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it. " -- Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; May 14, 2001. #22. " I want to thank you for taking time out of your day to come and witness my hanging. " -- At the dedication of his portrait; Austin, Texas; January 4, 2002. #21. " The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the -- the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice. " -- Washington, D.C.; October 28, 2003. #20. " The CIA laid out several scenarios and said life could be lousy, life could be okay, life could be better, and they were just guessing as to what the conditions might be like. " -- New York, New York; September 21, 2004. #19. " It would be a mistake for the United States Senate to allow any kind of human cloning to come out of that chamber. " -- Washington, D.C.; April 10, 2002. #18. " He was a state sponsor of terror. In other words, the government had declared, you are a state sponsor of terror. " -- On Saddam Hussein; Manhattan, Kansas; January 23, 2006. #17. " That's why I went to Congress last September and proposed fundamental-supplemental funding, which is money for armor and body parts and ammunition and fuel. " -- Erie, Pennsylvania; September 4, 2004. #16. " I didn't join the International Criminal Court because I don't want to put our troops in the hands of prosecutors from other nations. Look, if somebody has done some wrong in our military, we'll take care of it. We got plenty of capability of dealing with justice. " -- Niceville, Florida; August 10, 2004. #15. " I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family. " -- Nashua, New Hampshire; January 27, 2000. #14. " I want to thank my friend, Senator Bill Frist, for joining us today ... He married a Texas girl, I want you to know. Karyn is with us. A West Texas girl, just like me. " -- Nashville, Tennessee; May 27, 2004. #13. " By the way, we rank tenth amongst the industrialized world in broadband technology and its availability. That's not good enough for America. Tenth is ten spots too low as far as I'm concerned. " -- Minneapolis, Minnesota; April 26, 2004. #12. " It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way. " -- Washington, D.C.; April 28, 2005. #11. " I want everybody to hear loud and clear that I'm going to be the president of everybody. " -- Washington, D.C.; January 18, 2001. 10 - 1 #10. " This notion that United States is getting ready to attack Iran is simply ridiculous. And having said that, all options are on the table. " -- Brussels, Belgium; February 22, 2005. #9. " I'm honoured to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein. " -- Washington, D.C.; May 25, 2004. #8. " Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. " -- Washington, D.C.; August 5, 2004. #7. "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just as long as I'm the dictator. " -- Washington, D.C.; December 18, 2002. #6. " Well, we've made the decision to defeat the terrorists abroad so we don't have to face them here at home. And when you engage the terrorists abroad, it causes activity and action. " -- Washington, D.C.; April 28, 2005. #5. " The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to terrorize himself. " -- Grand Rapids, Michigan; January 29, 2002. #4. " I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully. " -- Saginaw, Michigan; September 29, 2000. #3. " And so, in my State of the -- my State of the Union -- or state -- my speech to the nation, whatever you want to call it, speech to the nation -- I asked Americans to give four thousand years -- four thousand hours over the next -- the rest of your life -- of service to America. That's what I asked -- four thousand hours. " -- Bridgeport, Connecticut; April 9, 2002. #2. " Those who enter the country illegally violate the law. " -- Tucson, Arizona; November 28, 2005. #1. "It's your money. You paid for it. " -- La Crosse, Wisconsin; October 18, 2000.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Yeah, Shakka, Bush was such a GREAT president! Like seriously ... intelligent, witty, great deicision maker and very articulate. Here are some of my favourite things he has said over the course of his presidency (I doubt you'll find any other president as AMAZING as Bush when it comes to this). On a serious point - a president just cant get any worse than this:

Where did I say he was great? Why don't you think it can't get worse? Setting the bar pretty low aren't you?

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Originally posted by Shakka Where did I say he was great? Why don't you think it can't get worse? Setting the bar pretty low aren't you?

Well, of course the US of A can turn into a dictatorship and whatever the other form of authoritarian regime, the clauses are there set in place, and Bush actually accelerated the process by proving that he can put Constitution-contradicting legislature and get away with it. So in a way he was one of the worst presidents in American history. Now the next generation of presidents can continue the process! So yes, it makes Bush a very very bad president! Instead of furthermore protecting American Constitution, he did pretty much quite the opposite. At a critical time for USA, too.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Well, of course the US of A can turn into a dictatorship and whatever the other form of authoritarian regime, the clauses are there set in place, and Bush actually accelerated the process by proving that he can put Constitution-contradicting legislature and get away with it. So in a way he was one of the worst presidents in American history. Now the next generation of presidents can continue the process! So yes, it makes Bush a very very bad president! Instead of furthermore protecting American Constitution, he did pretty much quite the opposite. At a critical time for USA, too.

Yes exactly. That's my whole problem with no one getting punished. That sets up precedents for future Presidents to follow. This one only choose to go as far as he did these past 8 years but what's to stop the next ones of going further? Nothing by these standards.

Bush's legacy? LOL Bush is a fucking puppet.

Let's talk about Prescott's legacy.

Does anyone even know who George Herbert Walker was??

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Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Bush's legacy? LOL Bush is a fucking puppet. Let's talk about Prescott's legacy. Does anyone even know who George Herbert Walker was??

lets keep the Tin Foil out for now.....

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Was George W. Bush the Worst President? A historian urges us to take a deep breath before we answer. By THOMAS FLEMING Several polls of historians have named George W. Bush the worst president in American history. This baffles me. I've been writing about presidents for a long time. What I know, and what I presume these gentleman know, doesn't connect. [Commentary] AP Is Mr. Bush worse than John Adams? When a shooting war at sea started between the United States and revolutionary France in 1798, Honest John wrote a letter to George Washington, offering to resign so that George could resume the job. How's that for presidential leadership? Meanwhile, Adams had kept Washington's cabinet officers on the job, although he loathed them. He finally fired them in a fit of hysteria, which made them wonder if he had lost his mind. Is Mr. Bush worse than Thomas Jefferson in his second term? Rather than build a decent navy to deal with the British -- who had a habit of boarding American ships on the high seas and forcing kidnapped sailors into semislavery -- Jefferson declared an embargo on all trade with England and the rest of Europe. The American economy came to a horrific standstill; smuggling became New England's chief industry. Someone described the embargo as "cutting a man's throat to cure a nosebleed." Nonplussed, Jefferson quit, telling only James Madison, his secretary of state, who was de facto acting president for the last year of Tom's term. James Madison, who officially succeeded Jefferson in 1808, made presidential passivity into an art form. "Little Jemmy," as they called him in New England, watched while 4,500 British troops disembarked from their ships, marched to Washington, D.C., and burned the White House, the Capitol and almost everything else worth torching. You can't do much worse as a war leader than that performance. Woodrow Wilson? When World War I exploded, Irish-Americans objected to his pro-British tilt. Wilson responded that ethnics like these loudmouthed micks were "pouring poison into the veins of our national life," alienating the largest voting bloc in the Democratic Party. Meanwhile, as a Southern-born pol to his wingtips, he segregated almost all employees of the federal government. Next, Wilson talked Congress into declaring war on Germany on the assumption that we would not have to send a single soldier to France. Before the war ended, we had 2,000,000 troops overseas, and in three months of fighting lost 144,000 men. Elected by seven million votes thanks to the electorate's loathing for Wilson, Warren G. Harding confessed to reporters that he was not up to the job. He told one newsman that he wanted to make the U.S. tariff higher than the Rocky Mountains to help Europe's industries recover from World War I. The appalled reporter realized the president had one of the biggest issues of the era exactly backward. Harding had a concealed box at the Gayety Burlesque Theater where he spent many afternoons and nights. In the leftover hours he concentrated on poker and trysts with a blonde named Nan Britton -- reputedly in a closet off the Oval Office -- while his appointees looted the federal government. Is Mr. Bush worse than Roosevelt in his second term? Re-elected by a massive majority, FDR wanted to pack the Supreme Court with Democrats. Congress, dominated by members of his own party, wasted a year wrangling over the bill and ultimately rejected it. Meanwhile, FDR's intemperate remarks about greedy businessmen wrecked confidence and triggered a semireplay of the Great Depression in 1937. The Republicans made massive gains in the 1938 midterm elections. FDR was rescued from an exit even more humiliating than Jefferson's by World War II, which he used as an excuse to run for a third term. Worse than Jimmy Carter, the self- proclaimed Washington "outsider" who presided over the most horrendous stagflation in our history? As his poll numbers sank, Mr. Carter had the temerity to lecture citizens on their "crisis of spirit." His approval rating had plummeted to 22% when Ronald Reagan defeated him. Let us skip Bill Clinton. He and Bush are too contiguous; proximity makes comparisons inevitably rancorous. My purpose is not to denigrate these men. John Adams had great political courage. He often espoused unpopular views, warning us, among other things, that a majority can be as tyrannical as a king or dictator -- something that we may need to remember in the next few years. Thomas Jefferson displayed good judgment in his first term when he put aside his ideological scruples and purchased the Louisiana Territory. James Madison deserves admiration for the way he gave his remarkable wife, Dolley, a chance to create the role of First Lady and establish women as important political players. Woodrow Wilson's idealism was flawed, but his vision of America's role as a world power was profound. FDR's masterful confrontation with the fear created by the Great Depression made his first term an unforgettable achievement. In this light, however wavering, maybe it's time to suspend the rush to judgment on George W. Bush for 10 or 20 years. I suspect we will decide Mr. Bush's first term, with his decisive response to 9/11, deserves some praise, and that his second term succumbed to an awesome amount of bad luck, from his generals' disagreements on how to fight the war in Iraq to the Wall Street collapse of 2008. Many presidents have run out of luck in their second terms, but Mr. Bush's record in this department will be hard to match. Beyond the popularity polls there may be a dimension we should remember in judging every president: sympathy. Mr. Fleming is a former president of the Society of American Historians. His most recent book, "The Perils of Peace, America's Struggle to Survive After Yorktown," (Smithsonian) has just been issued in paperback.

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Originally posted by Shakka

while i agree that it is far too early to label bush as 'the worst president of all time' because his policies are still playing out and we have no idea what kind of long term impact they will have, i don't think it is fair to make a comparison to former presidents without putting them into context of their times.

In any event, the author losses some credibility when he says that a presidential comment about 'greedy businessmen' almost triggered a semi-replay of the great depression. His intimation that most of Bush's failures were due to bad luck also doesn't help the article's failed attempt at persuasion.

BTW - great img in your sig!! I love it (not the actual policy, but u get my drift)

I believe Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's vice president, was the worst. But Bush isn't too far behind him. A fear monger, war monger, liar, deceiver, ignorant, klutz, hypocritical capitalist, laissez-faire puppet of industry, a lobbyist' best friend, corrupter of the constitution, destroyer of international peace, manipulator of the world (especially the UN)...the man gets no love from me. If I had my way, I'd charge his administration for war crimes, Colon Powell included for lying to the UN Security Council.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 BTW - great img in your sig!! I love it (not the actual policy, but u get my drift)

Thanks. Though it appears the sig-nazis have thwarted me again! I shall try anew.

Funny...... Like any Emmo here can relate to the President of the United States. Typical Liberal agenda. Judge but not be judged or be called a racist.

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Originally posted by Krypton I believe Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's vice president, was the worst. But Bush isn't too far behind him. A fear monger, war monger, liar, deceiver, ignorant, klutz, hypocritical capitalist, laissez-faire puppet of industry, a lobbyist' best friend, corrupter of the constitution, destroyer of international peace, manipulator of the world (especially the UN)...the man gets no love from me. If I had my way, I'd charge his administration for war crimes, Colon Powell included for lying to the UN Security Council.

Hey what was the last service you have done for your comunity?.........................

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Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS Hey what was the last service you have done for your comunity?.........................

Why the fuck do you care? I know, I'm supposed to be a bot of the government even when they do fucked up shit...I get it...

now fuck off

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Originally posted by Krypton Why the fuck do you care? I know, I'm supposed to be a bot of the government even when they do fucked up shit...I get it... now fuck off

Hey apologize for calling you a lilly ass last time. People like you will never move this country forward. Just how it is. Bush was a man handler regardless of the public eye. I hope it doesnt take Obama too long to find out but it will finally sink in how shit goes down. The GAYEST of Liberalism cant defy that........ There is reason why Liberals are called pussies. Right? I am not making shit up here. Politics is not there jungle. BUSH WAS A FUCKING HERO!

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Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS Hey apologize for calling you a lilly ass last time. People like you will never move this country forward. Just how it is. Bush was a man handler regardless of the public eye. I hope it doesnt take Obama too long to find out but it will finally sink in how shit goes down. The GAYEST of Liberalism cant defy that........ There is reason why Liberals are called pussies. Right? I am not making shit up here. Politics is not there jungle. BUSH WAS A FUCKING HERO!

right, bitching about liberals totally moves this country forward...

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Originally posted by Krypton right, bitching about liberals totally moves this country forward...

That wasnt bitching that was an explanation. Either way dude or lilly. Watch how quick his hairs grey. Humanity is invading this guy just like it with did Bush. In the end the last thing in thier mind cant be politics but reason. I guess only TA's with kids could understand.

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Originally posted by BARS-N-STARS That wasnt bitching that was an explanation. Either way dude or lilly. Watch how quick his hairs grey. Humanity is invading this guy just like it with did Bush. In the end the last thing in thier mind cant be politics but reason. I guess only TA's with kids could understand.

Explanation of what? What is your point?

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Originally posted by Krypton Explanation of what? What is your point?

Bush was human and a good person.............

Thats is on topic... Try it sometime.

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